Questions for Atheist in America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.

222

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Simon Adebisi wrote:
So, all dogs do in fact go to heaven?[/quote]More properly speaking from a biblical basis. Animals ARE souls, but they are temporal only and cease to exist upon death so no. No dogs, or any other beings except man, go anywhere when they die. Only we bear the eternal image of God.
[/quote]

Interesting. Got some scripture for this?

223

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?

224

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?[/quote]

none exist in the natural world. You tell me.

225

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?[/quote]

none exist in the natural world. You tell me.[/quote]

Not correct. Ideas and emotions are the product of brain function. Various chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain combine to product emotions, ideas, and thoughts. A neurosurgeon can stimulate various parts of the brain with electrical impulses to make a patient see, hear, or experience things that aren’t there. But the experiences are very real to the patient. I don’t see anything supernatural about this.

226

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?[/quote]

none exist in the natural world. You tell me.[/quote]

Not correct. Ideas and emotions are the product of brain function. Various chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain combine to product emotions, ideas, and thoughts. A neurosurgeon can stimulate various parts of the brain with electrical impulses to make a patient see, hear, or experience things that aren’t there. But the experiences are very real to the patient. I don’t see anything supernatural about this. [/quote]

If you have the idea of a triangle in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. The triangle doesnâ??t.

If you state that the triangle exists, you believe in the supernatural.

If you have the concept of “good” in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. “Good” doesnâ??t.

The person earlier stated that they believe good exists. They believe in the supernatural.

The idea of a triangle and an actual triangle are 2 different things. Concepts like good and bad are nothing more than the abstract non-real concept in your brain.

However, the person who stated most atheists think good and bad exist. Doing so necessarily defined them as the real things, external to mental chemical reaction. This is a supernatural belief.

There is no doubt that the concept of good and bad exist, but that isn’t what is being discussed. What is being discussed is the existence of them.

227

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?[/quote]

none exist in the natural world. You tell me.[/quote]

Not correct. Ideas and emotions are the product of brain function. Various chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain combine to product emotions, ideas, and thoughts. A neurosurgeon can stimulate various parts of the brain with electrical impulses to make a patient see, hear, or experience things that aren’t there. But the experiences are very real to the patient. I don’t see anything supernatural about this. [/quote]

If you have the idea of a triangle in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. The triangle doesnâ??t.

If you state that the triangle exists, you believe in the supernatural.

If you have the concept of “good” in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. “Good” doesnâ??t.

The person earlier stated that they believe good exists. They believe in the supernatural.

The idea of a triangle and an actual triangle are 2 different things. Concepts like good and bad are nothing more than the abstract non-real concept in your brain.

However, the person who stated most atheists think good and bad exist. Doing so necessarily defined them as the real things, external to mental chemical reaction. This is a supernatural belief.

There is no doubt that the concept of good and bad exist, but that isn’t what is being discussed. What is being discussed is the existence of them.
[/quote]

What you’ve described is the difference between something that is tangible and something that is intangible. Just because something is intangible doesn’t make it supernatural. Let’s say I wanted to write a novel, but I’m kind of lazy, so I find a novel I really like, and put a new cover on the book that lists me as the author and sell it. Can I do this? No. Why not? Because that particular combination of letters has acquired a certain value. Physically, it is just letters on pages. Nothing special about letters on a page. But there is a story there, with interesting characters, and perhaps even a deeper meaning. Or in the case of non-fiction, there may be some valuable information. This is what you are paying for when you buy a book. For sure, these things are intangible, but I wouldn’t call it supernatural.

228

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

If you believe in good and bad, then you have a god of some sort. Good and bad are supernatural.[/quote]

Good and bad are words that we use to describe ideas in our–very natural–heads. Perhaps that’s all they are.

Or maybe not. I don’t know. No one does.[/quote]

“Most atheists I know, including me, say that there is good and bad.”

This is the statement I was commenting on. If you think good and bad exist, you aren’t atheist.

