also on JMs programs he will often say something of this sort…“Leg curl: ramp up to a heavy 10, stay there for 2 more sets. on the last set we will go to failure then do partials out of the bottom until you cant.”
John will count this as 3 sets, but Paul might count this as 2 feeder sets and 1 real set.
paul, but you do like dorian deads for back thickness right? or do you think a row is still better than a dorian dead?
I totally agree with individuals needing to try things for themselves, but I will stress that no relatively “untrained” (or beginner) in the gym is going to be able to be so focused as to get the intensity you would need for a single set to be useful.
There’s also a huge difference between being closed minded, and having spent 26 years training, competing, earning degrees and certifications, and working with countless high level competitors and athletes. I tried and kept pretty detailed notes on more training methodologies than I can even recount. In hindsight, I look at it as completely wasted years. When I finally started piecing the puzzle together, and making connections in the industry, and I found that what I had eventually realized myself was what almost everyone was doing,… well, that’s why I’m continually dropping the #itaintrocketscience tag on IG. It’s not, and all the latest studies and arm chair experts who have never dominated onstage (some will mention doing a show waaay back when but you’ll never see a lineup pic), don’t have all of the best athletes in their “stable” because they know more than anyone else, and throw out advice with no real first hand understanding of having applied it themselves, isn’t going to change that fact.
Paul and I can disagree, I’m fine with that. I hardly know him, aside from the few weeks I’ve actually been following this thread, and a few pics from NPC news. I’m just stating my own take and trying to be respectful in doing so (and I’m pretty sure he understands that).
S
Try keeping your elbows in front of you during the entire movement. Jim Cordova pointed out this subtle trick to me long before I fully grasped lines of pull, or planes, and it really helped focus the stress directly my lats.
S
I drop the DD’s in from time to time. Dorian Deads eliminate the first half of the movement more or less, which is basically leg drive. Also stopping halfway down creates a bit of lengthening in the upperback and also causes more tension because it has to actually contract in order to stop the weight, then redirect back into the concentric. But the deadlift from the floor, even touch and go style, isn’t a great movement for back hypertrophy. It’s not that it’s useless, it’s just that it’s not optimal for that purpose at all.
The_Mighty_Stu,
Apart from from us two having a couple of degrees flying, you too seem to be pretty tall, slim bonestructured as well as ex- ectomorphic ( if that’s you in your profile),
we seem to be very open minded as well as experienced!
So, may I ask you to give me your ideas on how you got where you are today training-wise?!
Reps, sets ! Possibly workout routine?!
Did you have a look at Helmut Strebl and his workout? ( I wrote about that way back in this thread )
Regards
Yup. By all means lead the discussion. All yours my man.
LOL I don’t think these things describe Stu 
Well, he certainly ain’t an endomorph!
True, though somatotyping is kind of a myth beyond it being a general description of someone’s body. Natural bodybuilders in contest condition might look slightly slender, but Stu has posted pictures of himself looking pretty damn big, and I think he’s like 5’8 or something. I could be wrong - I’ll let him finish the discussion, not my place to answer any more questions haha
Stu’s one of my closest friends. We met in 2011. When we met, I thought to myself, “ this guy’s huge!” And he was wearing an XL shirt.
He’s 5’8” and medium framed, but with excellent genetics for strength (I mean very impressive strength) and muscle building.
I think this might be the solution:
I don’t do a lot of close grip chin ups, but when I do I have my elbows out and my shoulders internally rotated. I feel them in my pecs almost as much as my lats, like if I was doing a pullover.
This is something I used to do. I stopped trying to get my head over the bar and started trying to touch my chest to the bar. Seemed to help.
That is me in my profile pic, and while I’ve heard all sorts of terms describing how I look, I don’t think anyone ever referred to me as tall and slim bone structured -lol (I do have pretty small joints though, look at my wrists in any photo).
