[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
How dare you say we are not all equal?
[/quote]
I really feel like this is becoming quite an issue…
The underlying pea under the mattress if you will, that is keeping the “class warfare” flames fanned.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
deep down you understand[/quote]
Beans, I think you’re wrong here.[/quote]
Nah, Pitt is certainly center/left without question, however I think he plays it up around here to spark interest and ruffle feathers. Trying to be the “voice of reason” or so it would seem.
I would gamble that on a macro level, he and I agree on more than it appears here, we just disagree on how to get there, a lot. [/quote]
I would say that is a a reasonably fair analysis , not perfect , I would probably totally agree we agree on more than most would think
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Nah, Pitt is certainly center/left without question, however I think he plays it up around here to spark interest and ruffle feathers. Trying to be the “voice of reason” or so it would seem.
I would gamble that on a macro level, he and I agree on more than it appears here, we just disagree on how to get there, a lot. [/quote]
Most everyone agrees on a macro-level; the way he wants to get there shows the level of his lack of understanding. I probably agree with him on at least 75%(a conservative estimate) of issues, but the 25% we disagree on makes the other 75% impossible.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Nah, Pitt is certainly center/left without question, however I think he plays it up around here to spark interest and ruffle feathers. Trying to be the “voice of reason” or so it would seem.
I would gamble that on a macro level, he and I agree on more than it appears here, we just disagree on how to get there, a lot. [/quote]
Most everyone agrees on a macro-level; the way he wants to get there shows the level of his lack of understanding. I probably agree with him on at least 75%(a conservative estimate) of issues, but the 25% we disagree on makes the other 75% impossible.[/quote]
But see in reality you would have no say because I would have conquered you and you would be lucky oif you were not in my prison 
I think the issue is the definition of “poor”. Our “poor” people, as has been pointed out earlier, shit in water cleaner than most of the world drinks from. EVERYONE is not “entitled” to and iPhone. Or a car. or easy, convenient food. Or a nice house in the 'berbs. But that’s what the liberal MEDIA is selling. My point is this: ANYONE can attain a level of income to have all of those things. But EVERYONE simply will not make the choice to work hard enough to get the skills to get the job to EARN that income.
Why? Because people are stupid, lazy and ignorant. Because our public education system continues to lower the bar to cover up the piss poor performance of it’s teachers who only have a job because of misguided Unions.
Businesses shouldn’t have to bear the brunt of society’s general laziness.
When I started working back in '87, I made $3.85 an hour. When I was FOURTEEN! Why can’t a fucking ADULT aspire to a greater skill set than making fucking pizza? That isn’t a BUSINESS’S fault!
When I began working as an adult (fresh out of prison) I did not have a car OR a cell phone. I took the bus to work and saw my parole officer on my lunch hour (and got docked the time I missed). I started off landscaping, then painting, then carpentry, then an electrician’s helper and then FINALLY after applying three times got into the apprenticeship, got my Journeyman card and was able to command a higher wage.
I could have been happy with that. But I saved my money, made a few smart investments and explored a few other income vehicles as well. I am a felon without a high school diploma. All I had were my wits, my hands and my back. So please tell me why, in a world where there are programs that will GIVE YOU MONEY to go to school or learn a trade for FREE, are there people who just want to sit on their ass and do nothing with their life and get paid?
To work on a construction job even as a laborer, all you really have to do is SHOW UP ON TIME. That’s it! That’s NINETY NINE PERCENT of the job right there: Show up on time, every day and do what you are told… Why can’t people do that? Is that too much for a business to expect? Should they NOT be fired when they are caught hiding in the corner texting on their cellphone? People talk about immigration being a problem, I see it just the opposite. I’ll take crew of immigrants - doesn’t matter where they are from, I’ve worked with them all, and get TWICE the production out of them as a crew of American laborers. Why? Because no one wants to work hard. They want it easy. In short, they are lazy pieces of shit. They feel ENTITLED to the American dream because no one told them they had to WORK for it.
