Racial Rantings and Baseball

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
This is hilarious Lol I love when a white person says he doesn’t see racism.[/quote]

I’m white. I’ve lived near Seattle in a redneck town, with a few blacks, in Dallas, and in Detroit. The most racist area? Detroit. Blacks hate white people. Dallas, too. Hispanics hate white people. If there’s racism today, and I’ve seen it, it’s from blacks and Hispanics, not whites.

The racist whites aren’t that way because of their upbringing, but because of the way that minorities tend to act. They draw the simplistic conclusion that it is due to inferior genetics. It’s an easy way to look at things, if entirely ignorant.

Blacks are %12 of the population, but %40 of welfare. White people in the suburbs pay for their schools and welfare. The worst areas in the country are the areas that are populated and run by black folks. Detroit is a mess, it’s really third world. Remember Ray Nagin and New Orleans? Blacks have every opportunity, they just refuse those opportunities. You can’t blame white people for blacks not trying to succeed. It’s not our fault, it’s their culture.

[quote]escot4 wrote:
For those who think racism doesn’t exist, try reading the comments on 10 random youtube videos where people are arguing.[/quote]

There’s a difference between the kind of idle racism that causes irritation and the kind that leads to violence and discrimination. It’s easy to talk shit about a race, but when you meet a good black person, you’d have to be a true racist to treat them differently solely because of their race. I work with some great black folks, and it would hurt me to say n***** knowing them.

My uncle has a masters degree in mechanical engineering, and is an incredible SOB by all accounts, and he was held back from promotion at work for years until affirmative action was banned in Michigan. He then promptly got his promotion. Affirmative action has been a travesty.

If that, along with welfare and public school funding does not make things equal, what does? Should be grant every black in American 10K? A Cadillac? A mule and 50 acres? What? We’ve done so much. Racism against blacks does not hurt them seriously today. My generation shouldn’t have to pay for something done by our ancestors. That’s like nuking Japan again to get back at them for China.

162

I don’t particularly want to debate race/racism or baseball, but I thought I’d stop in and give CappedAndPlanIt a leg up. Those of you having to take a college Discrimination class (criminal justice majors, for example) might keep Ms. McIntosh in mind.

Daily effects of white privilege

By Peggy McIntosh

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

  1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

  2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

  3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

  4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

  5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

  6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

  7. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

  8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

  9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

  10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

  11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person’s voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

  12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

  13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

  14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

  15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

  16. I can be pretty sure that my children’s teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others’ attitudes toward their race.

  17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

  18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

  19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

  20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

  21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

  22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world’s majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

  23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

  24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the “person in charge”, I will be facing a person of my race.

  25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven’t been singled out because of my race.

  26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children’s magazines featuring people of my race.

  27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

  28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

  29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

  30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn’t a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

  31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

  32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

  33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

  34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

  35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

  36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

  37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

  38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

  39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

  40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

  41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

  42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

  43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

  44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

  45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

  46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh” color and have them more or less match my skin.

  47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

  48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

  49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

  50. I will feel welcomed and “normal” in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

164

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
I don’t particularly want to debate race/racism or baseball, but I thought I’d stop in and give CappedAndPlanIt a leg up.

Does his butt taste good? [/quote]

Wait…are you suggesting that I’m kissing Capped’s ass? That’s really shocking to me. Because the thought of it…shocks me.

[quote]Those of you having to take a college Discrimination class (criminal justice majors, for example) might keep Ms. McIntosh in mind.

LOL…yea keep her in mind if you want to hear a liberal rant on. Like many who teach at the University level she has a liberal agenda, and pounds it out every chance she gets. [/quote]

Eh, they should keep it in mind if they want to get A’s in a college discrimination class. I’ll grant that there’s a liberal agenda in the universities, but that doesn’t necessarily make all of the information bad.

[quote]And here are just a few for black people, I could list far more:

-I like taking state and federal exams as I am given an additional 15 points simply because I am black. That means if I get a 70 and a white person gets an 84, I get the job. I really like that. :slight_smile:

-My son got into a very good college because of something called “affirmative action”. He’s not all that bright but they had to let him in because he’s black. And good part is they have to keep him there unless he really screws up, because they have to have x number of black people on campus. My wife and I love this…it keeps him out of our hair for four years. :slight_smile:

-I was stealing from my employer and when I was suspected (yea I did it) and fired I got a free lawyer from the EEOC (government) because I’m black. I sued my employer and won. The extra money really came in handy. :slight_smile:

Look, I could go on. Discriminating against an entire class of people (white people) because white people discriminated against black people 140 years ago is stupid.

