I think they should exactly what they are doing, educated black people stand up and say that no one should use that word. I haven’t said that black people are supposed to do any more than that. The only reason I said anything at all about black people using the word nigger is that, in response to my first post, some guy said “well no one should use it.” To me, that sounds like a spoiled white boy saying “it’s not fair, if I can’t use that word they can’t either.”
You’re a fucking idiot.
The word Nigga has to be one of the most common pieces of vocabulary used by everyone I come into contact with (15-22year olds). Black, whites, hispanics, boys and girls use the word in a non offensive manner to call someone the boy or friend or w.e. you want to call it. It is not used racially in anyway. When I go “yo what’s up my nigga” it’s used politely and that might not make sense to you but that’s just how it is.
I don’t want to use the word anymore and I feel like a lot of people don’t want to, but when something is drilled into your head everyday through the music you listen to or the programs you watch it becomes habitual to use the language. I have a foul mouth and it’s due to the same reasons.
As far as me saying that nobody should say the word and you rebuting with blacks can do whatever they want with it shows racism still exists today. if everybody was equal nobody would give a fuck what people said not segregating people with words that are so called socially unacceptable for particular races to use.
[/quote]
I think you may be forgetting the part of the country you’re in. Certain in NYC, the word is thrown around freely among and between whites, hispanics, blacks etc. So you are correct. However, it may not “translate” to other parts of the country. Just 100 miles South in Philly, I hear it alot, but not as much as in NYC. I’m sure the disconnect is greater the further you move from NYC. In NYC, its certainly part of the local vocabulary.
Why the fuck do any of you follow what Sharpton has to say to this degree? I couldn’t tell you even one issue the man has spoken out against in over a year at least, maybe more.
You sure do come across as gullible on that one.[/quote]
Because he, among others, is who we hear. And at least he and his supporters ahve annointed him some status. If he doesn’t speak for blacks in general, maybe those blacks he doesn’t speak for need to tell him to sit down.
I was and still am an athlete. To me at least, that means I was exposed to all races and formed various long lasting relationships and friendships. In a nutshell, it made it very difficult for me to feed into the machinations and lies of racism. But even I do not go to my black friend and say, “what are your thoughts on this issue”?
The average white person, whether his circle includes blacks or not, is unfortunately hearing a whole lot of Sharpton et als on alot of issues. Which really validates your point on the lack of a true leader. I’m troubled to say any single group needs a “leader” per se, but that in and of itself is representative or our “separateness” which in and of itself is the problem.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I posted this in the Politics forum a while back (where it went over like a lead balloon). Personally, I find it compelling. I’m inclined to agree with rainjack that things are slowly shifting, and I think there are some dated conditions listed in the piece, but I think most of it continues to hold true.
Daily effects of white privilege
You will find few who will admit to even a few of those…out loud.[/quote]
I can rebut damn near every one of her alleged privileges. It’s BS.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Professor X wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I posted this in the Politics forum a while back (where it went over like a lead balloon). Personally, I find it compelling. I’m inclined to agree with rainjack that things are slowly shifting, and I think there are some dated conditions listed in the piece, but I think most of it continues to hold true.
Daily effects of white privilege
You will find few who will admit to even a few of those…out loud.
I can rebut damn near every one of her alleged privileges. It’s BS.
[/quote]
Good. Clearly there are no differences in the way whites and blacks are treated in society.
Thanks for the insight. I’m glad we’ve reached this point finally.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Professor X wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I posted this in the Politics forum a while back (where it went over like a lead balloon). Personally, I find it compelling. I’m inclined to agree with rainjack that things are slowly shifting, and I think there are some dated conditions listed in the piece, but I think most of it continues to hold true.
Daily effects of white privilege
You will find few who will admit to even a few of those…out loud.
I can rebut damn near every one of her alleged privileges. It’s BS.
Good. Clearly there are no differences in the way whites and blacks are treated in society.
Thanks for the insight. I’m glad we’ve reached this point finally.[/quote]
LOL!
Anyone who thinks that any race is not treated differently from any other race is deluded. Unfortuntely, black people even more so a lot of the time.
