[quote]Professor X wrote:
a purpose for human creations. If this is the case, then why am I here?
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Why not?
[quote]vroom wrote:
If you think you have anything approaching the answer, when it has eluded humanity through the ages, then you need to expand your thinking.
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Not sure what you mean by “eluded”. The concept of living for something bigger than yourself is pretty common, historically and in contemporary society.
If everyone is so unique and individual, if there is no universal element that binds us all on some level, then how is that everyone without exception will know in their lifetime how it feels to be lonely. I mean, if we are all living in our own little, unique universe, speaking our own unique language, how is it we are able to empathize with others who experience tragic loss, even those who we dont even know or even met. How many times have you been moved by learning of the tragedy befallen someone who you dont even know? Why do you think that is?
I think its because we are all aware, and this awareness becomes more acute with time and experience, that we all share the same fate, that no one is spared (thats the idea of an indifferent universe I mentioned earlier). Most when they are younger dont believe that, usually people think they are the exception to what goes on around them.
This awareness - that we are all in the same boat - hopefully makes one a more compassionate, giving, loving person. However, I suppose that the empty gingo-ism of “life is short, so play hard” could be an alternative. But it seems to me that a person who subscribes to that really sells himself short, because it is full of ego and narcissism, full of “I”, which is captivating.
And if you think what Im saying here is at all original or obscure then I suggest you begin with Buddhist and Daoist philosophies, though the concepts are found all throughout world cultures. Ours is the only civilization in history that thinks people are so unique and individual. All other cultures realized the very basic truth that we are all in the same boat, part of a whole, though some may have a better seat than others.
[quote]PrincePaul wrote:
Although, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that obesity, poverty and a general lack of knowledge go hand in hand. I don’t really believe that people genuinely want to be sickly or compromise the health of their children. I just don’t think, by and large (no pun intended), they have been given the opportunity to know any better, or that concern over sheer survival has superceded any discussion of nutritional value. The disparity between the rich and poor in this country is huge, and gets bigger and bigger all the time. There seems a direct correlation between general health, education and affluence.
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Well, you are covering alot of territory with the above statement. First, you allude to the concept that humans are rational beings (classic Western liberal, Lockean philosophy). Therefore, all they need is the right information and they will make the right choices (you arent a economics major per chance?). However, as Nietzsche, Freud, and experience points out, humans are not rational, we are irrational. Then you use the sociological argument of nurture, opportunity.
This is all classic 19th century liberalism. I suggest reading the Critical Theorists who presented themselves the task of understanding the early 20th century, with 2 vicious world wars and something called the Holocaust perpetrated within Nazi Germany, a society by the way that was considered the cultural van guard of the rationalist philosophy you are refering to.
Fact is, people knowingly will choose that which is harmful, suicidal, murderous, destructive, individually and collectively, to themselves and others. In the former case, it can be meant positively. For example, a hero is someone who risks or experiences harm to self for the sake of another, even though the two may be absolute strangers. However, in the latter case, it is always negative.
And be aware that we live in a capitalist soceity, where everything is rationalized and measured out to the decimal place. But that is for another forum.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I gave my opinion.
Honestly - as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t matter one fucking bit what you, or any of the other “Life is not life unless you live it Hardcore” folks think.
You will die. I will die. I posted what makes me want to get up in the morning.
If you have trouble understanding that - maybe you are in the wrong thread. [/quote]
Reckon that sums it up perfectly.
Well, you are covering alot of territory with the above statement. First, you allude to the concept that humans are rational beings (classic Western liberal, Lockean philosophy). Therefore, all they need is the right information and they will make the right choices (you arent a economics major per chance?). However, as Nietzsche, Freud, and experience points out, humans are not rational, we are irrational. Then you use the sociological argument of nurture, opportunity.
This is all classic 19th century liberalism. I suggest reading the Critical Theorists who presented themselves the task of understanding the early 20th century, with 2 vicious world wars and something called the Holocaust perpetrated within Nazi Germany, a society by the way that was considered the cultural van guard of the rationalist philosophy you are refering to.
Fact is, people knowingly will choose that which is harmful, suicidal, murderous, destructive, individually and collectively, to themselves and others. In the former case, it can be meant positively. For example, a hero is someone who risks or experiences harm to self for the sake of another, even though the two may be absolute strangers. However, in the latter case, it is always negative.
And be aware that we live in a capitalist soceity, where everything is rationalized and measured out to the decimal place. But that is for another forum.[/quote]
Thanks, I’ll take you up on those reading suggestions. You wouldn’t happen to be a philosophy major, per chance? I actually took a degree in Wildlife biology, within the forestry department.