Why should businesses be forced to pay for their ignorance and laziness? That translates directly into higher costs for ALL consumers, so we not only get fucked by the government with more taxes to support these lazy fuckers, we get fucked at the checkout line with increased cost of goods and services. Fuck that shit. I say open the door to immigrant labor - at least they will show up everyday and work hard.
I went from making $3.85 to $48.95… I learned a skill and am able to deliver a value that not many people can. There is a HUGE shortage of skilled labor right now. With all of the infrastructure of the US crumbling (sometimes literally) there will continue to be a huge demand. So why are we talking about minimum wage? We should be funneling people to THOSE kinds of jobs, not paying for their college degrees that will be worthless in 4 years. Let the teenagers flip the burgers and get the adults to WORK at a REAL job where they are actually PRODUCING something.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the issue is the definition of “poor”. Our “poor” people, as has been pointed out earlier, shit in water cleaner than most of the world drinks from. EVERYONE is not “entitled” to and iPhone. Or a car. or easy, convenient food. Or a nice house in the 'berbs. But that’s what the liberal MEDIA is selling. My point is this: ANYONE can attain a level of income to have all of those things. But EVERYONE simply will not make the choice to work hard enough to get the skills to get the job to EARN that income.
Why? Because people are stupid, lazy and ignorant. Because our public education system continues to lower the bar to cover up the piss poor performance of it’s teachers who only have a job because of misguided Unions.
[/quote]
Wrong. The govt will give people just enough to not go out and kill for it because it’s easier than actually trying to level the playing field. People in the inner cities, for example, who live off the govt are not all lazy but rather they have simply been pacified and duped into accepting whatever the govt gives them.
Teachers are not underperforming, that’s a myth. If you look at schools that are failing they are in communities that are failing. But rather than point the finger at families and communities the weakest link in the chain, teachers, carry the burden for the problems. Yes, bad teachers are the reason why teens get pregnant, kids do and sell drugs, join gangs and murder, and parents are not parenting.
Teachers unions actually try and maintain the standards to become a teacher and we are seeing what the demise of unions and teaching as a profession has in store. Schools are now hiring kids straight out of college, with no teaching experience or training, to teach. Just look up Teach for America. These kids “teach” for a couple of years and then leave for something like grad school. It’s a way to undermine unions and destroy teaching as a profession so that there is one less voice when it comes to education. Common core, TFA, etc., are only going to make things worse.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Teachers are not underperforming, that’s a myth. If you look at schools that are failing they are in communities that are failing. But rather than point the finger at families and communities the weakest link in the chain, teachers, carry the burden for the problems. Yes, bad teachers are the reason why teens get pregnant, kids do and sell drugs, join gangs and murder, and parents are not parenting.
[/quote]
The government must push that the problems are due to teachers, because if it doesn’t, then the lie that we need public education will be obvious. If public education can’t overcome bad families and communities, then there’s no reason to force people to pay for it.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Teachers are not underperforming, that’s a myth. If you look at schools that are failing they are in communities that are failing. But rather than point the finger at families and communities the weakest link in the chain, teachers, carry the burden for the problems. Yes, bad teachers are the reason why teens get pregnant, kids do and sell drugs, join gangs and murder, and parents are not parenting.
[/quote]
The government must push that the problems are due to teachers, because if it doesn’t, then the lie that we need public education will be obvious. If public education can’t overcome bad families and communities, then there’s no reason to force people to pay for it.[/quote]
The govt is pushing it because corporations like Microsoft want to take over education. Teachers unions are against the corporate model when it comes to education. That’s why they blame teachers for things outside of their control.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the issue is the definition of “poor”. Our “poor” people, as has been pointed out earlier, shit in water cleaner than most of the world drinks from. EVERYONE is not “entitled” to and iPhone. Or a car. or easy, convenient food. Or a nice house in the 'berbs. But that’s what the liberal MEDIA is selling. My point is this: ANYONE can attain a level of income to have all of those things. But EVERYONE simply will not make the choice to work hard enough to get the skills to get the job to EARN that income.
