It is your contention that instances 1-6 refer only to the serpent and then 7-10 refer to Satan as well. But the text itself–this text, which is the subject of our inquiry–does not support this interpretation, a fact unchanged by anything written centuries later.
[/quote]
I can’t quite understand why you keep beating this drum. I think, and I’ve stated as much, that Satan chose this particular animal, the snake, for very good reasons and that he possessed that creature in all of Genesis 3.
[/quote]
I understand. But I’m getting the feeling we’re talking past each other. Do you agree that verse 14 was directed only at the serpent, and not at Satan?[/quote]
My first reaction is to say I agree. However, I really must reserve the right to speculate that Satan himself may have received some kind of “crawl on your belly” curse as well.
For instance, when Satan appears before God in the book of Job must he do so in some kind of prostrated position that reflects the curse of Gen 3:14? Maybe. We don’t know. But we can’t rule it out.
When he took Jesus on the mount to tempt Him was he forced to be on his belly in some shape, form or fashion? Maybe. But we can’t rule it out.
Then again maybe the belly crawl curse on Satan himself is strictly figurative somehow. I don’t know.
[/quote]
If verse 14 is addressed only to the serpent, I stand by my original contention–that to try to descry a messianic message in 3:15 is to seriously stretch. Or, rather, that of the alternative possibilities–“there is a message” and “there is not one”–the latter is correct in my view. If verse 14 is addressed to Satan as well as to the serpent, then it is the former that I find better evidenced. It all hinges on that, because there is every indication that the recipient of verse 14’s wrath is the same poor sucker as the recipient of verse 15’s, and exactly no reason to believe otherwise.
Which brings us to the question of Satan crawling. (I don’t have an answer, by the way. I’m just saying, we are arrived at that question, so far as I’m concerned.)[/quote]
How about Job 2:1-2?[/quote]
Works for me.
I suppose it could be argued that when Satan came, he came a’slithering? But, given that there is no indication of this whatsoever, I find the 3:15 stretch to be just that.
As for the notion of a figurative prostration, it seems flimsy at best.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, in Christianity the Bible must be studied holistically. That means Revelation 12:9 is to be considered:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.[/quote]
Forgive my ignorance but aren’t the fallen angels from Dante, not the NT?[/quote]
[Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:18
[i]
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.[/i]
Isaiah 14:12-15
[i]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;[/i]
Ezekiel 28:11-17
And once again:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:9[/quote]
Uhhh…
In Isaiah, it is quite clear that the prophecy is about the King of Babylon. The morning star is his poetic avatar–Astarte/Venus was the perceived deity of Babylon of that age.
[/quote]
Babylon has been associated with evil since practically the beginning (see Genesis 11) and will be in the end (see Revelation). It is natural to draw conclusions about the Isaiah 14 text that tie it to Satan.
Besides, it would’ve been a tough deal for the actual human king of Babylon to:
[i] have fallen from heaven
cast down to the earth
[say] in [his] heart,
I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.[/i]
In Christian doctrine this is understood to be text about both Satan and his protege on earth at that time, the king of Babylon.
The Old Testament is rife with symbolism, prophecies, and rituals that can only be fully explained with the New Testament. The Bible is comprised of Old and New Testament and must be studied holistically.
Same thing’s going on with the Prince of Tyre - a dual reference to a representative of Satan on the earth AND Satan.
It would be a tough deal for the actual human prince to:
[Be] seal[ed with] perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
…in Eden,
the garden of God…
…on the day you were created…
…anointed as a guardian cherub
for so [God] ordained [him].
…on the holy mount of God;
walk[ing] among the fiery stones.
blameless in [his] ways
from the day [he was] created
till wickedness was found in him.
It is fairly clear Ezekiel was referring to someone besides the prince – actually another prince – the prince of darkness.
Surely you can’t reasonably make the claim that the actual Prince of Tyre was sealed with perfection, anointed the ordained guardian cherub, blameless in all his ways at one time and then spent time in the Garden of Eden, can you?
That would surely be one them thar ligament tearing stretches, no?
[/quote]
No. Ezekial is specific about the Prince of Tyre–twice. The prophecy–as all prophecy in the latter prophets–is in verse, and the verse compares the richness of Tyre to Eden (and also takes a jaundiced view of the Aaronic priesthood, BTW, in mentioning the stones). The Prince of Tyre is being compared to Adam, and not to Satan/Lucifer.
I don’t have to impose the reading that Zeke is speaking to Satan, and to the Prince of Darnkness and not the Prince of Tyre (twice), but won’t use Satan’s name (even once), and that Satan was in Eden, but not mentioned by name or otherwise, and…and…and…
Same with Isaiah, where the word Satan does appear. If he meant Satan, he would have written Satan. He was like that, you know.
