Question~

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61

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Gotta disagree with you there without getting into a pissing match. They are not just labels to me, they are principles and values I live my life by. Life’s mysteries are great but I could give two shits about the cherry blossoms and how sublime they are. They dont do anything to turn me into the kind of man and person I aspire to be.

A

kroby wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Great thread Prof. I think about these things as well and for me personally, I am here to carve out my piece of this world. I do not expect anyone to give me anything but somehow someway with hard work, dedication and honor I plan to better myself physically, emotionally, spirtitually and intellectually.

I want to make my folks proud and surpass my mom and dad’s great achievements. I intend to raise my kids with that same mindset to better themselves to the point they surpass those who came before then.

I apply these same principles when it comes to the iron game as for me it builds discipine, character and integrity.

A

AA, honor, pride and integrity… these are but labels. Don’t get caught up in lables, lest you miss out on the sublime mysteries of life. Say, something so inconsequetial as a cherry blossom. So delicate, so transient. Certainly something cherishable, no? The blossom has no pride or honor. Yet it has immeasurable value.

[/quote]

ANYTHING can be perceived as a label. But if you walk your talk, then these words cease to be labels, and serve more as a personal code of life. Living a life of honor, pride, and integrity does not suggest that one cannot appreciate a cherry blossom. The two certainly are not mutually exclusive.

Being driven by the voice inside that says “Do more, be more!” doesn’t mean that you can’t “stop and smell the roses” and appreciate their beauty.

62

Fair enough but for me personally, beautiful is the sight of a bent bar stacked with iron trying to crush me. I will take the smell of rusty iron in a dungeon over the smell of roses anytime.

[quote]jjblaze wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Gotta disagree with you there without getting into a pissing match. They are not just labels to me, they are principles and values I live my life by. Life’s mysteries are great but I could give two shits about the cherry blossoms and how sublime they are. They dont do anything to turn me into the kind of man and person I aspire to be.

A

kroby wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Great thread Prof. I think about these things as well and for me personally, I am here to carve out my piece of this world. I do not expect anyone to give me anything but somehow someway with hard work, dedication and honor I plan to better myself physically, emotionally, spirtitually and intellectually.

I want to make my folks proud and surpass my mom and dad’s great achievements. I intend to raise my kids with that same mindset to better themselves to the point they surpass those who came before then.

I apply these same principles when it comes to the iron game as for me it builds discipine, character and integrity.

A

AA, honor, pride and integrity… these are but labels. Don’t get caught up in lables, lest you miss out on the sublime mysteries of life. Say, something so inconsequetial as a cherry blossom. So delicate, so transient. Certainly something cherishable, no? The blossom has no pride or honor. Yet it has immeasurable value.

ANYTHING can be perceived as a label. But if you walk your talk, then these words cease to be labels, and serve more as a personal code of life. Living a life of honor, pride, and integrity does not suggest that one cannot appreciate a cherry blossom. The two certainly are not mutually exclusive.

Being driven by the voice inside that says “Do more, be more!” doesn’t mean that you can’t “stop and smell the roses” and appreciate their beauty.[/quote]

63

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Fair enough but for me personally, beautiful is the sight of a bent bar stacked with iron trying to crush me. I will take the smell of rusty iron in a dungeon over the smell of roses anytime.

jjblaze wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Gotta disagree with you there without getting into a pissing match. They are not just labels to me, they are principles and values I live my life by. Life’s mysteries are great but I could give two shits about the cherry blossoms and how sublime they are. They dont do anything to turn me into the kind of man and person I aspire to be.

A

kroby wrote:
Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Great thread Prof. I think about these things as well and for me personally, I am here to carve out my piece of this world. I do not expect anyone to give me anything but somehow someway with hard work, dedication and honor I plan to better myself physically, emotionally, spirtitually and intellectually.

I want to make my folks proud and surpass my mom and dad’s great achievements. I intend to raise my kids with that same mindset to better themselves to the point they surpass those who came before then.

I apply these same principles when it comes to the iron game as for me it builds discipine, character and integrity.

A

AA, honor, pride and integrity… these are but labels. Don’t get caught up in lables, lest you miss out on the sublime mysteries of life. Say, something so inconsequetial as a cherry blossom. So delicate, so transient. Certainly something cherishable, no? The blossom has no pride or honor. Yet it has immeasurable value.

ANYTHING can be perceived as a label. But if you walk your talk, then these words cease to be labels, and serve more as a personal code of life. Living a life of honor, pride, and integrity does not suggest that one cannot appreciate a cherry blossom. The two certainly are not mutually exclusive.