Not always and not by everyone, but this is the truth.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Professor X wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I posted this in the Politics forum a while back (where it went over like a lead balloon). Personally, I find it compelling. I’m inclined to agree with rainjack that things are slowly shifting, and I think there are some dated conditions listed in the piece, but I think most of it continues to hold true.
Daily effects of white privilege
You will find few who will admit to even a few of those…out loud.
I can rebut damn near every one of her alleged privileges. It’s BS.
Good. Clearly there are no differences in the way whites and blacks are treated in society.
Thanks for the insight. I’m glad we’ve reached this point finally.[/quote]
C’mon don’t start with me. I didn’t say that. Now you’re guilty of the tactic that you claim others use. I merely am pointing out that most of those points are completely rebuttable and more than a few are just weak. That doesn’t mean there are no differences, it just means that whoever wrote that piece missed the mark.
Neph, I’m having difficulty reading the thread with the quotes not delineated (I assume it’s weird for everyone, and not just me). So I’m not going to make it even worse by doing a line item response.
I don’t think the piece was meant to be proof of racism, but rather food for thought. She was pretty clear that it was a personal reflection.
I think something similar might be written about the advantages of being above-average looking. Is it a guarantee of privilege? No. But it helps. Can I prove it? Certainly, to some degree. But I might not be interested in statistical analyses of bias or I may feel that it’s been adequately proven already. I might rather write a subjective article about what it seems to mean, based on my own observations.
So take the piece for what it’s worth and bear in mind that she didn’t disseminate it, I did.
[quote]rsg wrote:
Professor X wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Professor X wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I posted this in the Politics forum a while back (where it went over like a lead balloon). Personally, I find it compelling. I’m inclined to agree with rainjack that things are slowly shifting, and I think there are some dated conditions listed in the piece, but I think most of it continues to hold true.
Daily effects of white privilege
You will find few who will admit to even a few of those…out loud.
I can rebut damn near every one of her alleged privileges. It’s BS.
Good. Clearly there are no differences in the way whites and blacks are treated in society.
Thanks for the insight. I’m glad we’ve reached this point finally.
LOL!
Anyone who thinks that any race is not treated differently from any other race is deluded. Unfortuntely, black people even more so a lot of the time.
Not always and not by everyone, but this is the truth.[/quote]
yeah but, don’t they deserve it? ohh god was that racist?
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I think something similar might be written about the advantages of being above-average looking. Is it a guarantee of privilege? No. But it helps. Can I prove it? Certainly, to some degree. But I might not be interested in statistical analyses of bias or I may feel that it’s been adequately proven already. I might rather write a subjective article about what it seems to mean, based on my own observations.
So take the piece for what it’s worth and bear in mind that she didn’t disseminate it, I did. [/quote]
You aren’t the only one having issues with quotes.
The problem is that her personal reflections assume that racism exists (and takes certain forms), and work backwards from that premise to come up with ways in which she is privileged.
So, while I have no problem with her “working on herself” in this way, she did put it out for the world to see. And I am unsure what the benefit of working on one’s self might be when one does so through faulty premises.
I am in a really bad mood, so I don’t mean to be unnecessarily combative or dismissive. So I apologize if my response(s) come(s) off that way.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I think something similar might be written about the advantages of being above-average looking. Is it a guarantee of privilege? No. But it helps. Can I prove it?
Certainly, to some degree. But I might not be interested in statistical analyses of bias or I may feel that it’s been adequately proven already. I might rather write a subjective article about what it seems to mean, based on my own observations.
So take the piece for what it’s worth and bear in mind that she didn’t disseminate it, I did.
You aren’t the only one having issues with quotes.
The problem is that her personal reflections assume that racism exists (and takes certain forms), and work backwards from that premise to come up with ways in which she is privileged.
So, while I have no problem with her “working on herself” in this way, she did put it out for the world to see. And I am unsure what the benefit of working on one’s self might be when one does so through faulty premises.