Why? Because people are stupid, lazy and ignorant. Because our public education system continues to lower the bar to cover up the piss poor performance of it’s teachers who only have a job because of misguided Unions.
[/quote]
Wrong. The govt will give people just enough to not go out and kill for it because it’s easier than actually trying to level the playing field. People in the inner cities, for example, who live off the govt are not all lazy but rather they have simply been pacified and duped into accepting whatever the govt gives them.
Teachers are not underperforming, that’s a myth. If you look at schools that are failing they are in communities that are failing. But rather than point the finger at families and communities the weakest link in the chain, teachers, carry the burden for the problems. Yes, bad teachers are the reason why teens get pregnant, kids do and sell drugs, join gangs and murder, and parents are not parenting.[/quote]
It’s quite simple, good parents are going to have kids who perform well in school (on the whole). Poor parents are going to have kids who do not (again on the whole). Exceptions will exist, but parenting is MUCH more important than anyone ever recognizes.
I’m a consultant for area schools and blaming the problems on teachers or the teachers unions (and I’m not a big union guy) is about as lazy and stupid as it gets. I think most people who come up with that shit have no idea about the “product” that teachers get in poor performing schools. And they have probably spent 0 time in public education classrooms since they graduated and are getting their information from some biased news sources.
Teachers in 2014 are probably BETTER than at any other time in American history. They have far more tools at their disposal, far more resources and training, etc. If you’re blaming a teacher for the crap performance of a kid with parents who don’t give a fuck then you have no room to talk about public education. Couple that with comparing American public schools where we teach everyone compared to some countries best and brightest is not even close to apples to apples.
[quote]H factor wrote:
Couple that with comparing American public schools where we teach everyone compared to some countries best and brightest is not even close to apples to apples.
[/quote]
This is a very interesting point and is part of a larger problem with the American work force (as seen from an outsider).
The model is for everyone to “graduate” and geared for them go to college.
And trades (like, say Angry Chicken’s electrician trade) are treated with little respect in school.
Well, this is wrong.
College is for a small part of people. There are only so many people qualified for a real, rigorous, college education.
And there is a serious lack of people in trades. Coupled with really stupid regulations, this is why manufacturing jobs go elsewhere. And why you can’t find a plumber in NYC who is remotely competent, so I end up doing shit myself — even when I am willing to pay through the nose just for someone who will do what they fucking say and actually know how to do what they are about to do.
Most countries have several tracks, where students are pealed off to other pursuits where they are better suited.
For some reason, in the USA, this is considered a bad thing and “unfair.”
No, “unfair” is putting a natural mechanic in a classroom reading Shakespeare he could give a flying fuck about, instead of a training program that played to his strengths.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
Couple that with comparing American public schools where we teach everyone compared to some countries best and brightest is not even close to apples to apples.
[/quote]
This is a very interesting point and is part of a larger problem with the American work force (as seen from an outsider).
The model is for everyone to “graduate” and geared for them go to college.
And trades (like, say Angry Chicken’s electrician trade) are treated with little respect in school.
Well, this is wrong.
College is for a small part of people. There are only so many people qualified for a real, rigorous, college education.
And there is a serious lack of people in trades. Coupled with really stupid regulations, this is why manufacturing jobs go elsewhere. And why you can’t find a plumber in NYC who is remotely competent, so I end up doing shit myself — even when I am willing to pay through the nose just for someone who will do what they fucking say and actually know how to do what they are about to do.
Most countries have several tracks, where students are pealed off to other pursuits where they are better suited.
For some reason, in the USA, this is considered a bad thing and “unfair.”
No, “unfair” is putting a natural mechanic in a classroom reading Shakespeare he could give a flying fuck about, instead of a training program that played to his strengths.
[/quote]
I agree that college is pushed or expected from too many kids. This is not a teacher problem though, many teachers are the ones trying to give kids realistic expectations.
Most parents anymore assume their child can and should graduate from college whether or not they are a good student.
You can blame many for profit colleges for pushing hard that anyone can afford to attend college and graduate from college as well (not that they are the only culprits in the game).
