i found it.
thank you a lot!
Yowch, sorry you’re taking it that way Paul, I thought I was being respectful, and never would have offered my own opinions if you hadn’t said what I thought was the go-ahead.
1- I only offered my background because someone asked
2- I KNOW I don’t have all the answers, but in hindsight I can’t lie, I did pretty darn good as a competitor as well as a coach to high level competitors, so yeah, at this point, I do like to think that I’ve got some credibility. I’m not some online troll disagreeing just to disagree.
Again, not trying to rub you the wrong way. The admin here thought you deserved your own forum and that’s great. I never meant to come in here and upset your apple cart.
I’ll go back to the rest of the forums where I like to think I’ve been helpful to others for years.
S
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Take your argument to Mike Israetel.
Actually rewatched a podcast with him. Although he believes 4 RIR can stimulate growth, he said 1-2 RIR is probably the best way to train.
As far as intensity goes, most people seem to think that’s a good idea. Volume on the other hand…
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That’s what I don’t get with him, why spend a week or two doing stuff you know is suboptimal? I started an argument/discussion with him on Facebook a while back on this topic and all he could say is that the “literature” shows that more volume=more hypertrophy, but even Krieger says there is a limit.
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Failure 2 to 3 sets a week
1-2 reps short 5 to 8 sets a week
Something like that would be optimal for many.
That’s a fair point, it would seem that maintaining intensity at 1-2 RIR while adding volume or maintaining volume while increasing intensity (from 1-2 RIR to failure to drop sets) would make more sense.
I’m not sure but I think he believes in the possibility of overreaching for hypertrophy so maybe the easy first couple weeks set him up for high volume, high intensity overreaching before deloading. Don’t know his thoughts though, I’m leaning the other direction on that one since I think overreaching has only been proven with strength rather than hypertrophy.
Either way, gives a few options to try out and see what happens
Jordan seems to be on the same page, for legs 10-12 work sets per week any more his lifts (logbook) would be down, have a run of 8 weeks trying to increment the weight or an extra rep, then a back off week.
from what a couple of my buddies say JP likes a 2 on 1 off, 1 on 1 off
push
legs
off
pull
off
Repeat
he does 2-3 exercises for big body parts, ramps up to a heavy ass fail set, then drops the load and does one more fail set, then moves exercises. and he keeps a LOG BOOK!
lots of calories. both my buddies were worried about adding too much fluff with the calories he wanted them to consume. it was close to 4,000 calories and both of them were in the 190s.
progressive weights, progressive food.
Actually I did ask a question regarding intensity and frequency but went ignored.
To reiterate, trying to understand which is better (and why) between something like:
- Push Pull Legs split
Push day (say, Monday)
Bench - work up to failure or almost failure, say 10 reps with 225lbs
Incline DB bench - top set of 8 reps to failure with 60lbs dumbbells
Weighted dips - top set of 8 reps to failure with +40lbs
vs
- Full body split
Monday - bench, top set 10x225lbs
Wednesday - Incline DB bench top set of 10 reps to failure with 60lbs dumbbells
Friday - Weighted dips, top set of 8 reps +55lbs
both options have heavy top sets brought to failure or close to it. First one gets failure back to back in each exercise of overlapping muscle groups, but builds fatigue that doesn’t allow the same rep/weight PRs progression. Second one splits failure on multiple days, but does leave more room for setting PRs because each day you perform the push exercise while fresh(er).
Which one is better, and most importantly, why?
Dont sweat it. PC’s ego is too big to understand, not a personal attack, just what I’ve come to realize through this thread and forum. Keep adding perspective, we all appreciate it, and use it. Just because it’s PC’s forum does not mean you should not share your opinion.
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The first one is better for sarcoplastic hypertrophy.
The second one is better for neurological efficiency.
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I don’t believe that it has been proven for either, it is a theory. I have discussed this topic with (separately) Josh Bryant, Mike Tuchscherer, and Borge Fagerli and they all say that they don’t think that intentional overreaching works for strength. It never worked for me either.
Has nothing to do with ego. And everything to do with where I’m going to spend my time, and energy. Stu wants to create dick measuring contests, which is why he keeps giving his resume with every post. I can only read so many times about how many people he’s trained and his success as a natural bodybuilder. Yawn.
I’ve already given anecdotal and scientific data to support my stance and the principles I’ve talked about here. I don’t have a desire to go back and forth with someone every other post. So I’m not.
If people want to pick Stu’s brain then they can ask him questions. If I had an “ego” about this topic I’d stay in here and do the back and forth thing trying to be “right”. If people want to hear from Stu on this topic they can ask him. I’ve given tons of information about it and people are free to do what they want to do with it.
So there you go.
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Ok Paul, but this is YOUR forum and YOUR thread and we want info from YOU. T-Nation gave you this space for this reason. Stu is welcome to join as anyone else with significant or insignificant resume (doesn’t matter) as long as it’s polite and constructive discussion (and you are not obbliged to communicaze with him) This is the purpose of forums.