I am in a really bad mood, so I don’t mean to be unnecessarily combative or dismissive. So I apologize if my response(s) come(s) off that way.[/quote]
Fair enough. I hope whatever has prompted the bad mood eases soon. I hesitate to continue because I suspect you’re going to kick my ass here, and that’s unpleasant enough without bad moods on the part of the ass-kicker, but I am compelled.
I’m not sure how one talks about something like racism without it becoming subjective or anecdotal. Particularly in a time of such rapid change.
I checked, the piece was written in '88. So twenty years old. I think many of her points could today be refuted simply by saying “Obama!” But that’s an overwhelming change, and one that’s come just in the past year.
I think it’s fair to say that prior to Obama’s run most newspapers ran white faces on their front pages more than 78% of the time (the proportion, I believe, of white to black in America). You seem to be suggesting that the existence of racism in America is in question. And perhaps it should be.
We do, after all, have a (partly) black contender for the presidency, our top (I think?) golfer, the sport of affluent people, is (partly) black. No one can deny that there has been consistent improvement. But still.
I lived for two years in the pretty hill country of Texas. If I had black neighbors there, I can’t remember them. A quick check tells me the local high school, one of the top 50 in the nation (some year recently, it was touted locally) has .05% black students, although the city as a whole is 10% black.
I crossed the proverbial tracks to go to work at a predominantly minority high school (found the missing black kids, they were tucked away in the inner city). I can tell you with some certainty that things were very different for the kids who lived in that neighborhood.
Some of that was a function of class, of course. Maybe even most of it. But not all of it. I know the very poor white kids didn’t feel the same way about cops that the black kids did (terrified).
I know that “The Cosby Show” is so dated as to be ridiculous, but when we talk about affluent black family role models, that’s what we come up with and kids in high school today are still processing it.
Lately I’ve been hearing Nappy Roots “Good Day” on the radio, which talks about “ain’t nobody gonna die today,” which is nice, but you don’t really need to celebrate that so much in white neighborhoods, you know? Because the assumption is that nobody’s going to die. When I think about white music that talks about making the best of things, what comes to mind is Green Day’s “Good Riddance.” “Another turning point, a fork stuck in the road…” It’s different.
Middle class kids are agonized by their choices. Black kids are only in very recent years moving into the middle class in any large number, historically they’ve been more agonized by their circumstances than their options and a disproportionate number of them still are.
I think they should exactly what they are doing, educated black people stand up and say that no one should use that word. I haven’t said that black people are supposed to do any more than that.
The only reason I said anything at all about black people using the word nigger is that, in response to my first post, some guy said “well no one should use it.” To me, that sounds like a spoiled white boy saying “it’s not fair, if I can’t use that word they can’t either.”
You’re a fucking idiot.
The word Nigga has to be one of the most common pieces of vocabulary used by everyone I come into contact with (15-22year olds). Black, whites, hispanics, boys and girls use the word in a non offensive manner to call someone the boy or friend or w.e. you want to call it. It is not used racially in anyway. When I go “yo what’s up my nigga” it’s used politely and that might not make sense to you but that’s just how it is.
I don’t want to use the word anymore and I feel like a lot of people don’t want to, but when something is drilled into your head everyday through the music you listen to or the programs you watch it becomes habitual to use the language. I have a foul mouth and it’s due to the same reasons.
As far as me saying that nobody should say the word and you rebuting with blacks can do whatever they want with it shows racism still exists today. if everybody was equal nobody would give a fuck what people said not segregating people with words that are so called socially unacceptable for particular races to use.
[/quote]
Well you’re not very bright either. I didn’t say black people can do whatever they want. I said it’s not MY PLACE to tell them what they can and can’t do, not as a southern white man.
If you don’t understand that, then come down here to the capital of the confederacy and start calling people your “nigga” and tell them that it’s all good cause you’re such a hip guy. Let’s see how well that works out.
I thought this was funny, relative to this thread/discussion:
Joel Stein:
How to make fun of Obama
Tips for those who find it too hard to joke about the Democratic candidate.