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Just look up Teach for America. These kids “teach” for a couple of years and then leave for something like grad school. [/quote]
The best teachers I taught with were the Teach for America kids. It wasn’t even close. They have more passion and dedication (yes, while they are there) than the 20 year teacher who is just teaching for June, July, and August.
These schools ( http://www.ideapublicschools.org/site/default.aspx?PageID=1 ) were started by a couple of Teach for America kids. We started with less than 200 students in 2000 and now they reach 1000s upon 1000s of kids. This was on the border, with 90% children of migrant farm workers. Most lived in small cinderblock houses in colonias that they were building one room at a time. Every single one of the students who have graduated from their schools have been accepted into four year colleges.
You can divert blame from “normal” teachers all you want, but blaming Teach for America is just pathetic.
[quote]doogie wrote:
This was on the border, with 90% children of migrant farm workers. Most lived in small cinderblock houses in colonias that they were building one room at a time. [/quote]
What is the family dynamic of these kids? Is their culture one of strong family bonds and respect?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
Couple that with comparing American public schools where we teach everyone compared to some countries best and brightest is not even close to apples to apples.
[/quote]
No, “unfair” is putting a natural mechanic in a classroom reading Shakespeare he could give a flying fuck about, instead of a training program that played to his strengths.
[/quote]
hmmm…
I know that when I was in high school all the slackers who didn’t want to try wen tot vocational school.
Now, at least in my area, the Vocational schools are hard to get into, wait lists, and the kids who don’t try, are forced to go to public “regular” high school.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]doogie wrote:
This was on the border, with 90% children of migrant farm workers. Most lived in small cinderblock houses in colonias that they were building one room at a time. [/quote]
What is the family dynamic of these kids? Is their culture one of strong family bonds and respect?[/quote]
It varied a lot. Probably stronger than in other poor areas. It was hard to get them to see their future beyond dropping out at 16 to pick onions. It was also hard to get them to understand that their daughters could be doctors. They didn’t have to find a husband at 17 and have kids. Girls were constantly absent because they had to do this or that for the family. Boys not nearly as much.
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Just look up Teach for America. These kids “teach” for a couple of years and then leave for something like grad school. [/quote]
The best teachers I taught with were the Teach for America kids. It wasn’t even close. They have more passion and dedication (yes, while they are there) than the 20 year teacher who is just teaching for June, July, and August.
These schools ( http://www.ideapublicschools.org/site/default.aspx?PageID=1 ) were started by a couple of Teach for America kids. We started with less than 200 students in 2000 and now they reach 1000s upon 1000s of kids. This was on the border, with 90% children of migrant farm workers. Most lived in small cinderblock houses in colonias that they were building one room at a time. Every single one of the students who have graduated from their schools have been accepted into four year colleges.
You can divert blame from “normal” teachers all you want, but blaming Teach for America is just pathetic.[/quote]
TFA is a corporation that costs schools more than hiring actual certified teachers. TFA operates like a pyramid scheme: you “teach” for a couple of years and then you become a principal of some charter school. TFA “teachers” don’t really teach but rather they do test prep. Maybe among the lot there are some who are competent but they are the minority. How much money does TFA get from a school per teacher, per year, they furnish? And it’s easy to show passion and dedication when it’s a temporary gig that promises to pay more once you move on to running your own school. TFA won’t even accept a “teacher” who says they want to pursue teaching as a career.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
TFA is a corporation that costs schools more than hiring actual certified teachers. [/quote]
With better results.
Schools like the one I linked to, KIPP academies, YES College Prep. There is a reason these schools have parents signing up for lotteries in the hopes of getting their kids enrolled.
[quote]
TFA “teachers” don’t really teach but rather they do test prep.[/quote]
Just because their students do better than yours, it doesn’t mean all they do is test prep. I had to spend 15 extra hours week at my school outside of class helping my math students learn English comprehension enough to be able to even understand the math questions that are on the standardized tests. You know who stayed and helped teach those kids with me? A TFA science teacher and a TFA social studies teacher. It sure as hell wasn’t the “normal” teachers.