Being driven by the voice inside that says “Do more, be more!” doesn’t mean that you can’t “stop and smell the roses” and appreciate their beauty.

[/quote]

I hear ya AA. In my post I was more disagreeing w/ Kroby’s thoughts that “getting caught up in labels” like honor, pride, and integrity can prevent you from recognizing the value of a cherry blossom, not suggesting that YOU should stop and smell the roses as opposed to smelling the iron, so to speak. It was the suggestion that these were just labels that I didn’t agree with, because they are more than that.

Watching football today(GO UM, one week 'til you bury OSU!) with a twelve pack of Stella Artois has obviously impeded my ability to create a concise thought. You’re obviously committed, and if iron is your rose, then rock on brother. At least you’ve found your WHY.

64

If you are still living at home - you can’t honestly opine here.

If you are still living in the make-believe world of college - you can’t honestly opine here.

Life is learned through living. Through getting up every morning and doing it again.

Whether you believe in a supreme being, or not - you will continue to live life until you die. I don’t think life gives a shit what you think about it - it is going to happen to you regardless.

So what do you do with the inescapable fact that you live until you die?

Maybe things are simpler here - but I kiss my kids every morning before they leave for school. I kiss my wife every chance I get, and I try to honor them with my actions.

I want my kids to be proud of their old man, and I want my wife to know that she didn’t make a mistake 15 years ago.

The rest is just fluff.

65

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Life is learned through living. Through getting up every morning and doing it again.

Whether you believe in a supreme being, or not - you will continue to live life until you die. I don’t think life gives a shit what you think about it - it is going to happen to you regardless.

So what do you do with the inescapable fact that you live until you die?

Maybe things are simpler here - but I kiss my kids every morning before they leave for school. I kiss my wife every chance I get, and I try to honor them with my actions.

I want my kids to be proud of their old man, and I want my wife to know that she didn’t make a mistake 15 years ago.

The rest is just fluff. [/quote]

Exactly. Thats what Nietzsche was getting at. Life is indifferent. The same forces that destroy and create galaxies, stars, planets, habitats etc do not differentiate between humans and the rest of nature; we are caught up in it and have the same value as fish, mountains, and space dust, from the perspective of nature. Gods were invented as a means to “control” the uncontrollable.

And youve articulated the only healthy tool that humans have to counter such reality – love.

And I respecfully disagree with the notion that life is about chasing after a restless, nameless pursuit for its own sake. Thats straight from the ad-copy of Madison Avenue. Such things are distractions, and ultimately narcissistic; if all one has is such pursuits in time they will learn to hate those things.

Life is about love, love for others, as exemplified by rainjack’s posting. If your pursuits are not taking you in that direction then you are chasing the wind.

66

It sounds like some folks are giving us the answer, as opposed to an answer…

67

Exactly. Even when I state this is a personal opinion I am chasing the wind and should be paying attention to cherry blossems and roses. I am not the last fucking samurai. I am persuing my own destiny and fulfilling MY purpose in this world, not anyone else’s.

A

[quote]vroom wrote:
It sounds like some folks are giving us the answer, as opposed to an answer…[/quote]

68

[quote]vroom wrote:
It sounds like some folks are giving us the answer, as opposed to an answer…[/quote]

This is what I’ve been trying to say. Reality just is. It’s what WE make of it. It’s different for each and every one of us.

Let me play devil’s advocate. We, here, see suicide bombers killing every day in Iraq. Do we see this as an honorable action? Certainly not. Do they, in Iraq? Absolutely. Honor to one is vile, disgusting and cowardice to another. This is what labels are. A stage for conflict. I’m not knocking you AA. You do what makes you happy. That’s what matters. Many don’t. They live lives, squandering the Now for some make believe future. Like the suicide bomber.

When you look in your kids bedroom while they’re asleep, just to look at them. That’s the Now. That’s smelling the roses. You don’t have to be some samurai. Just be caring. That is the best symptom that you’re alive, not just living.

69

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Exactly. Even when I state this is a personal opinion I am chasing the wind and should be paying attention to cherry blossems and roses. I am not the last fucking samurai. I am persuing my own destiny and fulfilling MY purpose in this world, not anyone else’s.

A

vroom wrote:
It sounds like some folks are giving us the answer, as opposed to an answer…

[/quote]

Its seems Im being implicated here…?

