Reagan vs Obama Debate

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
how is giving everyone health care going to make usa a fascist tyranny, I dont see the logic in this arguments
against the health care reform. All countries in western europa have puplic health care, but we have a democratic system and civil rights and no patriotic act. Usa have today no public health care, a less democratic system and a federal attack on your rights with the patriotic act. I cant see how this form of change is hurting your freedom.[/quote]

You do not understand economic freedom. See you like to divide freedom civil and economic. But true freedom is when you have both. This is a bill that would take a lot from a lot of people, western Europa “free” health care is a joke, if a woman has breast cancer she has a 49% chance to die, here in America she has a 91% chance to live. You system tells people we are sorry you are to much of a burden to the state please go somewhere and die. While our system while not perfect heals more people then a socialist system like western Europe’s ever could.

We are a constitutional republic, democracies are an evil form of government. Nothing but the simple majority oppressing the minority.

Britain has the biggest big brother program alive, camera’s all over the place. While my country is not perfect you would do best to remove that giant plank from your eye before you tell me about the sliver in mine.
[/quote]

I think it is you that does not understand freedom, there are many oppressive powers, and some of them are big business. They take from the poor and give to the rich.

Example 1 credit card companies give people points that can be used to buy thing and fly places, when they use their credit Cards. The merchant that receives your credit card marks up all of his merchandise so he can pay the Credit Card companies his fee so they can pay you your points.

The poorest of us that do not use credit cards have to pay that fee so that you can get your points. I donâ??t know about you but I call that a tax, imposed by a private Corp. on the poorest of our society

Now I can here all of you free marketers, the poor person should move to a poor country that only does business in the currency of goats

[florelius]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
how is giving everyone health care going to make usa a fascist tyranny, I dont see the logic in this arguments
against the health care reform. All countries in western europa have puplic health care, but we have a democratic system and civil rights and no patriotic act. Usa have today no public health care, a less democratic system and a federal attack on your rights with the patriotic act. I cant see how this form of change is hurting your freedom.[/quote]

You do not understand economic freedom. See you like to divide freedom civil and economic. But true freedom is when you have both. This is a bill that would take a lot from a lot of people, western Europa “free” health care is a joke, if a woman has breast cancer she has a 49% chance to die, here in America she has a 91% chance to live. You system tells people we are sorry you are to much of a burden to the state please go somewhere and die. While our system while not perfect heals more people then a socialist system like western Europe’s ever could.

We are a constitutional republic, democracies are an evil form of government. Nothing but the simple majority oppressing the minority.

Britain has the biggest big brother program alive, camera’s all over the place. While my country is not perfect you would do best to remove that giant plank from your eye before you tell me about the sliver in mine.
[/quote]

I am not against economic freedom, but my ide of this freedom is different than yours. let us leave it to that because you are a libertarian and I am a leftradical so our wiews of freedom are globes apart.

I live in western europa and the health care system in my country works fine, its not perfect because the neoliberals public managment reforms ( its markedrule in public sector, its a big problem ). maybe it is a joke in other europeen countries, but not in mine.

democracy its not evil if its a true democracy. the opposit of democracy is oligarcy, that is bad for the public. ps. the world is not divided between good and evil. its divided between interrests.

[KneeDragger_79]

So because someone is irresponsible with their credit, there should be a system in place to give them a free ride? I will not pay for someone else and their fuck up. That’s just me though.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think it is you that does not understand freedom, there are many oppressive powers, and some of them are big business. They take from the poor and give to the rich.

Example 1 credit card companies give people points that can be used to buy thing and fly places, when they use their credit Cards. The merchant that receives your credit card marks up all of his merchandise so he can pay the Credit Card companies his fee so they can pay you your points.

