Quick and Dirty Self Defense

You guys should read “koryu butjutsu” . It goes into depth on the topic of flight fight syndrome and how samurai training tried to overcome it.

One main thing you may of overlooked. As has been pointed out these women maybe quite timid and very feminine women and even if taught how to eye gouge are probaly not likely to do it!

Mace is probaly their best bet. They need a simple and unfair advantage. Otherwise you’re talking about years of hardcore training. It takes long enough for men, how long does it take to train women for this?

A couple things I didn’t notice in the thread thus far (I skimmed it.)

-Ballpoint pens are amazing weapons in a pinch, they can be used for stabbing, which could range from a lethal stab to a strong distraction. Pens can also be used for leverage on small joint manipulation making it easier to break fingers. Most college students should have a pen or pencil on their person.

-Stomping is a highly effective self preservation technique. A stomp on the instep will stun an attacker if done weakly, and leave them hobbling if done strongly.

-Tucking the head down and moving your arms in front of your face is a fairly effective way for the untrained to be able to weather heavy face strikes

-You can get free of a front choke easily by “reaching” across yourself and using your arm to push away their arms {like you are quickly grabbing something near your opposite shoulder).

Some folks did mention nerve/soft tissue attacks, and that’s a pretty good way to go, a few major areas are the groin, sides of the neck, armpits and solar plexus.

I think it’s great that you’re teaching these women how to survive out there. Back to lurking with me.

[quote]SuperBeaver wrote:
You guys should read “koryu butjutsu” . It goes into depth on the topic of flight fight syndrome and how samurai training tried to overcome it.

One main thing you may of overlooked. As has been pointed out these women maybe quite timid and very feminine women and even if taught how to eye gouge are probaly not likely to do it!

Mace is probaly their best bet. They need a simple and unfair advantage. Otherwise you’re talking about years of hardcore training. It takes long enough for men, how long does it take to train women for this?[/quote]

Thank you for your time and input, but I fear I must disagree with your timeframe.

We’re talking about self defense…not martial arts (but please let’s not let this degenerate into that old topic). Martial arts takes years (gradually learning and perfecting a technique)…but self defense can indeed be learned quickly (through some of the methods previously mentioned earlier in the thread).

I do agree with you somewhat on the “will they even do it” thing. While it is a chance, and no one can be sure (as someone said about Mike Tyson saying that one does not know how they will react until they are punched in the face), through reality based scenarios, it becomes more likely that it will be used indeed.

Again, thank you for your input and I welcome any more of them.

AD

[quote]Xanzo wrote:
A couple things I didn’t notice in the thread thus far (I skimmed it.)

-Ballpoint pens are amazing weapons in a pinch, they can be used for stabbing, which could range from a lethal stab to a strong distraction. Pens can also be used for leverage on small joint manipulation making it easier to break fingers. Most college students should have a pen or pencil on their person.

-Stomping is a highly effective self preservation technique. A stomp on the instep will stun an attacker if done weakly, and leave them hobbling if done strongly.

-Tucking the head down and moving your arms in front of your face is a fairly effective way for the untrained to be able to weather heavy face strikes

-You can get free of a front choke easily by “reaching” across yourself and using your arm to push away their arms {like you are quickly grabbing something near your opposite shoulder).

Some folks did mention nerve/soft tissue attacks, and that’s a pretty good way to go, a few major areas are the groin, sides of the neck, armpits and solar plexus.

I think it’s great that you’re teaching these women how to survive out there. Back to lurking with me.[/quote]

Thank you for your post. I do show the front choke escape you mentioned, but please feel free to stick around and comment more (the more input/discussion, the better, IMHO) instead of lurking. :wink:

AD

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
Xanzo wrote:

-You can get free of a front choke easily by “reaching” across yourself and using your arm to push away their arms {like you are quickly grabbing something near your opposite shoulder).

AD[/quote]

For a front choke,

  1. kick then in the shins hard
  2. raise your right arm straight up
  3. step backwards and at the same time rotate your torso so your right side goes to the front and your left side to the back, this way your delt/traps crush at the opponents’ hands, squashes their fingers, changes the shape and presentation of your neck muscles that they are grabbin’

Works even for little women. It is also good to grab their left hand with your left hand before you twist their hands off, because when you do twist them off, they are going to have their arms in a perfect position for an arm bar.