Anyway, all Im merely saying is that if one attempts to substitute pursuits for meaningful relationships then they are in for disappointment.

Pursuing your interests/passions is a sign of maturity, depth of character, which will likely better enable you to connect with others. So if its doing arithmetic, sniffing daisies or lifting weights – knock yourself out! That is the subjective part.

However, to say that humans are absolutely subjective beings is taking the subjectivity too far. We are not each living in a wholly unique universe. And, since a theme of this thread has concerned finding meaning or purpose in life I am suggesting there is a common denominator, exemplified in rainjack’s posting, and summed up in a word – love… the ability to connect meaningfully with another.

So I discount this whole bullshit rap about us being on our own little journeys, as if as individuals we are all so unique and special. Even subjectively no one does anything that many others arent also doing (hence websites like this one).

But to have a meaningful, purposeful life one must (as in the answer, and not an answer) love another (which implies being part of/giving oneself to something bigger than oneself).

And what is, I think, the largest roadblock most face in their inability to do this? Simple conceit, the inability, or refusal, to get over oneself.

70

[quote]Scotacus wrote:
But to have a meaningful, purposeful life one must (as in the answer, and not an answer) love another (which implies being part of/giving oneself to something bigger than oneself).

And what is, I think, the largest roadblock most face in their inability to do this? Simple conceit, the inability, or refusal, to get over oneself.[/quote]

This is your judgment… or as Kroby puts it, the labels you have applied or chosen.

I’m not arguing that love isn’t important or that you shouldn’t find meaning in your life through that.

However, I will argue that for many people, finding love is not their sole purpose in life. There can be room for other meaningful issues. In fact, we often find and love people because of the passions or ideals they already have in their life.

71

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m not arguing that love isn’t important or that you shouldn’t find meaning in your life through that.

However, I will argue that for many people, finding love is not their sole purpose in life. There can be room for other meaningful issues. In fact, we often find and love people because of the passions or ideals they already have in their life.[/quote]

Youre creating a false dichotomy. Where did I say one must follow their subjective pursuits or love?? In fact, if you had paid attention to my post youd realize that I explicitly stated your conclusion in the second paragraph.

And I never said life is about “finding love” (as in, that “special someone”, which is how you seem to mean it). What Im talking about is giving love (though if you give it itll likely come back to you, though perhaps not how or when you expect it). Doing the day to day grind, no matter how one feels about it, is first and foremost about giving love.

The greatest thing about love is not just about receiving it, but being able to give it. It is in both the receiving and the giving, but primarly the latter, where we find freedom. One can do the former (receive) without necessarily being able or willing to do the latter, but the converse is not true.

And to give love, as in doing the hard work to get over ourselves, takes commitment, authenticity, character – all those things that AA mentions, so I dont understand where this dichotomy you mention comes from.

72

Dude, if you are giving us the answer, I’m afraid you still aren’t over yourself yet…

73

[quote]vroom wrote:
Dude, if you are giving us the answer, I’m afraid you still aren’t over yourself yet…[/quote]

And you say this without providing any sustainable argument that addresses anything Ive said… so, wtf??..

74

[quote]Scotacus wrote:
vroom wrote:
Dude, if you are giving us the answer, I’m afraid you still aren’t over yourself yet…

And you say this without providing any sustainable argument that addresses anything Ive said… so, wtf??..

[/quote]

And if it sounds like “I’m” giving you “‘the’” answer then it would seem you dont expose yourself to much more than weightlifting articles.

75

[quote]vroom wrote:
It sounds like some folks are giving us the answer, as opposed to an answer…[/quote]

I don’t know who this is directed at - but I could give a shit about “the answer”.

I gave my opinion.

Honestly - as far as I am concerned, it doesn’t matter one fucking bit what you, or any of the other “Life is not life unless you live it Hardcore” folks think.

You will die. I will die. I posted what makes me want to get up in the morning.

If you have trouble understanding that - maybe you are in the wrong thread.

76

“However, you do have a purpose, don’t you? You feel it as the motivator waking you up in the morning, causing you to go to school, to search for friends, to have sex and to eat. You feel hints of it upon logging into a forum with the hopes of finding like minded individuals being present who also felt they had a purpose stronger than simply the act of being.”

In my mind, educating yourself, creating community, eating, finding sexual partners, logging on to online forums, is simply about enhancing your genetic stock and survival of the species. All acts, whether individual or collective, are inherently selfish, and rightfully so. Even if you feel that you don’t want children, all actions that we take bespeak of our instinctual desire to breed successfully and promote our individual lineage.