Equality for all.

Oh…and Emily, if you want to post more drivel like this feel free to do so, that’s what the Internet is for, it seems. But, don’t expect the average reader on this site to buy into it.

[/quote]

I don’t see what’s to “buy into,” Mick. It’s merely another viewpoint. It doesn’t negate what you’ve written above. It doesn’t attempt to. I can shift views and consider the situation from two different positions. Why can’t you? Do you think it weakens your position to admit that there are other fair ways to see something? McIntosh doesn’t make any policy claims. She asks nothing of you, except that you consider some of the advantages you enjoy. What’s so dangerous about that?

Personally, I thought it was interesting. And occasionally something will happen that will bring it to mind again. That’s partly because of the work I do (some of it with poor minorities), but still.

I merely seek to edify you, Mick. Because I’m generous that way.

165

I think some people in this thread would do good to go and look up exactly what affirmative action is. Even though many believe it is, it is not based on racial quotas.

Also, many people will spit out some number of “free” points blacks get on state and federal exams and, again, most times these claims fall short when examined thoroughly.

But, in the end it doesn’t matter since this is one of those subjects where people are sharply divided.

166

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Thats not actually true, though. There is NO difference in genetic code.[/quote]

Shows what you know.

http://www.bioforensics.com/conference04/Racial_Identification/index.html

“Racial identification and future application of SNPs - Dr. Ted Kessis, Applied DNA Resources… DETERMINE RACE PROPORTIONS FROM CRIME SCENE DNA”

Tell me, then why do forensic investigators use this?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Thats not actually true, though. There is NO difference in genetic code.[/quote]

Yeah… sure. Whatever you say.

167

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

  1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.[/quote]

North America is predominantly white. Damn European settlers. They just HAD to be white. If you don’t like it, move to another country. One where your race is predominant. Not hard to find.

[quote]
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.[/quote]

This makes no sense. grammatically or logically.

[quote]
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.[/quote]

There’s plenty of trailer parks. Don’t sell me this bullshit.

[quote]
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.[/quote]

No you cant. Nobody guarantees this. Even if you are with people your own race. Race does NOT imply anything about the character of a person.

[quote]
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.[/quote]

WTF is this? WTF. Another goddamn stereotype. This is NOT dependant on race. A person’s behaviour and personality is not based on race. Maybe on income level and environment, and even family history, but NOT race.

[quote]
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.[/quote]

Again, move to a different country then.

[quote]
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.[/quote]

Same as above.

[quote]
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.[/quote]

Again. WTF is this shit?

[quote]
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.[/quote]

…

[quote]
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.[/quote]

This is a good thing.

[quote]
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person’s voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.[/quote]

Does this not contradict the above statement?

[quote]
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.[/quote]

Again, move to a different country if you don’t want to adapt to this one, or whichever one you may be in. Otherwise there are always specialty stores where you may buy stuff, and the internet for music and other stuff.

[quote]
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.[/quote]

Ok, I’ll give you this one. Depends on appearance also, not just skin color.

[quote]
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.[/quote]

And you can’t do it otherwise because?

[quote]
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.[/quote]

Ok, I’ll give you this one too. But it varies on what system you mean. And systemic racism can also be abused by people of minorities for their own gains.

[quote]
16. I can be pretty sure that my children’s teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others’ attitudes toward their race.[/quote]

Maybe…

[quote]
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.[/quote]

NOT dependent on race. A slob is a slob no matter what color.

[quote]
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.[/quote]

Ok.

[quote]
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.[/quote]

Good thing you realized this. Gee, could have saved alot of lines of writing.

168

[quote]unbending wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:

  1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

North America is predominantly white. Damn European settlers. They just HAD to be white. If you don’t like it, move to another country. One where your race is predominant. Not hard to find.

  1. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

This makes no sense. grammatically or logically.[/quote]

Many blacks were raised to feel mistrustful of whites. It means that, as you point out above, the US is predominantly white, so if I as a white person wish to avoid those people I’ve been raised to mistrust, I can, since they comprise only 12% of the population.