[quote]
I felt compelled to throw you the bone. 'Tsr" meant specifically an adversary in the military context, and not to a person who is the Embodiment of Evil. You are allowed to compare me to the Red Queen–a word means what it means when I say so–but that makes me neither red nor a queen.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, in Christianity the Bible must be studied holistically. That means Revelation 12:9 is to be considered:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.[/quote]
Forgive my ignorance but aren’t the fallen angels from Dante, not the NT?[/quote]
[Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:18
[i]
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.[/i]
Isaiah 14:12-15
[i]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;[/i]
Ezekiel 28:11-17
And once again:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:9[/quote]
Uhhh…
In Isaiah, it is quite clear that the prophecy is about the King of Babylon. The morning star is his poetic avatar–Astarte/Venus was the perceived deity of Babylon of that age.
From Ezekial it is explicitly stated that the prophecy is against the Prince of Tyre (and later, a gratuitous side swipe against Sidon.)
These verses–beautiful or frightful as they may be–have nothing do to with Satan or fallen angels. When the prophet names his object, that is the object, bend the text as you may.
(But parenthetically, I notice the 2 spellings for Tyre: tsr and tswr. The common noun tsr is translated in context elsewhere in Isaiah as “adversary,” and “tswr” is sometimes an adjective meaning “strong” or “secure,” like a fortress. And the word for prince, “nagid,” has a root similar to the word for “opponent.” And none of them mean Satan.)[/quote]
Wasn’t the destruction of Tyre prophesied by Ezekiel fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar AND Alexander ?
No. Ezekial is specific about the Prince of Tyre–twice. The prophecy–as all prophecy in the latter prophets–is in verse, and the verse compares the richness of Tyre to Eden (and also takes a jaundiced view of the Aaronic priesthood, BTW, in mentioning the stones). The Prince of Tyre is being compared to Adam, and not to Satan/Lucifer.
I don’t have to impose the reading that Zeke is speaking to Satan, and to the Prince of Darnkness and not the Prince of Tyre (twice), but won’t use Satan’s name (even once), and that Satan was in Eden, but not mentioned by name or otherwise, and…and…and…
[/quote]
Can’t buy that.
First of all you claim only the Prince of Tyre is being referenced. Then you apparently change your mind and claim Adam too is part of the equation. You can’t have it both ways by your own reasoning.
Secondly, Adam could not have:
Been anointed as a guardian cherub
on the holy mount of God
walking among the fiery stones
Cherubs are angels – heavenly servants and messengers.
The holy mount of God most likely refers to heaven.
Fiery stones and all the jewels also mentioned as adornment in the Ezekiel text are not Edenic.
…[/quote]
You can do better than this.
I wrote “compared to.” Adam was driven from his Eden because of disobedience; the Prince of Tyre will be driven from his Eden, too.
With regard to the stone business: remember Ezekial is from Anathoth, a rival tribe of priests. That is why I offer that his comment is a “side-swipe” to the priests of Jerusalem; i.e., the stones are not a reference to Eden, but maybe they are a reminder of the ephod of the Jerusalem priests. Maybe.
Was the Prince of Tyre an ally–a mighty guardian, like a cherub–who betrayed the Northern Kingdom?..I honestly can’t remember. But I suppose it is easy and much more convenient to find Satan in every corner of the text when bad things happen.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, in Christianity the Bible must be studied holistically. That means Revelation 12:9 is to be considered:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.[/quote]
Forgive my ignorance but aren’t the fallen angels from Dante, not the NT?[/quote]
[Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:18
[i]
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.[/i]
Isaiah 14:12-15
[i]This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;[/i]
Ezekiel 28:11-17
And once again:
The great dragon was hurled down – that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:9[/quote]
Uhhh…
In Isaiah, it is quite clear that the prophecy is about the King of Babylon. The morning star is his poetic avatar–Astarte/Venus was the perceived deity of Babylon of that age.
From Ezekial it is explicitly stated that the prophecy is against the Prince of Tyre (and later, a gratuitous side swipe against Sidon.)
These verses–beautiful or frightful as they may be–have nothing do to with Satan or fallen angels. When the prophet names his object, that is the object, bend the text as you may.
(But parenthetically, I notice the 2 spellings for Tyre: tsr and tswr. The common noun tsr is translated in context elsewhere in Isaiah as “adversary,” and “tswr” is sometimes an adjective meaning “strong” or “secure,” like a fortress. And the word for prince, “nagid,” has a root similar to the word for “opponent.” And none of them mean Satan.)[/quote]
Wasn’t the destruction of Tyre prophesied by Ezekiel fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar AND Alexander ?
[/quote]
Good call.
Of course one reason may be that that inclusion in AAmos was written shortly after the event.
Just as push’s long quote from the NT was written long after (500+ years) the passage in Ezekial, and no doubt it was written in Greek nearly identical to the Septuagint translation. What a coincidence!
No. Ezekial is specific about the Prince of Tyre–twice. The prophecy–as all prophecy in the latter prophets–is in verse, and the verse compares the richness of Tyre to Eden (and also takes a jaundiced view of the Aaronic priesthood, BTW, in mentioning the stones). The Prince of Tyre is being compared to Adam, and not to Satan/Lucifer.