Lots of good advice here.

Make sure you teach them strikes they can do without hurting themselves, that do max. damage, and practice them HITTING something (a bag) for impact experience and also targetting on a mannequin etc…

But you have a tough job of it because the psychology of the people over there is different … you are going to have to bring them out of an emotional shell. Of course if they sign up to your class they probably have it in 'em to get out of that shell. That will be your biggest hurdle.

Although you might be able to tap into cultural things too, for example, convince them they must fight like a tiger to preserve the honour of their ancestry and family when confronted by a villain.

But heck I haven’t been to China in 20 years I haven’t got a clue what the people are like today it is a different world there now.

Apparently a good strong stomp on the instep with high heals delivers the same amount of pain as being shot there with a bullet.

Ditto on the book “Gift of Fear” by Gavin de Becker. It was recommended to our group by a Ft Worth PD sex crimes detective. It details the meetings and buildups to a number of real life assaults and the similarities are startling.

These days, at least in America, it seems that tolerance and acceptance are preached to the point of nauseation but if an individual gives you bad vibes you really ought to respect that instead of trying to be PC. If you suspect you might be in danger you may very well be.

Mr. de Becker has consulted politicians, celebritries, and other assorted dignitaries on security. I don’t how easy it would be to get a large quantity of his books to China but I do know that atleast here in America the original is available pretty easily. I found it at a bookstore for just a few dollars.

My instructor would give a big thumbs up to the ball point pen idea and he has shown us how to use one as a defensive weapon. He also preaches a lot that knees and elbows are great equalizers.

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:

Blondeguy,

Would it be possible to give some appropriate examples of this kind of psych conditioning methods? Are there any appropriate in this kind of class situation?

If you are uncomfortable sharing on a public forum, would you please consider PM’ing them to me?

On a side note, I just got off the phone (not too long ago) with a friend who is a 25 year experienced clinical psychologist with experience (within the last few years) with these kinds of women (primarily from treating a few of them here in this city in China). He said that most of them that he knows/treated/heard of are primarily stuck in “freeze mode” during attacks.

An example, (toned down for the public) is a girl who was sexually assaulted by a man she thought she knew (she “knew” him from the internet and he “loved” her and tried to have sex with her (make her lose her virginity) so she would have no choice but to marry him…). Basically, he pinned her down and tried to do it. Now, she pleaded and struggled, and avoided the…uhhh…“thrust” of it. But she was still assaulted and “entered” a little. Apparently, if she did some simple things like bite, for example, she could have escaped.

He (my friend, the Psych Doctor) says that even to train them in any basic way would ingrain more of a pro-active mindset that would get these girls out of these situations instead of freezing in confusion and disbelief.

Any thoughts on this?

Oh, and I’m going to ingrain the “Don’t plead or beg unless you plan to use it to launch a surprise attack” method. In my experience, attackers get more violent and empowered if they know they are in control…but if you get them thinking that way and then use the situation to your benefit (quickly changing and launching a devestating surprise attack), the effects can be very satisfactory.

Again, you all have my deepest thanks and respect.

AD[/quote]

Here’s are a few of the more well known, rudimentary, and less- involved methods derived from the military you might be able to use, as well as the history behind them:

In his book, “On Killing” Psych Prof David Grossman relays the facts that in WWII approx 15-20% of all U.S. riflemen were willing to fire their weapons in a lethal manner. In the Korean War, the number was 50%. When Vietnam came around, the U.S. Army had the number of riflemen willing to discharge their weapons in a lethal fashion at over 90%. These increases are attributed to the military’s use of human shaped silhouettes for marksmanship training.

Evidently, by using a “life-like” target for training, the soldier is more likely to become accustomed to the idea of shooting at a human shape, and thus, a human. In a chat I had with a former SF marksman, he stated that his first kills were, “just like shooting popups man. Same fuckin thing. Ain’t no different than the range.”