Ok, so I subscribe to classic Western liberal, Lockean philosophy. Is this philosophical perspective not valid? It seems to me that personal experience has shown me that in fact it is.
the fact that people aren’t rational is in line with my original point: To a large extent, we are driven by sometimes irrational and thus confounding acts that satisfy a natural, biological urge to procreate and enhance our genetic stock. It has been suggested by Schopenhauer that we are split into conscious and unconscious selves, the unconscious governed by the will-to-life, the conscious subservient to it and unable to learn of all it’s plans.
So, I agree with you there. People aren’t really all that rational. But, I would still submit that, given the right information, people are at least more likely to make choices that benefit them, rather than destructive choices.
“Fact is, people knowingly will choose that which is harmful, suicidal, murderous, destructive, individually and collectively, to themselves…”
Interesting. Can you give an example of this other than the hero? I can’t think of one, wherein those individuals didn’t believe, on some level, they were benefitting from the experience. The biology of bravery is an interesting topic as well. Brain scans have shown that there are those of us have lower baseline levels of brain activity, i.e. somewhat of a decreased bloodflow to the brain. For these folks, the chemicals that accompany a crisis actually raise brain activity to normal levels. As a result they feel more alert, goal oriented and happy. Enter the firefighter. This by no means that firefighters are dumb, it just means they are less anxious, restless people. They also have the “nurture” element on their side. They’re often raised by rule-oriented, disciplined parents who instill respect, honor and altruism as central values. Why do they do this? Maybe it is because they see these values as inherent in attracting others, communities of similar minded people, which in turn will benefit future offspring.
I don’t know, just a thought.
“Fact is, people knowingly will choose that which is harmful, suicidal, murderous, destructive, individually and collectively, to themselves…”
Interesting. Can you give an example of this other than the hero?
Yes. The alcoholic, or drug addict, or any of the other number of people the engage in self destructive behavior. I know that at least for myself, I tend to do stupid things when I face bad situations. I bottle emotions in an unconscious effort not to deal with them. I gain stability in the short term, but I know it’s a negative behavior pattern.
On an unrelated note, collective selfishness is drawn up pretty well in Ayn Rand’s books. I liked the Fountainhead more, but Atlas Shrugged explains it better. In a lot of ways, I buy it. Even acts of charity, or heroism, tend to be selfish in that people get something from that. The feeling of having helped, or personal satisfaction, or gratitude. or in a more cynical light, a tax write off and a nice extra curricular activity for college. We are very much a selfish race. The question is if that’s bad.
[quote]Buoycall wrote:
“Fact is, people knowingly will choose that which is harmful, suicidal, murderous, destructive, individually and collectively, to themselves…”
Interesting. Can you give an example of this other than the hero?
Yes. The alcoholic, or drug addict, or any of the other number of people the engage in self destructive behavior. I know that at least for myself, I tend to do stupid things when I face bad situations. I bottle emotions in an unconscious effort not to deal with them. I gain stability in the short term, but I know it’s a negative behavior pattern.
On an unrelated note, collective selfishness is drawn up pretty well in Ayn Rand’s books. I liked the Fountainhead more, but Atlas Shrugged explains it better. In a lot of ways, I buy it. Even acts of charity, or heroism, tend to be selfish in that people get something from that. The feeling of having helped, or personal satisfaction, or gratitude. or in a more cynical light, a tax write off and a nice extra curricular activity for college. We are very much a selfish race. The question is if that’s bad.[/quote]
I have a friend who was, is clinically depressed. In his depressive state, two years ago he married a woman who, well, let’s just say would be an undesirable choice for any man. So, I guess it could be argued that regardless of the information, he chose a self destructive path.
I guess my arguement there, is that this is a diseased individual, and therefore isn’t capable of “rational” decisions. The same arguement could be considered for the alcoholic, or drug addict (?).
[quote]PrincePaul wrote:
the fact that people aren’t rational is in line with my original point: To a large extent, we are driven by sometimes irrational and thus confounding acts that satisfy a natural, biological urge to procreate and enhance our genetic stock.
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Not sure what you mean by “instinct”. Rationalism subscribed to a teleological interpretation of history, that is that history is progressive. Therefore, rationalism was deemed as the best means to continue progress.
Instinct suggests a natural process that heightens the likelyhood of survival. If irrational behaviour does the opposite, ie people will, individually and collectively, do that which heightens the risk of being removed from the gene pool, then irrationality perhaps is not instinctual.
Im not sure what other interpretations could exist re. these terms.
I double majored in Politics and History.
[quote]Buoycall wrote:
Yes. The alcoholic, or drug addict, or any of the other number of people the engage in self destructive behavior. I know that at least for myself, I tend to do stupid things when I face bad situations. I bottle emotions in an unconscious effort not to deal with them. I gain stability in the short term, but I know it’s a negative behavior pattern.