I never said anything about whether they do or not, or whether you personally do. But believing in them is logically equivalent to believing in god.[/quote]

SMH is again correct - good and bad are words we use to describe ideas. I suppose if someone believes in an absolute Kantian type of good and bad then we can say we are in the realm of the supernatural. But few people, even religious ones, believe in such absolutes. Even a concept such as killing is not absolute. For instance, it is justifiable to kill someone in self-defense or in the defense of others. Although I suppose if you asked a Catholic priest about masturbation he would say that masturbation was always “bad.”[/quote]

The statement I commented on stated that most atheists believe that good and bad exist, noted by the use of the word “is”.

An idea does not exist. Believing they exist goes far beyond noting them as the abstract result of a chemical reaction in your brain.

And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Are ideas, emotions, attitudes, etc. natural or supernatural?[/quote]

none exist in the natural world. You tell me.[/quote]

Not correct. Ideas and emotions are the product of brain function. Various chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain combine to product emotions, ideas, and thoughts. A neurosurgeon can stimulate various parts of the brain with electrical impulses to make a patient see, hear, or experience things that aren’t there. But the experiences are very real to the patient. I don’t see anything supernatural about this. [/quote]

If you have the idea of a triangle in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. The triangle doesnâ??t.

If you state that the triangle exists, you believe in the supernatural.

If you have the concept of “good” in your head, certain chemicals and reactions exist in your brain. “Good” doesnâ??t.

The person earlier stated that they believe good exists. They believe in the supernatural.

The idea of a triangle and an actual triangle are 2 different things. Concepts like good and bad are nothing more than the abstract non-real concept in your brain.

However, the person who stated most atheists think good and bad exist. Doing so necessarily defined them as the real things, external to mental chemical reaction. This is a supernatural belief.

There is no doubt that the concept of good and bad exist, but that isn’t what is being discussed. What is being discussed is the existence of them.
[/quote]

The term you’re looking for is “metaphysical”, not “supernatural”. Ideas, emotions, attitudes, and yes, values, are metaphysical but they are entirely natural. A dog feeling hungry or a rock having weight are both natural metaphysical qualities.

229

“Good” is a value judgement. A value judgement is a vocalization of a cerebral feeling articulated by a sentient being capable of language. All of this is natural.

Many people don’t actually believe in “good” and “bad” as products of some absolute, transcendent, and pervasive ethical code.

230

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Simon Adebisi wrote:
So, all dogs do in fact go to heaven?[/quote]More properly speaking from a biblical basis. Animals ARE souls, but they are temporal only and cease to exist upon death so no. No dogs, or any other beings except man, go anywhere when they die. Only we bear the eternal image of God.
[/quote]

Interesting. Got some scripture for this?[/quote]Which part? If animals being souls then I’ll have to dig out the Hebrew, but the same word is used interchangeably for man soul and animals at times for their life essence or being. We are explicitly told about the uniqueness of man which is how we know that he is. For instance in the first of Genesis verse 24 the word usually translated by something like creature is used of man as well. What’s also interesting is that the word translated by life is also used of plants sometimes. The new agers love this stuff and would have a point if it weren’t the clear declarations of God’s created order.

It’s been a while since I actually did this study.

231

Intangable is supernatural. A story is an arbitrary grouping of things. There is no such physical thing as a story.

Essentially, if it isn’t part of physics it is not part of nature. You are all still confusing the concept of someThing with the thing itself. The concept of a story exists as the chemical process of a brain. An actual story does not.

If I thought of a car, you wouldn’t claim a that car exists. If I thought of a traingle you wouldn’t say it exists, if I think of a story, that doesn’t exist either. If you thunk of good and evil, you cannot claim good and evil exist. Existance means independant of concept.

Without the supernatural, all there is is physics. As such there is no bad or good, or human rights, or ownership or value.

If you think good and evil exist, you believe in the supernatural. Unless me thinking of a porche means it exists.

Yall are in denial.oncept of thing does not equal thing.c

232

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Intangable is supernatural. A story is an arbitrary grouping of things. There is no such physical thing as a story.