The poorest of us that do not use credit cards have to pay that fee so that you can get your points. I donâ??t know about you but I call that a tax, imposed by a private Corp. on the poorest of our society

Now I can here all of you free marketers, the poor person should move to a poor country that only does business in the currency of goats
[/quote]

[John_S1]

[quote]florelius wrote:

I live in western europa and the health care system in my country works fine, its not perfect because the neoliberals public managment reforms ( its markedrule in public sector, its a big problem ). maybe it is a joke in other europeen countries, but not in mine.

democracy its not evil if its a true democracy. the opposit of democracy is oligarcy, that is bad for the public. ps. the world is not divided between good and evil. its divided between interrests.

[/quote]

With cancer survival rates especially America out preforms western Europe, this is a fact. So saying we need to move to your system while our system is better doesn’t make sense. We can talk about the costs, but I think that the free market side of the debate has shown what needs to be fixed in the system to bring costs down(this is what eventually will happen, whether it is this congress or the congress we bring in at the end of the year).

Democracy is the will of the slight majority oppressing the minority. A constitutional republic is the only correct way to have government, as you can see my country stopped following it because they had an idea they where a democracy and now we are about to enter a currency crisis(much like western Europe is).

The world is divided by patriots and tyrants.

[pittbulll]

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So because someone is irresponsible with their credit, there should be a system in place to give them a free ride? I will not pay for someone else and their fuck up. That’s just me though.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think it is you that does not understand freedom, there are many oppressive powers, and some of them are big business. They take from the poor and give to the rich.

Example 1 credit card companies give people points that can be used to buy thing and fly places, when they use their credit Cards. The merchant that receives your credit card marks up all of his merchandise so he can pay the Credit Card companies his fee so they can pay you your points.

The poorest of us that do not use credit cards have to pay that fee so that you can get your points. I don�¢??t know about you but I call that a tax, imposed by a private Corp. on the poorest of our society

Now I can here all of you free marketers, the poor person should move to a poor country that only does business in the currency of goats
[/quote]
[/quote]

no one was irresponsible , it happens every day if you pay cash you pay a tax the credit card companies have levied on all merchandise that a retailer sells if the take credit cards

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

I live in western europa and the health care system in my country works fine, its not perfect because the neoliberals public managment reforms ( its markedrule in public sector, its a big problem ). maybe it is a joke in other europeen countries, but not in mine.

democracy its not evil if its a true democracy. the opposit of democracy is oligarcy, that is bad for the public. ps. the world is not divided between good and evil. its divided between interrests.

I am sure you mean , if you have Ins. then you stand a better chance of surviving cancer. If you don’t you might as well be in Haitie
[/quote]

With cancer survival rates especially America out preforms western Europe, this is a fact. So saying we need to move to your system while our system is better doesn’t make sense. We can talk about the costs, but I think that the free market side of the debate has shown what needs to be fixed in the system to bring costs down(this is what eventually will happen, whether it is this congress or the congress we bring in at the end of the year).

Democracy is the will of the slight majority oppressing the minority. A constitutional republic is the only correct way to have government, as you can see my country stopped following it because they had an idea they where a democracy and now we are about to enter a currency crisis(much like western Europe is).

The world is divided by patriots and tyrants. [/quote]

[lanchefan1]

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So because someone is irresponsible with their credit, there should be a system in place to give them a free ride? I will not pay for someone else and their fuck up. That’s just me though.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think it is you that does not understand freedom, there are many oppressive powers, and some of them are big business. They take from the poor and give to the rich.

Example 1 credit card companies give people points that can be used to buy thing and fly places, when they use their credit Cards. The merchant that receives your credit card marks up all of his merchandise so he can pay the Credit Card companies his fee so they can pay you your points.

The poorest of us that do not use credit cards have to pay that fee so that you can get your points. I don�¢??t know about you but I call that a tax, imposed by a private Corp. on the poorest of our society

Now I can here all of you free marketers, the poor person should move to a poor country that only does business in the currency of goats
[/quote]
[/quote]

I think you missed his point Kneedragger. It’s not about being irresponsible, it’s about the fee the credit card companies charge a business for the privledge of being able to run a credit card.

