And for the c-c-c-combo breaker to pull things back on track, it kinda sounds like one of the best things a beginner can do early on is to try training “too hard”, in order to figure out where the line is and what muscle failure actually is, so they can build some perspective.
I think the recent trend to prioritize joint-safe textbook form while avoiding CNS stress has made a lot of lifters shy away from pushing sets to their most productive degree.
So name calling is fine, as long as it’s warranted?
We’re big boys here, figuratively if not literally.
If you feel being told to ride someone’s disco stick is more offensive than funny, you’re in for a rough time.
Oh I am looking forward to it lol. Just making sure it was okay. I am used to forums with multiple rules.
Why don’t YOU go ride a disco stick!?
Well, this thread has taken an unexpected turn.
I can see why there is all the criticism of that article, gaining 14lbs of muscle in 14 days really does sound unbelievable. The training method sounds like it would produce results and could be particularly useful for someone stuck in a plateau, but the results that kid got really are hard to believe. Maybe he’s some sort of genetic freak, I don’t know, but it’s safe to say that at least 99% of people who use that training method aren’t going to get those results. It’s like that HMB study where the subjects got better results than they would from steroids.
Me, Paul, and a couple other guys were criticizing certain aspects of Israetel’s training methods, as well as some recent studies that he has been involved in.
Pretty sure he likes it rough anyway.
My take on the 14 pounds in 14 days, and then let’s move along, shall we?
First off I love Darden’s work. He’s a smart guy that at least consistently puts his results out there. And that’s more than I can say for basically 99% of people on the net whose only contribution is to complain and criticize about what others are putting out.
For one, I don’t know how they measured the gains in lean tissue, which are really all that matter. If they were using calipers that’s not a very exact way to judge the rate of gain. The estimates on that can be off by fairly large percentages.
When you look at studies that go out of their way to be precise about this it usually involves both biopsy and ultrasound. Generally you need to wait around 72 hours after that last training session to allow for swelling to go down to get a more accurate reading (from ultrasound).
Saying someone gained 14 pounds in 14 days isn’t the same as 14 pounds of muscle in 14 days, which is basically impossible to synthesize that much new muscle in two weeks. If they were using bodyfat readings via calipers then they could assume that was the case but it’s not accurate.
I will say this - Darden is famous for making guys eat and train really hard, and those are two things that most guys don’t do on a consistent basis which is why they don’t grow. His diet outline isn’t in the article but I can tell you from experience that it’s usually a LOT of big eating.
My belief is that most likely they used calipers which aren’t super accurate, and then made the assessment that it was 14 pounds in 14 days. The calipers wouldn’t account for any swelling from the training (depending on when measurements were done) and again, can be off by a fairly large margin and aren’t that accurate.
Let’s move along now.
I once gained 14lbs in 14 days. The culprit was a mixture of cider, pies and the West Country.
I’m 100% sure it was 14lbs of fat though.
I just wanted to comment that I have been reading a lot of old Peary Rader articles from Iron Man and such, and he always advocated for one all out set per exercise. In one article I recall that was from the 1970s he states that back in the 40s and 50s they never did multiple sets, because each set was so hard that they couldn’t imagine doing another.
I gained eleven pounds in seven days…on a cruise. Couldn’t pass up the pizza bar.
My entry to the iron game was Darden books and if I could go back in time I would because, while the one set to failure training was decent at first it burned me out. Coupled with terrible nutrition advice, I looked horrendous. One of Darden’s bulking ‘tricks’ involves mixing up creatine in copious amounts of table sugar and sipping on it all day. Otherwise, it’s bread, fruit and modest protein.
Generally speaking, intensity (effort) needs to be cycled. Just like with ALL training that is productive.
No different than even if you’re going to do volume training, you can’t train at maximal volumes all the time, you can’t train at the highest level of effort all the time.
The people who get “burnt” on training hard tend to knee jerk way too hard the other way, and then do the “4 reps in reserve” crap that does nothing to facilitate growth. Then they feel better, but after a while they realize they aren’t growing.
The smart way is to always periodize effort and intensity techniques in order to avoid emotional training burnout. This is why I tend to have break in weeks, straight set to failure weeks, some weeks of intensity increasing techniques, and then back into the break in or straight set to failure only weeks after that.
I agree with that but you will be hard-placed to find many HIT advocates like Darden, Mentzer, etc, recommending back off weeks, etc. I read several of Darden’s books and frequented his forums, where he replied to several of my queries, and the message was always the same: one set to failure.
There was a general fanaticism on that forum where anything else was simple apostacy. For example, Darden himself chipped in and said he did no warm up sets. He simply used the first few reps of his ‘all out’ set as a warm up - by doing slower reps. Anything else might be deemed the dreaded high volume training!
I recall even at 3 sessions a week on that style of training (and not making many strength gains either) coming in from the garage where I worked out and napping on the floor. Clearly, something wasn’t right.
As previously mentioned, I don’t want to digress into an Ellington Darden slagfest. I still respect the guy.
Maybe not back off weeks but I seem to remember Mentzer advocating for reducing the frequency of training of progress stalls. So training less frequently but still to failure.
That’s correct. Mentzer had some trainees working out every 7-10 days. A frequency that Darden was very critical of. In fact, Darden tells stories of Mentzer which show some mental decline over the years, e.g. when he turned up at an aged Arthur Jones’s house claiming to be his son. I think, without explicitly saying so, Darden was stating Mentzer’s programmes couldn’t be relied upon.
Nice way of saying he was mental !!
I recall Poliquin using language much more fruity to describe him!
He must have invented the ARXfit machine.
Seriously though, that sounds like terrible advice. Unless you are looking to tear something.
There’s always going to be extremes when it comes to particular ideologies. Mentzer was pretty spot on in his early days when he was learning from Jones. Then he started to get coo coo for cocoa puffs later on with the train once every 7-9 days stuff.
If you guys haven’t checked Lyle McDonald’s site he reviewed both of the Barbhalo studies.
Basically it’s like this -
Right now we’re looking at about 7/8 studies that look at the relationship of volume to muscle growth.
6 of the 7 studies show that it’s the low and moderate volumes that are the most effective.
So my question is, why are all of the “evidence based” guys saying “we need more research” when we know damn well if 6 of the 7 studies showed that the higher volumes were more effective they would be crowing it’s a slam dunk???
Not only that, why are some of you still in belief that volume is so important here? When the picture is becoming very clear that it’s not?
Why are the “evidence based” guys literally ignoring the f’n evidence???
You guys honestly need to stop following these turds, stop buying their shit, and understand that volume is not the driver, and is actually inferior to low and moderate training modalities.
That would be my thoughts. Although, perversely, Vince Gironda said something similar.