He called his own grandmother a racist. We all have racist grandmothers, but we don’t brag about it to everyone. I like to imagine that his granny wasn’t that bad and that Obama was just super-sensitive. Like she would tell him it was bedtime and he’d yell, “Oh, I have to go to bed because I’m black!” Or she’d tell him to clean up his room and he’d start yelling, “Oh, clean my room, huh? My people stopped obeying the white woman 100 years ago, Grammy!” Then they’d both laugh and she’d whip him.
[quote]rsg wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
Kaffir pretty much means religion-less, so i guess atheist. (not 100% sure, just what i remember)
Technically, yes - “non-believer”.
Trust me though - call a black man that in SA and he won’t be too impressed. I explained to my black friends that I didn’t believe it to be specific to black people because of it’s actual meaning, and rather used it as a general insult to anyone.[/quote]
I have alot of family in Mississippi who use the n-word occasionally. They explained to me how they use it to describe people of a certain mindset rather than people with a certain color of skin.
[quote]Bellmar wrote:
I have alot of family in Mississippi who use the n-word occasionally. They explained to me how they use it to describe people of a certain mindset rather than people with a certain color of skin.
[/quote]
Do you think that this might be a way to rationalize racist behavior?
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Fair enough. I hope whatever has prompted the bad mood eases soon.
[/quote]
Thanks. I’m having weird health issues that are probably stress related.
If we can speak both rationally and anecdotally, that is fine. If you tell a story about perceived racism we can at least argue over the details of the story, to what extent our own biases influence our subjective analyses of the event, and how that story fits into a gestalt of other known stories. And that is fine. We can try to quantify racism, but you are right that it is resistant to quantification.
One of my issues with the article as written is that, rather than providing anecdotes or stories with which we can dialectically argue, she universalizes whatever data she has.
So rather than saying, for example, “when I lived in Ohio, a black couple moved in two doors down, and such-and-such happened, which differs from the expected result because I observed white people moving in, and when they did, what generally occurred was…” and so on, she says “White people don’t have to worry about…” and so on.
So all of her arguments start out very weak logically, since they do not argue what any particular race DOES have to worry about, they argue what one particular race DOES NOT have to worry about, while only vaguely implying that some other race somewhere has to worry about this thing. So that makes me feel as though someone does not want to be forthright with me, and is intentionally clouding the issue.
This makes a huge difference. I was a child in '88, and I cannot speak to adult race relations during that period. It is my fault for not checking/looking at the date - that is a very substantial point.
Well, I don’t really think the existence of racism in America is in question. I just think that starting out from the premise of racism, and using it as a lens through which to filter all experience produces poor results.
So I argued with that as a procedure; to view an event and say, after viewing it, “that was racist” is far different from saying “racism exists - where can I find it?” Further, there is an issue of how racism is expressed in the real world.
I will try to condense this rant, but racism used to be something that was evaluated as an event. “No Coloreds Allowed” signs, for example. As long as that held, racism was a matter of practice and therefore could be responded to with action.
Now that racism is less socially acceptable, it has shifted into the realm of being; one is a racist, without ever having to do anything in particular. And since being resists action, there is no response to racism that is on its own terms as it is now defined, other than a wish for obliteration of he who is racist.
Which is all a lot of words for saying that this shift from action into being means that our traditional apparatuses for evaluating the world fail us when we try to address something as insidious as racism, and actually leads to the very kinds of alienation (from others and self) that the civil rights movement was supposed to eliminate.
My experience is from an area that is increasingly “black.” As such, the police officers are black, proprietors are black, bank owners, etc.
So as I see black people being distributed through the socio-economic spectrum and eliminating many of the so-called power imbalances between the races, these claims are more difficult for me to take seriously. But I do believe you, and not every place is going to be the same as where I live.
Still, this may be a matter of class and not race. I don’t have statistics for this, but my intuition is that poor whites are less likely to be in cities, whereas poor blacks are more likely to be.
And there may be different cultural expectations that depend upon race and the portrayal of possible opportunities along racial lines. And I also wonder how much music comes from the black lower class versus the white middle class.
This is a fair point. Still, is it fair to compare black lower class kids with white middle class kids?
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Neph, maybe I should ask, do you feel advantaged/disadvantaged by your race? Or would you say it’s a non-issue?
