Dave Tate…looks like someone I’d ask about building muscle.
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Scott Stevenson, who i think is a BB wizard, has implemented this in his Fortitude training. Heavy loading AND metabolic stress. 4 heavy reps alternated with 5 breaths, untill you hit a failure point or 24 reps. Its less neurally demanding than DC of 3 failure points. Your working brutally hard with a moderately heavy load taken to failure around 18-22 reps if you pick your weight right. 1-3 of these “muscle rounds” for most guys. then 1-3 loading sets later in the week, and 1-2 “pump sets” during the week. = aligns closely with Pauls “most guys need 10 sets a week”
Yes I hear you, but unlike a lot of folks on here, I’m routinely around Ifbb and WNBF pros, and have coached or worked with plenty of both and the majority don’t train low volume like you keep saying. Sure they focus on intensity, and that is key (and I agree with you completely on the importance), but there are plenty of old school experts (I’ve quoted Bill Pearl countless times on here over the years) and even recent ones who theorize that advanced trainers can actually tolerate and actually benefit from increased volume.
So you see, your anecdotal evidence completely conflicts with mine… so I’m not just disagreeing to disagree here Paul, Im just Speaking from my own experience.
S
I literally just got off the podcast with Brad Schoenfeld and he agreed, that advanced guys are going to have to trail to failure, and that the total amount of volume is going to decline in that time.
So I don’t see that, Scott doesn’t see that, and Brad doesn’t see that either.
In other words, as you get closer to that genetic ceiling, it’s effort that is going to eek out the gains. And as effort increases, volume will have to go down.
Maybe those natural guys would see more gains if they stopped trying to rely on volume and instead focused on effort and intensity.
Ahhh but you’re assuming that they’re not focusing on effort and intensity. I used to quote Mentzer all the time with his “you can train hard or you can train long but you can’t so both” and it got me pretty far, but after a considerable amount of time 10-15 years I started competing and quickly found plenty of very impressive folks were training longer, and more frequently than I was. Sure I had done well but I freely admit to others looking much more impressive.
So I stopped worrying what others would say if I took as much rest as I felt I needed between sets, or if I stayed in the gym for an hour and a half because I did “too many sets”, and I started making progress every year. We’re talking 2-3 contest conditioned lbs of muscle every successive year Already after 15 years of training and building a contest level physique (and at almost 40).
Yeah I read all the studies and books and have Brads work in my bookcase but as a competitor the best thing I ever did in terms of continually adding lbm was look at what the old school guys were doing long before the “lab coats” invaded the sport.
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And that’s a part of the process. Figuring out what works for you as an individual.
That never worked for me. So my own experimentation took me in the opposite direction. That’s again something we went over today. That you start with some guidelines and you then manipulate those guidelines based on what works best for you as in individual.
I don’t see any guys with an appreciable amount of muscle mass in the gym for hours on end. Or doing 20+ sets per bodypart with any real amount of effort.
As you get closer to that genetic ceiling you’re really going to have to give your body something it has to adapt to. And generally that’s just working harder than you previously were. Not doing more volume with a bunch of reps left in the tank. And that’s where pretty much all advanced guys arrive at by the end for a reason (needing to train really freaking hard).
@The_Mighty_Stu how many hard work sets per body part would you say you do every week? Or rather were doing when you were a competitor? How did that increase over your pre competition years?
Would someone introduce me to the term to failure. I can see how you can train to failure on cables and machines, even barbel rows. But how do you approach squats, deadlifts, bench and overhead presses?
Overhead presses just keeping going until you can’t extend.
Bench use a cage or pin setup if no spotter.
Deadlifts just put the weight down if you can’t lift it.
What’s the issue.?
To me this isn’t a sport like others, where some crinkly old coach tells you how to double up on a jab and you do it out of reverence. If some fat dude tells you how to lose weight you’re probably going to rate him as highly as a physics teacher who is a member of the flat earth society.
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Yeah, I have this conversation with my kids all the time - an English teacher that can’t spell. A History teacher with amnesia (HS doesn’t really have History teachers), a health teacher that smokes, you get it.
It’s called irony.
I have changed my training accordingly since about the time this thread started.
My observations as a 189cm, 92kg, 13% lanky ectomorph, advanced lifter are:
-Muscle increased by 1kg over 6 weeks
-recovery overall soreness dependent, pushing intensity with volume down is only possible with intensification techniques
-increased weight as progression fires inflammation/soreness deep in connective tissue levels( no joint or ligament pain)
- frequency per week needs careful attention since systemic recovery eats me up
- total change of mind
-well-being increased tremendously - sex-drive skyrocketed
Will do a hormonal check-up in Europe, turning 50 this month and am scientifically convinced: hormones are THE driver, filled by nutrition/food in second place and training in 3 place!
I can have training spot on, food perfect, still I feel some INNER driver missing for growth: my man-maker-stuff!!!
My observations from Carter‘s motivating me differently! Thanx man!!!
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The podcast is great, Paul. Really good mix of entertainment and info.
thanks man! I try to make sure it’s not just educational and dry but also entertaining as well.
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You’ve been fueling my boring cardio since I had shoulder surgery a month ago! I can’t wait to get into the new one.
Maybe he’s ok with who he is.
And that’s great.
But he needs to stay in his wheelhouse and write or talk about building strength. And not try to write or talk about dieting or building muscle. Two things he personally knows nothing about.
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So if we’re not near our genetic limit volume is better?
I don’t think any of this is different than other great athletes. The best can always go harder than any normal person can phantom. For the average person good volume will probably be their best route. That’s why most coaches push it, it’s a selling point and an income source. The outliers will end up playing by their own rules. For some it will tip toward your methods, and for others it might be as Stu said.
No, more volume isn’t always better.
That was something we went over in the podcast. It’s going to be individualist.
And Brad wholly agreed with me that people need to start on the lower end of the volume spectrum and work from there. It wouldn’t make sense to simply be doing more volume “for the sake of it”.
As far as coaches, a good coach understands the point of the needs of the individual. I don’t know any coaches, zero, who work with guys at a high level that push volume. They all push quality of volume and work. And when the work gets harder, the volume drops.
Once again, I’m not sure WHY for some of you, volume HAS to be the answer. For some it might be, for some it won’t be. The recommendation, still, is between 10-20 sets a week per muscle.
And, once again, as I talked to people who had been in the trenches a while it fell on the lower end of that range (or less) every single time. 8 sets a week for legs was about the average. An intermediate might need 10 or 12 or 15 but as he gets stronger and cultivates the ability to push harder, that number and being able to systemically recover from it, will most likely drop.
As far as high volume for naturals, that doesn’t make sense to me either. Especially when contest dieting. Cortisol is going to be higher from the lack of calories and carbs coming in, and then if he’s training high volume that is going to increase cortisol as well. This is a disaster for natural guys. Which is why Thibs also says natural guys need to stay low volume as well. But most especially when dieting.
The point in training when you’re very hypocaloric is that you have to set up the proper training so that you are giving your body a reason to keep your muscle. The best way to do that, from a very practical standpoint, is to make sure your performance can be measured and that you’re still hitting something close to your rep PRs.
You’re telling me as a natural guy that you’re going to be doing 6 sets of squats, balls out, and finding some way to maintain that level while being hypocaloric? Not gonna happen. And in that process you’ll lose muscle from too much work that isn’t conductive to muscle retention at a high level.
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Any plans to get Thibs on the pod?