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My example of the hero was the positive example of irrational behaviour, if the definition of same is accepted as being that which is beneficial for the person taking the risk. But yes, your examples are definitely examples of the negative expression of irrational behaviour. Both are at least potentially destructive.
So the question follows – if people are rational and instinctual, and the principles of both are to enhance survival, then why do people, individually and collectively act irrationaly? Of course, it also raises the question how the rational and the instinctual can be aligned, as the latter is supposedly from a non-cognitive source, which rationalism definitely is not.
[quote]Scotacus wrote:
And if you think what Im saying here is at all original or obscure then I suggest you begin with Buddhist and Daoist philosophies, though the concepts are found all throughout world cultures. Ours is the only civilization in history that thinks people are so unique and individual. All other cultures realized the very basic truth that we are all in the same boat, part of a whole, though some may have a better seat than others.
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Scotacus, no, I think what you are saying is too trivial. Clearly we are all human and share a lot of traits, but that does not mean there is any type of “truth” that we should all ascribe to.
Sure, we are all on the same planet, we all have emotions, we all have similar abilities and capabilities, but we all choose, decide or fall into what we feel is our truth.
Obviously, given the number of people, there are going to be a lot of people with the same general ideas, but it is not anything approaching a “fact” that there is only one viewpoint on these matters and that it must conform to the one you suggest.
There are various types of “positives” in life, and I suspect that most people would suggest that living them, or embracing them, is the way to go… but regardless, while philosophies may be fully realized internally, they are not universally adopted or applicable.
I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life, no man can come to the Father except through me.
Words of Jesus in Gospel of John 14:6
[quote]Scotacus wrote:
I think its because we are all aware, and this awareness becomes more acute with time and experience, that we all share the same fate, that no one is spared (thats the idea of an indifferent universe I mentioned earlier).
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First I want to say that I’m so impressed by this thread for a bunch of weightlifters and bodybuilders this is a pretty deep discussion. How cool!!
I’m not a philosophy major my degree is in geophysics. Being a scientist by education I have to ask the observation question. Does it not seem like awareness is the purpose of life in general? All things to some extent or another are aware would be an acceptable observation.
Well maybe not a rock, but who is to say a rock is not aware? If all things are aware then could awareness be the purpose or meaning of life? Just a question!
Asking the question about what gives life meaning or purpose is a huge question, and on a universal level possibly one that none of us will ever have a complete answer to. Isn’t that the question that every major philosophy and religion as attempted to impart their version of an answer to?
Aside from a universal question, on a personal level what gives life meaning and purpose? One could talk on the topic for years, and each answer would be as meaningful to each as any other!
I have no answers for anyone. I’ve long ago dumped any religeous beliefs, and from my limited perception of life I’ve found that life takes on a greater meaning and purpose more as a function of the beliefs that I can drop, rather than those that I can gain. Being able to drop the incessent chatter of the mind, quiet my mind and let go of the I ME, thoughts provides a greater feeling of purpose than wrapping myself in selfish concerns. Just a simple observation of myself that I can offer here!
Good posts all of you, pretty deep subject and good reading!
Thanks!
I’ll tell you why I think I’m supposed to be here, but remember while reading this, I’m not doing a very good job of it most days.
According to my religious beliefs I am here to serve. To live Christ’s example. (Not trying to start a religious thread, these are just my own beliefs, ok?) However, I do not have a very healthy love of my fellow man. I find most people to be dirty, dishonest and a general nuisance. I live in world where I am constantly bombarded by dishonest and insulting advertising for all manor of crap. People who are constantly in a hurry for one reason or another. I’m guilty of it also. Each day is lived in conflict like this. Between what I think I should do and what I actually do. I know on Sundays after communion, I for a brief moment have a clean slate. It takes about 30 seconds for me to screw it all up again. I should just pull up a chair and stay in line.
I would have fared better spiritually in an earlier time I think.
It is a very hard world to not be a hypocrite in.
Purpose - To serve Him. Am I succeeding? Probably not. Thankfully, He loves me anyway. I have more than I deserve.
Professor, you and I have had our share of differences, but you are a rare person that makes me actually appreciate diversity in individuals. My gf is like that also. I think its because of intelligence and respect.
(I used to think of Vroom like that till I found out he couldn’t deadlift. ha.)
I just try to stay as focused as I can on what’s important to me. My kids, my gf… I’m coming to grips with I can’t change the world, but I can try and make my little house the best it can be. Hopefully be a positive influence by example. I’m sure in the next 2 minutes I’ll fail again at that also. But I’m not gonna give up the struggle. Maybe in the next 2 minutes I’ll be successful. Can’t win if you don’t play!
Good topic. Now picture someone with a hanky tied in 4 corners on their head. “My brain hurts!”