How do you incorporate this into Self-defense? One idea is to utilize a human shaped training bag like the BOB, which can be found through many retailers like this one: (http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,CEN-101691.html?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Products-_-PPC-_-CEN-101691)

What I like to do is color code various strike points and have your students thump on that. This builds muscle memory, gets them used to finding the target, AND striking a human form. Another thing to do is to get a REDMAN suit if possible.

  1. In Boot Camp (at least the old kind) trainees were yelled at. A lot. This, in addition to the sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and sore from pushups muscles, accustomed the soldiers to working in high stress environments. Forced beyond their old limits of pain and stress tolerance, soldiers are still required to perform certain functions to absolute perfection. This way, when the shit hit the fan and instead of shouts, there were bullets flying by, a soldier could-for instance- remedy a malfunctioning weapon without thought. It became rote memorization and muscle memory at that point. BTW, the purpose of muscle memory in all of these cases is not to function blindly, but to free your mind from the task at hand to concentrate on things like your surroundings.

To incorporate this into training, try(it’s tough) having your ladies mentally place themselves in the mindset they’ll have while under attack. Then start making TONS of noise and make them use their techniques against an opponent or a bag. This builds instinctual responses to given scenarios tht overcome the deadly “freeze”. To shock them further, you can throw ice water on them, blind fold them…the list goes on.

Obviously, training safety is paramount so limit the more severe techniques, or at least the power behind them. No killing in the classroom :wink:

Another drill, which also builds situational awareness, is to instruct the women to constantly think about being attacked while they’re on the street. Then, after they’ve contemplated an attack, they mentally work through an effective response and evacuation plan. And do this over and over, thinking of different scenarios each time. This tunes them to locating exits, potential threats, and gets their minds working on a proper response. Since their mind is also already in “fight mode” they’ll hopefully be less likely to freeze. Furthermore, I’ve heard that a person who mentally drills their lessons, even with no additional physical training, can retain approximately 75% of what they learned (if I remember correctly). This is far better than somebody who does nothing.

Those are just a few ideas to get your mind going. There are obviously lots of things you can do with the abovementioned concepts, so try those out. They’re fairly simple and go a long way.

To touch on some other stuff you brought up:

First, as you discussed the whole “give in as a surprise attack”, have them practice talking as part of their defense. Maintaining the motor mouth keeps the brain functioning and active and allows the “shock” to dissipate quickly.

Second, your story is spot on. As a Sexual Assault Victim Advocate (pseudo counselor) I’ve heard women state over and over how they couldn’t believe they were actually being assaulted. Or, they shut their minds off to be someplace else and thereby not have to be mentally present during the attack. And any number of other lines on the same thought. So, it is PARAMOUNT that you get these women to understand that in these circumstances, they are being assaulted and must respond. They must know what an assault is, and recognize that it is happening to them. If this does not occur, they will not fight back.

Also, in the U.S., over 80% of all sexual assaults are committed by somebody the victim knows. In this, you must teach your girls that once somebody does something not right (touching, attacking, verbal assault etc) that person is no longer they’re friend, and they must respond as they see fit.

I could go on for pages and pages, but I’ll stop here for now. Hope some of this helps. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. Lots of good stuff on this thread.
-B

[quote]blondeguy wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Blondeguy,

Nerve attacks don’t require fine motor skills to execute, well no more fine than eye attacks, punches, kicks, or any of the other arsenals I mentioned (with the exception of perhaps biting). They are easy to execute and effective.

Hey Sento,
I think it depends on what “nerve attacks” we’re talking about here. When I hear “nerve attacks,” people are usually refering to pressure points and funny bones. Unfortunately, I’ve found that pain compliance techniques such as pressure point striking and joint locking does not work for the average person in a hot situation.

Here’s why:

  1. Small target area- sure a pressure point might be about the same general size as an eye socket (depending on the point under discussion) but it’s easier to shove your fingers through a geltinous substance into a “cave” than it is to cause deep trauma as is necessary for a pressure point. Additionally, if the assailant is on drugs, immune to your target point, or generally a bad mofo, the nerve attack has little chance of succeeding, whereas an eye gouge will drop damn near anyone. If it doesn’t well, he’s blind AND you probably don’t want to be fighting King Kong anyway.