Also unfortunately we all pay for the irresponsible (see bailouts and bankruptcy).

[pittbulll]

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So because someone is irresponsible with their credit, there should be a system in place to give them a free ride? I will not pay for someone else and their fuck up. That’s just me though.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think it is you that does not understand freedom, there are many oppressive powers, and some of them are big business. They take from the poor and give to the rich.

Example 1 credit card companies give people points that can be used to buy thing and fly places, when they use their credit Cards. The merchant that receives your credit card marks up all of his merchandise so he can pay the Credit Card companies his fee so they can pay you your points.

The poorest of us that do not use credit cards have to pay that fee so that you can get your points. I don�?�¢??t know about you but I call that a tax, imposed by a private Corp. on the poorest of our society

Now I can here all of you free marketers, the poor person should move to a poor country that only does business in the currency of goats
[/quote]
[/quote]

I think you missed his point Kneedragger. It’s not about being irresponsible, it’s about the fee the credit card companies charge a business for the privledge of being able to run a credit card.

Also unfortunately we all pay for the irresponsible (see bailouts and bankruptcy).[/quote]

[florelius]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

I live in western europa and the health care system in my country works fine, its not perfect because the neoliberals public managment reforms ( its markedrule in public sector, its a big problem ). maybe it is a joke in other europeen countries, but not in mine.

democracy its not evil if its a true democracy. the opposit of democracy is oligarcy, that is bad for the public. ps. the world is not divided between good and evil. its divided between interrests.

[/quote]

With cancer survival rates especially America out preforms western Europe, this is a fact. So saying we need to move to your system while our system is better doesn’t make sense. We can talk about the costs, but I think that the free market side of the debate has shown what needs to be fixed in the system to bring costs down(this is what eventually will happen, whether it is this congress or the congress we bring in at the end of the year).

Democracy is the will of the slight majority oppressing the minority. A constitutional republic is the only correct way to have government, as you can see my country stopped following it because they had an idea they where a democracy and now we are about to enter a currency crisis(much like western Europe is).

The world is divided by patriots and tyrants. [/quote]

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

democracy meens peoplerule. If you are against that the people shall rule, who is? and is it better that the majority is ruled by the minority?

its funny how american and europeen terms in politics is so different. A republic meens in europa a state without monarchy. my country is a monarchy and I am against that, so in europa I am a republican xD
same with patriot, in usa everyone from right to left call them self patriots. in my country only racist call themself patriot. I know this is off-topic, but its interresting. ps. I am not calling you a racist.

the world is divided between the rich and powerfull vs the poor and powerless. the world is allready a tyranny. check out how people live in the third world. its a living hell. I am glad I live in the west.

If yo

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
how is giving everyone health care going to make usa a fascist tyranny, I dont see the logic in this arguments
against the health care reform. All countries in western europa have puplic health care, but we have a democratic system and civil rights and no patriotic act. Usa have today no public health care, a less democratic system and a federal attack on your rights with the patriotic act. I cant see how this form of change is hurting your freedom.[/quote]

You do not understand economic freedom. See you like to divide freedom civil and economic. But true freedom is when you have both. This is a bill that would take a lot from a lot of people, western Europa “free” health care is a joke, if a woman has breast cancer she has a 49% chance to die, here in America she has a 91% chance to live. You system tells people we are sorry you are to much of a burden to the state please go somewhere and die. While our system while not perfect heals more people then a socialist system like western Europe’s ever could.

We are a constitutional republic, democracies are an evil form of government. Nothing but the simple majority oppressing the minority.

Britain has the biggest big brother program alive, camera’s all over the place. While my country is not perfect you would do best to remove that giant plank from your eye before you tell me about the sliver in mine.
[/quote]

most people that have a catastrophic illness end up filing for banruptsy even though they are insured

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1

[dhickey]

[quote]florelius wrote:

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

[/quote]
who doesn’t have access to health care? Even illegals have access to health care at our expense.