And lets face it, they comprise much less than that of the population in the non-slum communities I’ve always lived in. The sentence is grammatically correct.

[quote]8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

Again. WTF is this shit? [/quote]

She’s referring to the tendency of textbooks to reflect a strong white bias…which is probably reasonable, since until very recently whites were the leaders and scientists and mathematicians in our country.

Still, reasonable or not, it would suck to be a kid who never saw anyone who looked like you pictured in texts. That’s changed, however. I think this point is outdated.

Texts - schools - go out of their way to reflect diversity now. You don’t ever see a picture of three kids in a school workbook that doesn’t show one white, one black, and one either Asian or Latino.

[quote]
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

This is a good thing.

  1. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person’s voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

Does this not contradict the above statement? [/quote]

No. The top one says that as the sole white person in a group comprised of non-whites, I’ll still be given respect. The second one says that in a group of whites, the non-white may or may not.

I don’t know that that’s true, however. I’m inclined to think that if you’re all together talking in 2007, everyone has a chance to be heard. So that point may be outdated, too.

[quote]
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

Ok, I’ll give you this one. Depends on appearance also, not just skin color. [/quote]

Your point is a good one. Trashy-looking white people are treated just as badly, if not worse.

[quote]
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

Good thing you realized this. Gee, could have saved alot of lines of writing. [/quote]

Yes, well, she’s saying that as a white person she can. Of course, she’s a white person with a PhD and a professorship at an Ivy League university.

I’m not entirely certain that a white woman without those things would be getting a lot of time or respect from the “powerful male group,” regardless of race. But whatever. I guess to be fair, a white male factory worker wouldn’t get a lot of respect from the “powerful male group” either.

171

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:

Eh, they should keep it in mind if they want to get A’s in a college discrimination class. I’ll grant that there’s a liberal agenda in the universities, but that doesn’t necessarily make all of the information bad.

No? Does it make it good quality unbiased information? No I guess not. It makes it yet more liberal drivel spoon fed to our youth by liberal Universities who have a liberal agenda.[/quote]

It makes it information; the viewpoint from where one person stands. It’s an opinion piece. Something to think about. If for no other reason than to compare it to your own experience. “That’s total bullshit; I’ve known thousands of black people who feel, when told about our national heritage or about ‘civilization,’ that people of their color made it what it is,” you might say to yourself.

[quote]It’s total bullshit, not worthy of the paper it’s written on.

Let me try to explain something to you.
If some guy says that he was visited by aliens and described in detail his conversation with them, would you think “oh that’s just another view point”. Or, would you say, “that guy is full of shit?”

Any rational person can see that the guy is full of crap.

And anyone who has not yet been brainwashed by the liberal University system will dismiss that womans paper as liberal propaganda.

Again…wake up little girl. [/quote]

Did Ms. McIntosh strike you as being a lunatic?

[quote]It doesn’t negate what you’ve written above. It doesn’t attempt to. I can shift views and consider the situation from two different positions.

You do this because you are a wishy washy woman who tries to appease everyone and most likely does not even know her own mind when it comes to things of this nature.[/quote]

Wishy-washy? No. Do you realize, Mick, that it’s possible to hold two ideas at the very same time, even if they’re not the same idea? In this case one of the ideas being that you can empathize with the difficulties experienced by others without believing that (here comes idea #2!) the government can or should remediate it by redistributing funds. See? Two ideas! Both held simultaneously, and neither in an effort to appease anyone (and plus, I’m trying to appease who? you?).

[quote]McIntosh doesn’t make any policy claims. She asks nothing of you…

Please get your head out of your ass, I beg you.

She’s making all sorts of claims…“When I walk down the street I can feel the cold stares of those who see me for the color of my skin only…”

BLAAAAACH…YEECH…BULL SHIT! UTTER TRASH!

When will you liberal idiots realize that it’s racists like McIntosh who perpetuate the differences between the races?[/quote]

I meant policy claims as in asking that policy be changed to address the issues. So I meant that she makes no claims on the taxpayer.

[quote]Many blacks were raised to feel mistrustful of whites.