Also, in a fight, most people (even trained ones) are going to go for big attacks that need big, or at least forgiving, target areas- like knees or groins. This way, when the big looping swing/kick misses, it glances at least a small region of said area and causes at least some damage. Lastly, on the ground-where many people find themselves, unfortunately-a nerve attack is difficult. But if you teach soft point targets like eyes and groins, you’ve instantly enabled your student to rip, tear, shred and dismember. With a PP attack, they’ll maybe get a grunt or a tiny bit of wiggle room- if they’re lucky.

  1. Nerve attacks are commonly taught in conjunction with a lock of some kind. This requires that you stay with the person. Not bad if you are a cop, or well trained martial artist. A little woman on the street, jumped by any number of bad guys, is better off causing quick, severe, and lasting damage that allows her enough space to run faster than Forrest Gump on speed.

For instance a quick knee stomp, or an open hand ear slap with eye gouge and nutsack knee for good measure. Immediately followed by “AIIIEEE YAHH–HE TRIED TO RAPE ME HEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLPPPPP, FIRE FIRE, POLICE”.

  1. A good nerve attack requires a strike that has “penetration power”. Meaning that it goes layers of tissue deep. That’s tough to do. Especially for a female with little hard training.

Now, if I’m mistaken as to what you’re referring to in regards to “nerve attacks” please let me know. If not, those are my initial thoughts and I’m more than willing to discuss this further if you like. Perhaps we can both learn something from the exhange.
-B

[/quote]

Hi Blondeguy,

Well, actually there are many different ways that I have learned how to use nerve attacks. Yes, they can make effective targets for strikes. But, that is only one way.

You can also use them to create space, control, and weaken. What I mean is that if you know where they are, it’s not any harder to get to them, or utilize them, than it is to get to any other types of targets (of course your position will always determine what targets are appropriate). And it doesn’t necessarily take a strike that has penetration power. The simple action of pressing the thumb, elbow tip, chin, etc… into the area is enough to get results.

Deanosumo,

I’m going to have to somewhat disagree with you about your comment concerning the effects of punching someone in the nose. There are different types of fighters (naturally different). One person you punch in the nose might stop completely and run away. Another might back off and then rethink his plan of attack. Another might just smile at you, get “crazy eyes” and just keep coming.

Teaching people that their attacks will have a uniform effect on everyone they encounter can be dangerous. This is because if it doesn’t have that effect, then they’ll have to try to stop and figure out what to do next, which is not what you want to do in the heat of combat.

I’d also argue with having someone kiai in a real fight. This leaves one much more vulnerable to getting knocked out, having their teeth punched out, and biting off their tongue. I’d actually tell them to keep their teeth clenched to minimize their chances of these things happening.

Dweezil,

Yeah, after hearing you clarify what you meant I can’t say I disagree. Simplicity is a very good method.

As far as freezing. Well, I still don’t believe that it’s as universal a response as you suggest. I’m sure we’ve all heard of the “flight or fight” response to danger. Some people’s first response is to run, others is to fight, and yes others is to freeze. But, generally freezing is due to (as you eluded to) a lack of experience.

However, if you have people put the gloves on and the guy across the mat/ring is really trying to take your head off, then you learn to deal with the fear of being hit. If you grapple with people much bigger and stronger than you, then you learn how to deal with that fear as well. If you have people trying to bite, eye attack, nerve attack and use weapons on you in a real time setting, you learn to overcome those fears as well.

Now, of course this takes a considerable amount of time and yes, AlphaDragon probably doesn’t have that luxury with these women, so I understand that your statement is relavent to the current discussion. I just wanted to point out that it’s not necessarily the case in the long term.

As far as killer instinct. What’s interesting is that especially with women (at least in my experience) their killer instinct tends to be closely related to their maternal instinct. For instance, ask a woman what she would do if some guy tried to rape her. Her response will probably be that she’ll yell fire, or knee him in the balls, or some other rehearsed socially acceptable response.

However, ask the same woman what she would do if someone tried to rape her child and you’ll get a totally different kind of answer. Not only verbally different, but you’ll actually see the mental shift in her character. In that case, she will do anything and everything with absolutely no thought of whether or not it’s socially acceptable behavior. There’s killer instinct. The willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done. And her reasoning for doing it isn’t because the thought of tearing someone’s throat out appeals to her. But, instead it’s because the thought of what will happen if she doesn’t is worse.