[quote]
Maybe among the lot there are some who are competent but they are the minority.[/quote]
If they are incompetent, why do they achieve better results?
[quote]
How much money does TFA get from a school per teacher, per year, they furnish? [/quote]
A few thousand dollars. Much better than paying some tenured hack who checked out 14 years earlier, but still hangs around the classroom collecting a check.
No argument there. They are more passionate and dedicated while they are there than “normal” teachers are. What is wrong with that model?
[quote]
TFA won’t even accept a “teacher” who says they want to pursue teaching as a career. [/quote]
They want their teachers to grow, start better schools with better standards and better results. Sounds like a plot.
Look, I have no dog in the fight. My dad was a normal math teacher/coach. I no longer teach. I was never in TFA. They wouldn’t have accepted someone like me, anyway. However, I know what I saw year after year working with those young adults. I’d love it if all of my 14 year old son’s teachers were in TFA.
The results will become apparent when the kids get to college and have to start thinking critically. Why is it TFA and the common core are becoming a package deal?
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the issue is the definition of “poor”. Our “poor” people, as has been pointed out earlier, shit in water cleaner than most of the world drinks from. EVERYONE is not “entitled” to and iPhone. Or a car. or easy, convenient food. Or a nice house in the 'berbs. But that’s what the liberal MEDIA is selling. My point is this: ANYONE can attain a level of income to have all of those things. But EVERYONE simply will not make the choice to work hard enough to get the skills to get the job to EARN that income.
Why? Because people are stupid, lazy and ignorant. Because our public education system continues to lower the bar to cover up the piss poor performance of it’s teachers who only have a job because of misguided Unions.
[/quote]
Wrong. The govt will give people just enough to not go out and kill for it because it’s easier than actually trying to level the playing field. People in the inner cities, for example, who live off the govt are not all lazy but rather they have simply been pacified and duped into accepting whatever the govt gives them.
Teachers are not underperforming, that’s a myth. If you look at schools that are failing they are in communities that are failing. But rather than point the finger at families and communities the weakest link in the chain, teachers, carry the burden for the problems. Yes, bad teachers are the reason why teens get pregnant, kids do and sell drugs, join gangs and murder, and parents are not parenting.[/quote]
It’s quite simple, good parents are going to have kids who perform well in school (on the whole). Poor parents are going to have kids who do not (again on the whole). Exceptions will exist, but parenting is MUCH more important than anyone ever recognizes.
I’m a consultant for area schools and blaming the problems on teachers or the teachers unions (and I’m not a big union guy) is about as lazy and stupid as it gets. I think most people who come up with that shit have no idea about the “product” that teachers get in poor performing schools. And they have probably spent 0 time in public education classrooms since they graduated and are getting their information from some biased news sources.
Teachers in 2014 are probably BETTER than at any other time in American history. They have far more tools at their disposal, far more resources and training, etc. If you’re blaming a teacher for the crap performance of a kid with parents who don’t give a fuck then you have no room to talk about public education. Couple that with comparing American public schools where we teach everyone compared to some countries best and brightest is not even close to apples to apples.
[/quote]
And THIS is a prime example of why some PWI posters annoy the shit out of me. You take ONE sentence. ONE FUCKING SENTENCE among paragraphs of other points and arguments and argue against that tiny little point. And THEN, other posters come along and call me lazy and stupid for blaming the teachers and the teachers unions. I believe the bulk of my position (the position I wrote paragraphs about) was that most AMERICANS (i.e. the PARENTS that YOU CLAIM to be the issue) are fucking lazy, ignorant and stupid. HENCE THEIR STUPID OFFSPRING who can’t perform in school!