Like I’ve been saying for several pages, if a child is raised properly they will not discriminate against another for any reason such as race. [/quote]

That’s probably true…no, definitely true…but unfortunately a lot of people feel backed against the wall. They feel that they have to warn their kids about people who make assumptions based on race.

[quote]
And that’s why, currently there are more racists black people than white people in the US, proportionally.

Fix the thinking and stop throwing money at a problem that cannot be fixed by more money. [/quote]

I agree! Do you feel that your thinking is beginning to feel…fixed…yet? I hope so!

[quote]
Maybe some can see the error of their ways when it’s pointed out this way…without race involved.

But I doubt it…so much brain washing has been done, it’s probably to late. [/quote]

Oh, don’t say that, Mick. I still believe there’s a chance for you.

Though I’ve sometimes been accused of being overly optimistic.

173

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Did Ms. McIntosh strike you as being a lunatic?

Her blather is no more legitimate than the information given by the example which I gave. [/quote]

Your example featured someone who is suffering from a delusional disorder (“If some guy says that he was visited by aliens and described in detail his conversation with them”). McIntosh clearly wasn’t battling schizophrenia when she wrote the piece.

Do you not see a difference between the two? The guy in your example isn’t lucid. He isn’t a valid or reliable source for information. McIntosh is an obviously intelligent woman who is thinking clearly. That makes her information “legitimate,” whether you like what she’s saying or not.

Indeed.

(That was a little jab. Could you tell? LOL)

[quote]
Bull…the racial myth is perpetuated by idiots like Mcintosh. We don’t need to spend money on racism, we need to educate the children BOTH RACES from the start. [/quote]

Okay, good, I totally agree, but in order to do that some understanding of one another’s point of view is necessary.

You can’t blithely say to kids that “everyone is exactly the same!” when some of the people included in “everyone” have grandparents who tell them about having endured nearly unimaginable indignities. Because the smart child’s response is going to be “WTF?” The world should make sense to kids. Some thought is required.

[quote]
Thanks sweet cheeks, I hold out hope for you as well. Keep posting eventually you may get it right.[/quote]

See how I’m ignoring the “sweet cheeks” and all the “little girls”? I’m going to resist coming up with equivalents to call you. Know why? Because when I publish my book you’re going to buy it because you’ll be curious.

I know you’ll spend the $7.99 even if I insult you, but once you read it you’ll be so moved by its poignancy that you’ll want to buy a copy for everyone you know.

I’m resisting the insults because with people like you buying the book and giving it to all your friends and family as gifts it’s sure to become a bestseller, and when THAT happens I’ll be rich and famous.

And when I’m rich and famous I don’t want to deal with having people delve into my shady past and find that I’ve got a history of name-calling on internet message boards, causing a huge scandal that I’ll have to be Publicly Contrite over.

So go ahead. Have your fun.

175

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
So, anyone who is lucid has information worth reading?[/quote]

No. Just anyone who is smart and thoughtful and considering a topic in which you have interest. Then, whether or not they approach things from the direction you do, they have information worth reading.

I tend to believe that especially when people approach things differently, they’re worthy of consideration. “Know thine enemy” and all that.

[quote]
Here’s the difference, the crazy person harms no one. McIntosh harms many with her liberal racist lies.

Simple. [/quote]

Liberal racist lies? Huh? Are you lucid? She talked about her own life and how little prejudice she encounters in it. Mick, did you read the piece??

[quote]
It’s not about teaching kids JUST to treat every person the same regardless of color.

It’s about planting the seeds of success in their little minds. And taking away the crutch of racism. These kids need to be empowered. And you empower no one by telling them that they’re not good enough and need special favors, laws and money from the government. What you do is cripple generation after generation. And that has been proven after 40 years of programs which inadvertently hurt black people.

If we can change how kids think of themselves and their race we all win. Short of that there will be nothing but more catastrophic minority statistics related to crime, welfare and family abandonment.

I like that one definition of insanity? Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

The government has been doing this and it’s time to stop. [/quote]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I really do. But I think you’re being naive. I realize that you think ME naive, but I’m not. It’s definitely you!

The children of the “chronically poor” are raised differently. They are much, much more passive than middle or upper class kids. This is in part because of the policies you decry, but also because poor people do work that doesn’t allow for individuality or independent thought or what I would call “spirit.”