[/quote]
I would say it is a mixed bag, and it is difficult to separate from class.
I certainly felt disadvantaged during the college admissions process, during which time I saw people who had lower GPAs and SAT scores being given full rides to the same university (and for the same or similar majors) that was willing to give me very little.
At one point, I felt as though I was given some breaks based on my race - that there had a presumption in my favor that other kids did not get. On the other hand, most of the staff knew me by name, and I had set myself up in a position in which many teachers depended upon my expertise by my sophomore year. And I did not take that into account at the time. Certainly other white kids at my school were not given the same latitude.
Occasionally I do encounter people who treat me in a different way than they treat their black customers. But this is rare.
For the most part, it is a non-issue to me. But saying that only feeds into the rhetoric behind “white privilege” theories - that the white person is not even consciously aware that he is benefiting from his race.
Thanks. I’m having weird health issues that are probably stress related.[/quote]
I’m sorry to hear that you’re both not feeling well and stressed enough that it’s causing you issues. Really sorry.
[quote]I will try to condense this rant, but racism used to be something that was evaluated as an event. “No Coloreds Allowed” signs, for example. As long as that held, racism was a matter of practice and therefore could be responded to with action.
Now that racism is less socially acceptable, it has shifted into the realm of being; one is a racist, without ever having to do anything in particular. And since being resists action, there is no response to racism that is on its own terms as it is now defined, other than a wish for obliteration of he who is racist.
Which is all a lot of words for saying that this shift from action into being means that our traditional apparatuses for evaluating the world fail us when we try to address something as insidious as racism, and actually leads to the very kinds of alienation (from others and self) that the civil rights movement was supposed to eliminate.[/quote]
I understand “racist” as the subjective belief of the actor (the “being”), while “discrimination” is the act itself (the “doing”). But that’s semantics, and I get your point. I think the wish is not for obliteration of he who is racist, but rather a continuing reduction in the racism itself. Sure, it’s subtle at this point in most cases, but it exists nonetheless.
On the other hand, I agreed with rainjack when he pointed out that whites are responsible for many of the positive changes made in the last 40 years. I thought Professor X’s points were valid as well. But I’m a fence-sitter, and I tend to believe that when people of good will argue, there’s right on both sides.
The class vs race question has come up a couple of times. I agree, it’s difficult to separate them. One thing I will say about it, though, is that blacks are statistically much more likely to be members of the “persistent poor,” people who remain chronically poor. Chronically poor whites tend to have health or mental health issues. Not as reliably so blacks. But of course that, like everything else, is slowly shifting, I’m sure.
[quote]I certainly felt disadvantaged during the college admissions process, during which time I saw people who had lower GPAs and SAT scores being given full rides to the same university (and for the same or similar majors) that was willing to give me very little.
At one point, I felt as though I was given some breaks based on my race - that there had a presumption in my favor that other kids did not get. On the other hand, most of the staff knew me by name, and I had set myself up in a position in which many teachers depended upon my expertise by my sophomore year. And I did not take that into account at the time. Certainly other white kids at my school were not given the same latitude.
Occasionally I do encounter people who treat me in a different way than they treat their black customers. But this is rare.
For the most part, it is a non-issue to me. But saying that only feeds into the rhetoric behind “white privilege” theories - that the white person is not even consciously aware that he is benefiting from his race. [/quote]
A conundrum. How can I tell if I’m obtuse if I’m too obtuse to tell? Honestly, like rainjack, I’m not even sure what sort of issue it should be to you (or me), if indeed we enjoy white privilege.
Moving even further along the spectrum, from anecdotal to entirely subjective, one thing that makes me think white privilege is a reality is that while I feel advantaged to be female, I sometimes wish I could be male, see what their advantages feel like (physical power, rewarded aggression, stuff like that). I don’t feel that way about being black. Maybe I would be interested in trying out “black male” for a short while, but I wouldn’t want to be a black female. I just don’t see a single advantage beyond the college admissions process. Maybe there’s some job advantage if you’re in a bureaucratic or large corporate environment, but that doesn’t interest me. And then there’s the resentment it might engender.