[Gambit_Lost]

[quote]dhickey wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

[/quote]
who doesn’t have access to health care? Even illegals have access to health care at our expense.[/quote]

From the Bush administration in 2003:

This historic report, the first annual report on healthcare disparities, is intended to provide a balanced summary of the state of disparities in the United States. It will demonstrate that disparities exist for many Americans and improvement is possible. Rather than offer a series of snapshots of disparities from individual research studies, this report provides a comprehensive view of the scope and characteristics of differences in health care quality and access associated with patient race, ethnicity, income, education, and place of residence. To date, no report has provided extensive cross-group comparisons that could provide a national roadmap to focused efforts to reduce disparities.

Demographic trends indicate that the number of Americans who are vulnerable to suffering the effects of heath care disparities will rise over the next half century. Current data show that some ethnic minorities, as well as low-income families of whatever race or ethnicity, tend to be in poorer health than other Americans. “The evidence of the damaging health consequences of racial and ethnic disparities in health care continues to be overwhelming,” says John W. Rowe, M.D., Chairman, President and CEO of Aetna.2 Gaps in income between the richest and poorest households in America are also widening. Additionally, some racial and ethnic minorities are growing at a much more rapid pace than the majority white population. Nearly 1 in 2 Americans will be a member of a racial or ethnic minorityâ??i.e., black, Hispanic, Asian, or American Indianâ??by the year 2050.3 Clearly, these trends pose a daunting challenge for policymakers and the health care system.

Quality and Patient Safety

[pittbulll]

[quote]dhickey wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

[/quote]
who doesn’t have access to health care? Even illegals have access to health care at our expense.[/quote]

Any body that does not care about their Credit rating can get free EMERGENCY healthcare ,but that is all and the working poor have to pay for their health care EMERGENCY and not.

Emergency health care is the most expensive, we are talking $100 gauze and telfa pad, $50 Tylenol, $500 x-rays.

If you could redirect the healthcare dollar out of EMERGENCY service you could probably cut costs by ninety percent

[John_S1]

[quote]florelius wrote:

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

democracy meens peoplerule. If you are against that the people shall rule, who is? and is it better that the majority is ruled by the minority?

its funny how american and europeen terms in politics is so different. A republic meens in europa a state without monarchy. my country is a monarchy and I am against that, so in europa I am a republican xD
same with patriot, in usa everyone from right to left call them self patriots. in my country only racist call themself patriot. I know this is off-topic, but its interresting. ps. I am not calling you a racist.

the world is divided between the rich and powerfull vs the poor and powerless. the world is allready a tyranny. check out how people live in the third world. its a living hell. I am glad I live in the west.

If yo

[/quote]

Everyone in America is able to have health care, like I said we are starting to debate costs. The problem with health care is that the price is based on a % of medicare. When you have fixed prices that is not Capitalism it is socialism/fascism. Europe “controls” their cost by rationing care. Another problem with central planned health care is all the bureaucracies needed to maintain it have a cost, that requires health care to go up no matter what. Bureaucracies create bureaucracies in a never ending cycle that is also a main reason why central planning actually leads to higher costs.

A democracy is just a simple majority enslaving the minority. A constitutional republic has the rules already set in place and the federal governments job is only to do specific things.

The problem with democracy is that the country will be pulled in every direction eventually causing its collapse.

When America followed capitalism it was the most egalitarian nation on the planet, it was more egalitarian then the United SOCIALIST soviet republic.