Essentially, if it isn’t part of physics it is not part of nature. You are all still confusing the concept of someThing with the thing itself. The concept of a story exists as the chemical process of a brain. An actual story does not.

If I thought of a car, you wouldn’t claim a that car exists. If I thought of a traingle you wouldn’t say it exists, if I think of a story, that doesn’t exist either. If you thunk of good and evil, you cannot claim good and evil exist. Existance means independant of concept.

Without the supernatural, all there is is physics. As such there is no bad or good, or human rights, or ownership or value.

If you think good and evil exist, you believe in the supernatural. Unless me thinking of a porche means it exists.

Yall are in denial.oncept of thing does not equal thing.c[/quote]

I agree that a concept of a thing does not equal the thing itself, but I still don’t see how an intangible concept equals the supernatural. My guess is we’re not agreeing on the definition of “supernatural.” Here’s a really good definition: Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. Using this definition, an idea cannot be supernatural because we understand, at least to some extent, how ideas are created by the brain. If I imagine a car in my brain, it is true that the car doesn’t exist, but a brain scan will show what parts of my brain are working. A more invasive procedure would probably show various chemicals and neurons interacting. Although the result - an idea - is not something we can feel and touch, there is nothing supernatural about creating ideas because science can explain what is going on in my brain. Now, if I imagined a car and a car suddenly poofed into existence, THAT would be supernatural.

233

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Good and bad are entirely abstract concepts. They are not a part of the natural world.[/quote]

They are abstract concepts created by us (humans).

Humans are part of the natural world.

234

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And your thoughts about absolute morals are way off. Most people, including atheists, would agree that rape is always wrong. Murder out of jealousy is wrong. Murder for money is wrong. Est. That is not part of the fabric of the universe. Those are statements supernatural in nature.
[/quote]

Those acts are not conducive to a prosperous society, and as such are to the detriment of the species.

They are not supernatural. Saying they are does not make it so.

235

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Good and bad are entirely abstract concepts. They are not a part of the natural world.[/quote]

They are abstract concepts created by us (humans).

Humans are part of the natural world.[/quote]

Exactly. Case closed.

236

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Intangable is supernatural. A story is an arbitrary grouping of things. There is no such physical thing as a story.

Essentially, if it isn’t part of physics it is not part of nature. You are all still confusing the concept of someThing with the thing itself. The concept of a story exists as the chemical process of a brain. An actual story does not.

If I thought of a car, you wouldn’t claim a that car exists. If I thought of a traingle you wouldn’t say it exists, if I think of a story, that doesn’t exist either. If you thunk of good and evil, you cannot claim good and evil exist. Existance means independant of concept.

Without the supernatural, all there is is physics. As such there is no bad or good, or human rights, or ownership or value.

If you think good and evil exist, you believe in the supernatural. Unless me thinking of a porche means it exists.

Yall are in denial.oncept of thing does not equal thing.c[/quote]

Look up Metaphysics on Wiki, and you’ll understand what we’re talking about.

Ideas, values, emotions, math, etc. are ABSTRACT objects, as opposed to PHYSICAL objects. Both exist in the natural world. There is nothing supernatural about them.

Are you going to argue that the World of Narnia, as created by C. S. Lewis, is supernatural? It’s an idea, created by a man, with an entirely natural origin.

237

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Those acts are not conducive to a prosperous society, and as such are to the detriment of the species. >>>[/quote] Neither and so is Barack Obama, but that didn’t stop easily propagandized political simpletons from voting for him did it? [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< They are not supernatural. >>>[/quote]And how is it that you know this again? [quote]Makavali wrote: Saying they are does not make it so.[/quote]I guess saying that they aren’t does though? Knock it off already Mak. Yer drawers are down and yer butterfly boxers are showin.

238

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
easily propagandized
[/quote]

This is funny coming from someone seemingly infatuated with the Bible.

239

I am indeed a fool for Jesus. Captivated by the God of the bible who’s Word it is and very willingly so. Who’s fool are you?

240

I agree that Jesus was a cool guy. I guess there are worse people to be a fool for.