And I know a thing or two about teachers. If you don’t think they are a part of the problem, you haven’t had much one on one experience. I have two kids, and I’ve been dealing with idiot teachers every grade for eleven years now. Private school and public school; in MD and in VA. There are bad teachers EVERYWHERE that are protected by an administration of incompetence completely lacking in common sense. Despite this, my eldest son is an honor role student - because I taught him how to play the stupid, liberal game: cater to their ego, make sure they “like” you, be seen helping other kids, don’t get caught doing dumb shit, etc… Once the teacher “likes” a student, they will do just about anything to make sure he succeeds. It’s about developing a rapport, making them feel superior and jumping through their stupid hoops, not getting an education.
My mother was a teacher. My brother IS a teacher. Both taught/teach relatively useless subjects (not math, science, history or english). I grew up with plenty of exposure to that stupid liberal mindset of what they feel they DESERVE (and the insecurity that kept them in a classroom instead of the real world). My brother went to school for 14 years and has a PhD. It EATS him and his wife alive that I earn in three months what he makes in a year. Don’t get me wrong - he’s happy for me. But he doesn’t think I “deserve” it…
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the issue is the definition of “poor”. Our “poor” people, as has been pointed out earlier, shit in water cleaner than most of the world drinks from. EVERYONE is not “entitled” to and iPhone. Or a car. or easy, convenient food. Or a nice house in the 'berbs. But that’s what the liberal MEDIA is selling. My point is this: ANYONE can attain a level of income to have all of those things. But EVERYONE simply will not make the choice to work hard enough to get the skills to get the job to EARN that income.
Why? Because people are stupid, lazy and ignorant. Because our public education system continues to lower the bar to cover up the piss poor performance of it’s teachers who only have a job because of misguided Unions.
Businesses shouldn’t have to bear the brunt of society’s general laziness.
When I started working back in '87, I made $3.85 an hour. When I was FOURTEEN! Why can’t a fucking ADULT aspire to a greater skill set than making fucking pizza? That isn’t a BUSINESS’S fault!
When I began working as an adult (fresh out of prison) I did not have a car OR a cell phone. I took the bus to work and saw my parole officer on my lunch hour (and got docked the time I missed). I started off landscaping, then painting, then carpentry, then an electrician’s helper and then FINALLY after applying three times got into the apprenticeship, got my Journeyman card and was able to command a higher wage.
I could have been happy with that. But I saved my money, made a few smart investments and explored a few other income vehicles as well. I am a felon without a high school diploma. All I had were my wits, my hands and my back. So please tell me why, in a world where there are programs that will GIVE YOU MONEY to go to school or learn a trade for FREE, are there people who just want to sit on their ass and do nothing with their life and get paid?
To work on a construction job even as a laborer, all you really have to do is SHOW UP ON TIME. That’s it! That’s NINETY NINE PERCENT of the job right there: Show up on time, every day and do what you are told… Why can’t people do that? Is that too much for a business to expect? Should they NOT be fired when they are caught hiding in the corner texting on their cellphone? People talk about immigration being a problem, I see it just the opposite. I’ll take crew of immigrants - doesn’t matter where they are from, I’ve worked with them all, and get TWICE the production out of them as a crew of American laborers. Why? Because no one wants to work hard. They want it easy. In short, they are lazy pieces of shit. They feel ENTITLED to the American dream because no one told them they had to WORK for it.
Why should businesses be forced to pay for their ignorance and laziness? That translates directly into higher costs for ALL consumers, so we not only get fucked by the government with more taxes to support these lazy fuckers, we get fucked at the checkout line with increased cost of goods and services. Fuck that shit. I say open the door to immigrant labor - at least they will show up everyday and work hard.
I went from making $3.85 to $48.95… I learned a skill and am able to deliver a value that not many people can. There is a HUGE shortage of skilled labor right now. With all of the infrastructure of the US crumbling (sometimes literally) there will continue to be a huge demand. So why are we talking about minimum wage? We should be funneling people to THOSE kinds of jobs, not paying for their college degrees that will be worthless in 4 years. Let the teenagers flip the burgers and get the adults to WORK at a REAL job where they are actually PRODUCING something.[/quote]
America has a great safety net but you need to come to Phoenix and see the homeless . I know a lot of the South West has this problem
Beans wants you to think there is no class war , it is real and it was started from above