Good training,

Sentoguy

Someone may have already said this but one tactic I’ve heard for rape prevention is if the woman does find herself restrained, gagging herself and forcing herself to vomit, preferably on herself and/or the attacker puts a heavy damper on things.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

Do you know any western women out there who might consent to be your assistant? She could touch the girls, plus you could demonstrate the simulated horror of an attack with her as victim.[/quote]

Yes I do and she comes to the class whenever she can (she is married and has work out here too), but is unable to come each week (maybe once every 2-3 weeks). She is a former Marine, which is good because I can rough her up some. :wink:

AD

[quote]
As far as killer instinct. What’s interesting is that especially with women (at least in my experience) their killer instinct tends to be closely related to their maternal instinct. For instance, ask a woman what she would do if some guy tried to rape her. Her response will probably be that she’ll yell fire, or knee him in the balls, or some other rehearsed socially acceptable response.

However, ask the same woman what she would do if someone tried to rape her child and you’ll get a totally different kind of answer. Not only verbally different, but you’ll actually see the mental shift in her character. In that case, she will do anything and everything with absolutely no thought of whether or not it’s socially acceptable behavior. There’s killer instinct. The willingness to do whatever it takes to get the job done. And her reasoning for doing it isn’t because the thought of tearing someone’s throat out appeals to her. But, instead it’s because the thought of what will happen if she doesn’t is worse.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

This statement really hit home with me, meaning I can definately see what you mean. I can recall seeing “that killer look” in quite a few mothers eyes when they see/think of a scenario involving their children.

Heck, even my own mother had that look when she thought crazy stuff (when I was a child) might happen to me.

I think “feral” is not even an appropriate word for this.

update One of my classes today (I’m a teacher out here…it’s my “normal job”) approached me after class and showed interest in this class. I will have to make a separate day/time for them as it appears that (if it all plays out) there will be 20-30 of them coming. We all know how “promises” are, but I must admit being rather surprised at the interest.

I told them this is not a martial arts/kung fu class, but a survival class. I gave a quick demo of eye gouging (more like digging behind the eye for the brain, actually…;P) and there was a look of disgust on all their faces. When I explained the purpose and necessity for such drastic measures, the “lightbulbs” went on.

I really want to do this right, because (God forbid) if they are attacked and they try something I show and it does not work (for whatever reason), I feel I (as the teachers) am responsible for whatever happens.

Side note: I’ve decided to keep this thread alive (hopefully not by myself) by posting recent classes/experiences and other related things. Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course, please I hope we can continue ongoing discussions, in the hopes of learning from each other.

And my deepest appreciation to the people who shared their insights. I’m pleasantly surprised at the wealth of information freely offered. I never expected those with this kind of training in their bg to be so forthcoming…again, thank you.

Most Sincerely,.

Jason (Alphadragon)

Update:

It’s late and I’m exhausted, but:

Well, had a new class added today. NOt much to say as it’s a beginners class. Emphasized avoidance/awareness and how serious these blows are. Emphasized for the girls to give property instead of fight.

I think this second class (the newest one) will be the biggest challenge as they are very new to this type of stuff (a good and bad thing, in actuality).

We did:

Guard “practice”
Driving elbow point strikes.
Push offs
Palm Strikes
Wrist Grab escapes

WHile we did practice 2 basic kicks, I decided to keep it more “upper body” focused as these girls are really new.

In the second class, I had a smaller showing this week, so we emphasized more on:

-Guard “practice”
-Breaking Shoulder grabs,.
-Driving elbow into push offs.
-dual ear palm slap into inside forearm neck strike ending into pushoff.
-Wrist grab and choke hold escapes.

Both classes ended with in place sprints for 10-30 seconds (as I felt appropriate) into in place jogs then back into sprints (anywhere from 5-10 times…I didn’t count), and 20 sets of bodyweight jumps (with bringing the feet up in front of the body and touching the soles with ones hands).

Seeing as I have no real end date at this moment (I’m considering going indefinately, as long as the interest is there), I’m going to keep things moving progressively steady versus “too fast” for them.

Comments and suggestions are most welcome.

AD