Your kids will never be like that. They’ll argue with teachers if they feel they’re justified, they’ll argue with the cops, and they’ll find jobs where their input is valued.

So I agree with you about “planting the seeds of success,” but I think it’s not as easy as you’d have it be. Policy in America swings wildly between liberal and conservative, with no in-between. The pendulum seems to be either on one side or the other. There needs to be a compromise, something that will enable the success you’re talking about.

Do you figure removal of welfare as a stand-alone policy will plant the seeds of success in their little heads?

176

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
…we need to educate the children…
[/quote]

Holy shit, Mick, you sound like a liberal. Do it for the kids

179

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
…we need to educate the children…

Holy shit, Mick, you sound like a liberal. Do it for the kids

Wanting to help children is something that everyone from all political persuasions can agree with. But, liberals confuse the issue with money and special rights.[/quote]

Ahh, relax, just some friendly ribbing. I’m done with the discussion here, but if you’re ever in Milwaukee, I’ll gladly buy you a beer.

180

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
The children of the “chronically poor” are raised differently. They are much, much more passive than middle or upper class kids.

Passive? No, not at all.

Most crime committed by those ages 16 to 24 are committed by the underprivileged. Breaking into someones home, beating someone up, selling drugs…none of that is “passive”.

Maybe you meant something else and typed passive instead. [/quote]

No, I did mean passive. The kids are socialized differently; middle and upper class kids to be questioners and become involved.

They see the world as reciprocal and interested in their input. Their parents explain things, rules and punishments and such. Poor kids are more likely to be given orders and then let run wild. It’s different. They may be hostile, they may be violent, they may be murderers, but by and large, studies show, they are less likely to question “why” things are the way they are. It’s an overwhelming disadvantage.

I definitely saw it working with teens. Even with bright, motivated kids I had to walk them through the questioning. They needed a lot of help even envisioning something different. It’s hard. [/quote]

Saying “suck my dick” is arguing, sure, but I would guess that most of them are actually very accepting of poor legal representation and whatever sentence they receive. That’s where passive acceptance comes in. Bravado and assertiveness are not the same thing.

Selling drugs is the best option they have, many of them. Their schools suck and they aren’t sent to them particularly prepared or motivated to learn (which feeds into the poor quality of the schools). Their reading and writing skills leave them qualified only for the worst jobs. Drugs pay better.

Drugs should be decriminalized, in my opinion, but that’s another thread.

[quote]So I agree with you about “planting the seeds of success,” but I think it’s not as easy as you’d have it be.

Show me where I said that it would be easy? think it will be very difficult, but very worthwhile.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote]Well, first of all nothing like this will ever be proposed or accepted by anyone who is liberal. They think that blacks need to be given more in terms of affirmative action, money, special rights etc.

They want to give the alcoholic more whisky, as they do not yet see that it is the whisky that’s holding the alcoholic back. They think it’s the liquor store owner who is to blame for not selling it cheaper.[/quote]

Maybe that’s fair. But they also want to fight drug addiction and improve health for kids and do any number of things that I think WOULD be worth doing. But I will certainly agree that the liberals have a terrible tendency to create negative unintended consequences.

Conservatives are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What kills me is that both sides are guilty of creating this impossible situation, with the liberals shrieking “More, more! Give them more!” and the conservatives screaming “Cut 'em off! They get nothing!” All they want is political power, and that comes with forcing voters to choose between the two parties. Neither of them seem genuinely to want real solutions.

[quote]But, it’s one step which needs to be taken along the path to actually helping an entire race of people. If you remove everyone from welfare immediately we’ll have a major problem on our hands.

I would be for phasing it out over a long period of time in a gradual manner. I don’t want to hurt anyone, especially children. What I want to do is have those children grow up with some self respect, common sense, the will to succeed and the belief good things are coming their way if the work hard and stay the course.[/quote]

You know the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 does just that? Lifetime limits on benefits, work requirements, etc?

[quote]Is it true that you receive more of the type of behavior that is rewarded the most?

If that is true, and most behavioral Psychologists will tell you that it is, what does that say about our current system?

  1. You don’t have to be as good.

  2. You don’t have to work as hard.

  3. You don’t need to be as smart.

On and on…

Think about it.
[/quote]

I think you imagine life in the projects to be more comfortable than it really is.