I have asked few questions about how to incorporate some bodyweight lifts(not being able to go to gym atm) and about calf training in this training perception discussed in this thread and there was no answer same as the guy here few posts above asking legit question about splitting training and this was ignored but I think is interesting and it is definetly within the topic.
I understand if same questions get repeated you don’t want to waste your time and energy, but you keep answering other things not focused on the topic but on specific people (Nuchols, Israetel etc.) wheter they are ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ which actually does waste your energy and doesn’t give specific info about training to be used by interested people reading all this.
Beside Thib, you are the only coach I follow and I will continue to do so in any case-everything from your experience,knowledge and way of thinking is absolutely precious, but this is maybe the moment you give yourself some of those trully great advices you talk about outside of fitness topics on your IG and website.
I know I learned a lot from them.
Sorry for my english, I am from totally non english speaking country.
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Thank you. And that was my point.
I’m here to try and help guys get better, not spend my time arguing with people or even attacking people (ok I will make an exceptional for Nuckols from time to time). I don’t include Mike there because I like Mike as a person a lot, and consider him a friend even if we disagree a bit on some facets of training (which I think are probably far less than people imagine).
I spend a LOT of my time talking with some of the best guys in the field who specialize in their craft and want to give back to you guys with said information. But I have no desire to do back and forths with someone over and over. There’s a ton of other places on here for them to disseminate information of their own.
I spend a LOT of time in my other coaching groups with people who are doing training programs and dieting cycles so I can collect my own data, and thus extract information from what I see there.
But again, I’m not going to have pissing matches with people at all. I consistently have guys and gals producing at high levels with the information and principles I am giving you guys.
If someone doesn’t agree with what I’m saying then show the data, show the real world results, show something other than argumentative chest beating or passive aggressive chest beating about it. I hate both.
I’ll answer questions about what I know or think I know, and if I don’t know it, I’ll ask someone else that I believe does. But I’m not doing the back and forth shit with people.
As for calf training, if you’re at home that’s really simple. One legged calf work is probably one of the best overall calf movements that you can do. When I was younger I’d do a couple of hundred a day in order to work my calves and several times practically debilitated myself for a few days after doing so.
Bodyweight wise, it’s going to be the usual stuff. Push ups, dips between chairs, lunges, split squats, bodyweight squats, etc. If you have access to bands this can create a whole slew of other movements you can do.
Ok. I just hate seeing miscommunication or misunderstanding. Anyways, let it go I will.
I’m going to toss this nugget out to you guys to chew on for a bit.
One of the biggest issues I see with guys having a lack of progress, and seeing more progress by way of the inclusion of more volume is this.
When your execution is really crappy, then you’re not going to be working the tissue you’re most likely intending to work, or it’s an overall crap shoot at what is getting worked.
So when you take a guy that’s been doing low volume, and he stagnates for long periods at a time, then sudden ups the volume and sees some growth, it’s not because volume was the answer. It’s most likely because eventually that extra volume does stimulate the tissue enough so that growth happens again.
After all, there has to at least be SOME systemic effect that occurs from doing more work, right?
But that’s not ideal, and it’s certainly not optimal.
“But they get results!”
Right. But had they executed properly, they wouldn’t have to do all of that extra work, because the fact is, when you’re stimulating the tissue effectively, there shouldn’t be a need for this tremendous amount of volume to be done.
One of the reasons why I believe that Dorian had so much success with his training style was that he was big on execution, and picking movements that best fit his structure. So he didn’t need a lot of work in order to stimulate the targeted tissues to grow.
Now take someone else, who picks the wrong movements, and performs the wrong movements with crappy execution…
How much extra work are they going to have to do in order to overcome that and see results?
A metric ass load of work. Just to see minimal results. And if there’s a constant with most guys I see lifting, it’s that their execution is outright garbage. I’m not just talking about the rep speed but even movement selection. I’ll give an example.
There’s a local pro here, that has a great physique but his back sucks. Zero lat width. And he’s always posting videos of him doing back exercises trying to build his lat width. But NONE of the movements he does actually bias the lats! They all bias the upperback. 100% of them. And he’s slinging the weight around on every rep, using momentum. Well no wonder he doesn’t have any lat width. He’s never training his lats.
So for those kinds of people, the answer is…more volume, more volume, more volume…and eventually some results show up and they think “ok so volume is the answer!”
No, it’s that eventually you did do so much that there was SOME stimulation with those tissues but it was a really exhaustive way to achieve a small amount of results.
So when someone tells me that they started seeing results by doing more work, I immediately know that…
- They weren’t training very hard before that
- They weren’t picking movements that best fit their structure
- They weren’t picking movements that targeted those muscles effectively
- Their execution was most likely really crappy
- They needed a lot more volume to overcome all of these crappy variables
Now let’s reverse that…
- You train very hard
- You have chosen movements that are ideal for your structure
- You choose movements that target the musculature effectively
- Your execution is optimal and effective
If the above criteria is met, how much volume do you think you really need in a training week?
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Absolutely right with every word here!
It’s hard to chew on gold.