Aside from a pretty decent college background (I started off pre-med, and took a lot of nutrition and coaching and kiniseology classes as my electives), I was fortunate to just be pretty detail oriented when I started training. I read anything and everything, and was methodical about assessing if they were promoting the results I was after. Constantly driving to classes and seminars by both academics (CSCS courses) and in-the-trenches folks (went to countless seminars by Wnbf Pros and IFBB Pros) certainly helped, but despite keeping an open mind, I always remembered that no one reaches the pinnacle of the sport without great genetics, so take everything with a grain of salt.
Years later, I caught the attention of a couple of “Names” in the sport at the time, who allowed me to bounce ideas off of them without trying to grab my money and sell me their coaching services. The then-editor of NB&F put me in the magazine despite having never stepped onstage, but it was Cordova who actually approached me at a seminar to ask what shows I had done. Of course I didn’t think I was good enough to compete, but he, Whitacre, and even Clarida disagreed and were my sounding board. Finding out as I was prepping for my first ever contest that the top 3 guys in the Natural scene all did the same things I did is what probably gave me any confidence in what I was doing.
Eventually,… won a bunch of shows (2 pro cards, and a 2nd place at the Mr. America), started coaching NPC and Natty guys, developed enough of local following that NFL and UFC guys started contacting me, wrote some stuff for Natty Mags and Local Health and Nutrition papers, started coaching a few other coaches and Pros clients anonymously online (this is how the industry works folks! -lol)… grabbed some certificates to sound more official if anyone asked… I could go on, but I’d rather this thread not be about me.
I won’t outline a workout, because what I do works for me (either when I was competing or now that I have a few injuries to work around). Any good coach always looks at what a client is currently doing. What got them where they currently are, and hopefully can assess what’s working and what’s not.
I will throw out a few things I usually adhere to:
1- different rep ranges will yield results via different pathways (IF you understand them! High rep work works if you chase FAILURE, lower rep/heavy weight work doesn’t need to hit failure, as 3-5 reps shy yields the same results. This is all backed up by studies, it’s not me guessing). Utilize them all.
2- If you’re doing mostly lower rep sets, you can increase your number of sets so that your training volume doesn’t take a hit (This was a huge realization for me!)
3- While short rest periods can help in terms of metabolite and lactate buildup, the optimal time for heavy loads according to most reliable research and literature is 2 minutes.
4- If your diet and recovery are ON POINT, the human body can handle more than a lot of fitness authors would have you believe. That said, NO ONE wants to live in the gym, and advising a lengthy workout would turn most people off (hence everyone buying the latest “2 minute abs” e-books). Understanding this, and accepting that if I wanted to stand onstage with the top Wnbf Pros in the world I would need to invest my time, is what allowed me to progress well up to almost 40 (when shoulder surgery and my son’s birth changed my priorities).
I looked him up, and quickly recognized his photo. Interesting how he does a lot more sets for Chest (done with triceps) than Back (done with shoulders, calves, abs). Obviously he’s carved a very respectable physique from the images on the articles I’m looking at, but I wonder if the way he’s splitting his bodyparts is playing into his selection of volume per bodypart.
Of course I’m probably looking at this through what I had to figure out and adjust in my own experiences with my own physique.
S
I remember reading an article from Thib, in which he said that high rep work to failure causes the same neurological demands as max effort work. My question is, what’s the purpose of high rep work, if we can achieve the same results without the added fatigue with moderate to heavy work?
There are unique benefits and drawbacks to every rep range. Forgoing any particular range means you lose out on those benefits.
Heavy work is harder on the joints and has A higher injury potential, and as Stu said different rep ranges offer differing ways of triggering growth so it’s beneficial to hit them all for maximal results. That said, no particular range is necessary, but for maximal development you will probably need to hit them all at some point.
Can you find that article and source? I remember him citing a study that found that 30 reps to failure had the same results as 8 reps to failure. That showed that failure was a big driver of growth.
I don’t recall ever reading that high reps had the same neurological demand and impact.
Yeah no way it has the same neurological impact
I will try to find it today.
That’s why I think for most lifters “block periodization” or something like it is the best way to approach it. Forces everyone to use different ranges and imo keeps you healthier in the long run. Even CT’s “seasonal” approach works well.
I find myself loving the season approach as well. Forces you to change splits and rep/set schemes. Plus it’s fun lol.