I don’t have to impose the reading that Zeke is speaking to Satan, and to the Prince of Darnkness and not the Prince of Tyre (twice), but won’t use Satan’s name (even once), and that Satan was in Eden, but not mentioned by name or otherwise, and…and…and…
[/quote]
Can’t buy that.
First of all you claim only the Prince of Tyre is being referenced. Then you apparently change your mind and claim Adam too is part of the equation. You can’t have it both ways by your own reasoning.
Secondly, Adam could not have:
Been anointed as a guardian cherub
on the holy mount of God
walking among the fiery stones
Cherubs are angels – heavenly servants and messengers.
The holy mount of God most likely refers to heaven.
Fiery stones and all the jewels also mentioned as adornment in the Ezekiel text are not Edenic.
…[/quote]
You can do better than this.
[/quote]
I agree. I did this with one arm tied behind my back, a chihuahua nipping at my heels and my balls in a vise with some Black Sabbath playing on my Ipod. Just to make things fair.
Huh? Whatever happened to, “It means what it says!”?[/quote]
My speculations are signaled in advance. And open to refutation.
In the case of Tyre, it must have done something, some act of betrayal to earn the opprobrium of Isaiah (Chap 23), Ezekial (26, 27, 28, 29), Zechariah (9) and Jeremiah (47). These are the contemporary “prophecies,” and point to a political event, an event for which I have no precise history. Are we to read that each of these citations are intended as metonyms for Satan? No. I think they mean what they say, i.e., Tyre is a city-state and not a Demon, but we don’t have all the history which brought God’s sanction.
(In various parts of Kings, the surrounding kingdoms conspire or ally themselves with great powers–Egypt or Aram or Babylon–against the Northern or Southern Kingdoms. Were the prophets railing agains the Prince of Tyre, as they did against Sidon, Edom, Ashkelon, etc.? Will research.)
Although Nebuchadnezzar besieged Tyre(for 13 years) there is no evidence that they surrendered. I think it more likely that it was the Macedonian army 250 years later that Ezekiel prophesied.
Tyre was of course two cities; the defensive one being an island with 46 meter high walls. When an enemy besieged Tyre the mainland settlement was used to build siege ramps and the mainland inhabitants fled to the island. With a plethora of ‘colonies’ stretching across the Mediterranean to Spain, Tyre’s seafarers had no concerns of being starved out. It was very likely the best defensive city of the ancient world.
Alexander had to fell an entire forest of cypress and cedar and use all the rubble from the mainland settlement to build his bridge to the island. There is nothing on this scale recorded or in archeological evidence to support the Babylonians attempting anything of this order.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Although Nebuchadnezzar besieged Tyre(for 13 years) there is no evidence that they surrendered. I think it more likely that it was the Macedonian army 250 years later that Ezekiel prophesied.
Tyre was of course two cities; the defensive one being an island with 46 meter high walls. When an enemy besieged Tyre the mainland settlement was used to build siege ramps and the mainland inhabitants fled to the island. With a plethora of ‘colonies’ stretching across the Mediterranean to Spain, Tyre’s seafarers had no concerns of being starved out. It was very likely the best defensive city of the ancient world.
Alexander had to fell an entire forest of cypress and cedar and use all the rubble from the mainland settlement to build his bridge to the island. There is nothing on this scale recorded or in archeological evidence to support the Babylonians attempting anything of this order.[/quote]
This is so.
Isaiah, Zechariah and Amos describe in detail a fiery end to Tyre; recall that the siege of Tyre was simultaneous with the fall of Jerusalem in 586-7 BCE.
(Some other scholar would have access to the histories of Nebuchadnezzar and Phoenecian Tyre. I don’t. But there are hints that the prophets knew their geography. See in particular Isaiah 23, describing the commercial dependency of Tyre on its colonies; there is also a reference I can’t find to Tyre being reduced again to a smooth stone, the island on which it stood. Also see Zech 9:3-4, which includes both the common pun–[/i]tsor matsor[/i], “Tyre has made a fortification of itself,”–and the prediction of a fiery end.}
Alexander’s siege is well documented.
Well, that was a long digression. Never got around to your Messiah question, perhaps since, as Milton observed, Satan made more interesting literature?
Yes, Hiram King of Tyre sent cedar and skilled stonemasons to build David’s house. David also used cedar from the Tyreans and Sidonians for the rebuilding of the temple - 1 Chr 22:4. Hiram also floated cedar down to Joppa for Solomon’s palace - 1 Kgs 5:8-11
Although the Lebanese coastline is referred to as Phoenecia, both Tyre and Sidon were Canaanite settlements. In fact Sidon was named after the firstborn son of Canaan(son of Ham). Tyre gets its name from the Greek for purple(porphyra) the royal purple dye of the murex shell being their largest trade.
Joshua considered Sidon part of the promised land and whilst not conquered it was allotted to the tribe of Asher.
But I still don’t get if Satan walked before the fall?