To other animals, for whom the conscious awareness of their existence does not exist, they don’t ask these questions; they simply obey instincts that we all share, but are often unaware of.

j.

77

[quote]PrincePaul wrote:
All acts, whether individual or collective, are inherently selfish, and rightfully so.
[/quote]

Im not sure I understand what “collective selfishness” is…

[quote]
To other animals, for whom the conscious awareness of their existence does not exist, they don’t ask these questions; they simply obey instincts that we all share, but are often unaware of.
j. [/quote]

The irony of this sentiment of course is that humans obviously do not simply follow instinct for the betterment of their genetic pool. Take a look around. Our society consistantly does what is diametrically opposite. Most are obese and heading for a life of sickness, weakness and premature death because they dont follow these “instincts” you suggest.

Collectively, we have created a society that knowingly destroys its own environment and habitats and hence its own chance for even ultimate survival. A quick glance up from those 19th century European sociologists youve evidently been reading belies the claims of same.

78

[quote]Scotacus wrote:
PrincePaul wrote:
All acts, whether individual or collective, are inherently selfish, and rightfully so.

Im not sure I understand what “collective selfishness” is…

To other animals, for whom the conscious awareness of their existence does not exist, they don’t ask these questions; they simply obey instincts that we all share, but are often unaware of.
j.

The irony of this sentiment of course is that humans obviously do not simply follow instinct for the betterment of their genetic pool. Take a look around. Our society consistantly does what is diametrically opposite. Most are obese and heading for a life of sickness, weakness and premature death because they dont follow these “instincts” you suggest.

Collectively, we have created a society that knowingly destroys its own environment and habitats and hence its own chance for even ultimate survival. A quick glance up from those 19th century European sociologists youve evidently been reading belies the claims of same.
[/quote]

Your point about those heading for a life of sickness is a good one. I suppose I am speaking in all-embracing or blanketed terms, and that never really works.
Although, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that obesity, poverty and a general lack of knowledge go hand in hand. I don’t really believe that people genuinely want to be sickly or compromise the health of their children. I just don’t think, by and large (no pun intended), they have been given the opportunity to know any better, or that concern over sheer survival has superceded any discussion of nutritional value. The disparity between the rich and poor in this country is huge, and gets bigger and bigger all the time. There seems a direct correlation between general health, education and affluence.

“collective selfishness” refers only to the idea that there are times when diplomacy works better in our individual favor, as opposed to unilateral action.

There are those for whom destruction of the environment is believed to be a calculated and affordable cost. I don’t agree with this sentiment, but I still believe that political policy which allows drilling in the arctic, clear cutting national forests, or exploitation of any other finite resources, is done with the intention that it will bring personal gain and prosperity for future generations, specifically that of their own kin.
If, acting with diplomacy, enacting conservation policy and working for solutions for the greater common good, enhance our personal opportunities for improvements in of our genetic stock, they will be embraced.
The political perspective, values and knowledge base are different, but I still think that the instincts are the same.

79

Rainjack,

Relax. There is a big difference between saying “this is how my life works” and “this is how everyone’s life should work”.

80

[quote]Scotacus wrote:
And you say this without providing any sustainable argument that addresses anything Ive said… so, wtf??..
[/quote]

I don’t think you get what I’m saying at all.

There have been billions of people on the planet. There are billions of people on the planet. If you think you have anything approaching the answer, when it has eluded humanity through the ages, then you need to expand your thinking.

If you are merely describing what is in your life, or what works for you, or the answer for you, then that is an entirely different issue.

However, your language, your presentation, makes it sound like you have an absolute that everyone else needs to incorporate as well. At the same time you talk about getting over oneself.

The two seemed mutually exclusive.

That being said, I’m not arguing that giving or loving or sacrifice or duty are not important concepts that can or should provide meaning or purpose to many people.

Heck, I’m not claiming I have any answers, but I have pointed at some things that seem to occupy the minds of many people… and your viewpoint certainly is in that set.

Heck, the only thing I’m claiming is that it is virtually impossible to have the answer or to absolutely know what is needed in the lives of other people. I believe we are varied and that our values and priorities are varied…

Where those values differ there may be potential or opportunity. Where they agree there may also be potentials or opportunities.

I don’t know about you, but I rarely entertain thoughts at these levels, as I get too busy just living, just getting through the hustle and bustle of my day. Making the sacrifices it takes to get through the daily grind of simple reality.