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

its still a problem that millions of americans dont have acces to health care. this is what this is all about. If the tecnology to give the best cancer treatment is in the us, I can not see why it will disapear with the health care reform.

democracy meens peoplerule. If you are against that the people shall rule, who is? and is it better that the majority is ruled by the minority?

its funny how american and europeen terms in politics is so different. A republic meens in europa a state without monarchy. my country is a monarchy and I am against that, so in europa I am a republican xD
same with patriot, in usa everyone from right to left call them self patriots. in my country only racist call themself patriot. I know this is off-topic, but its interresting. ps. I am not calling you a racist.

the world is divided between the rich and powerfull vs the poor and powerless. the world is allready a tyranny. check out how people live in the third world. its a living hell. I am glad I live in the west.

If yo

[/quote]

Everyone in America is able to have health care, like I said we are starting to debate costs. The problem with health care is that the price is based on a % of medicare. When you have fixed prices that is not Capitalism it is socialism/fascism. Europe “controls” their cost by rationing care. Another problem with central planned health care is all the bureaucracies needed to maintain it have a cost, that requires health care to go up no matter what. Bureaucracies create bureaucracies in a never ending cycle that is also a main reason why central planning actually leads to higher costs.

A democracy is just a simple majority enslaving the minority. A constitutional republic has the rules already set in place and the federal governments job is only to do specific things.

The problem with democracy is that the country will be pulled in every direction eventually causing its collapse.

When America followed capitalism it was the most egalitarian nation on the planet, it was more egalitarian then the United SOCIALIST soviet republic.[/quote]

EU controls Healthcare costs by rationing H.C. and so do American health care Insurance Co.s

When was it written that america is following Capitalism ?

[John_S1]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

EU controls Healthcare costs by rationing H.C. and so do American health care Insurance Co.s

When was it written that america is following Capitalism ?[/quote]

Right now we have fascism, which is why the the difference between the rich and the poor is so great.

Even with the insurance rationing health care the results are still better here.

America is a free nation, the only way a free nation can run is through capitalism every other system is nothing more then a bunch of bureaucracies running your life.

The 5th amendment clearly states that you have a right to your property, any other system besides capitalism violates that right.

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

EU controls Healthcare costs by rationing H.C. and so do American health care Insurance Co.s

When was it written that america is following Capitalism ?[/quote]

Right now we have fascism, which is why the the difference between the rich and the poor is so great.

Even with the insurance rationing health care the results are still better here.

America is a free nation, the only way a free nation can run is through capitalism every other system is nothing more then a bunch of bureaucracies running your life.

The 5th amendment clearly states that you have a right to your property, any other system besides capitalism violates that right.[/quote]

Where did you get this wisdome that the only free nation is a capitalist one ?

[John_S1]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Where did you get this wisdome that the only free nation is a capitalist one ? [/quote]

Just common sense, any other form of economics requires taking someones property. Property rights are essential to freedom.

[pittbulll]

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

EU controls Healthcare costs by rationing H.C. and so do American health care Insurance Co.s

When was it written that america is following Capitalism ?[/quote]

Right now we have fascism, which is why the the difference between the rich and the poor is so great.

Even with the insurance rationing health care the results are still better here.

America is a free nation, the only way a free nation can run is through capitalism every other system is nothing more then a bunch of bureaucracies running your life.

The 5th amendment clearly states that you have a right to your property, any other system besides capitalism violates that right.[/quote]

I do not think America is fascist, I think you say it does because it would make your case if it were true,

I think America takes the best from every form of government, and tries to make that work.

I know you think if left alone the free market would run very smoothly, but how does it deal with a monopoly?

Fascism

[John_S1]

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I do not think America is fascist, I think you say it does because it would make your case if it were true,

I think America takes the best from every form of government, and tries to make that work.

I know you think if left alone the free market would run very smoothly, but how does it deal with a monopoly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism[/quote]

The merger of Cooperate and state is fascism, with the bailouts and everything else how can one say that this is not Fascism. This may be Fascism that leans towards Capitalism but it is still Fascism.

Monopolies can only exist with government interference. We have 300 million people in this country, there will always be competition. Insurance companies are an oligopolies because of government saying that you can’t buy across state lines.