Push for Higher Minimum Wage

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The McDonald’s problem is easily fixed: raise wages but don’t worry about shareholders because you then allow people to use their EBT cards there which will probably more than make up the difference. [/quote]

I thought the point of raising the minimum was to reduce the # of people using EBT cards?[/quote]
It’s about keeping those people on welfare and foodstamps while giving them a little bit more pocket money to spend on a “better” cell phone or tablet or at McDonald’s (you don’t have to stick to the dollar menu) so that the working poor think you actually care about them but stay working poor. Sometimes things have to change in order to keep them the same.

I know you were joking with your post but seriously, it’s all a ruse to avoid asking the real question, a question which has already been asked here and I’m sure in a lot of different places, and that question is how did we get to the point that entry level jobs or jobs that were considered part-time work for kids/students or people with a regular job but wanted to make a little extra cash or mothers (OK, fathers too) who stayed home with the kids but now the kids are in school so they work a few hours during the school day are now considered careers?

I get that people working some of these jobs work hard and believe they deserve something to show for it and they are right in the sense that based on effort and commitment they should be earning more. It’s just that rather than seek to get more from where they currently work (and what is a dollar or two more anyway) they should look for another job that will pay them more for the same amount of effort. I know that it isn’t that simple to do and there are reasons why adults can find themselves in certain circumstances, I won’t judge them, but if I were in that position I would rather hear Obama say he is going to do something that will help me get out of my present situation and into a better one, provided I am willing to take advantage of the opportunity. If you are working poor then the raise in min wage won’t change that.

But having said that, the biggest problem is that people have been conditioned to be complacent and accept whatever circumstances they find themselves in as normal, as destiny. Raising min wage is like paying them some hush money. They will have more money to spend on crap, which makes those who sell crap happy, and they will continue with their illusion of being happy and satisfied because they believe that that crap is what life is all about. I saw a commercial for a cell phone family plan that was “only” 160 dollars a month. If you make min wage that bill could be half a weekly paycheck, or more. Too many people see these jobs as a final destination and not a starting point to something better. The truth is that if you envision yourself working flipping burgers for 30 years or more then you should accept that you will not have certain things and live accordingly. [/quote]

I agree with you here.

342

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
BTW, it’s much cheaper to make your own coffee you damn aristocrats. [/quote]

Ain’t that the truth!

343

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
BTW, it’s much cheaper to make your own coffee you damn aristocrats. [/quote]

haha.

Good post above too.

You’re right. Raising the wage does nothing to solve the actual problem.

344

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see many father’s of three who work 40+ hours lining up to pour coffee three nights a week. And if they did I imagine they’re going to be worth more than $10/hr.

That’s all I’m saying. [/quote]

What about stocking shelves at the market, or local liquor store? Home Depot doesn’t hire kids very often…

I’ve actually seen quite a few people sign up for that $100-200. Shit half the staff at my college job was doing that if not more. They made more than $10 eventually, but were hands down better employees than the 18 year olds they brought in. So they made it worth the $ to keep them around.

What I’m getting at is a time scale situation, and it seems like you think this will happen the day after the law passes (which it will.)

Part-time shifts start looking a lot better when they start at $10, and you can move up, than start at $7.

345

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Actually, if you are making $4.25/hour as a tip earner, if your tips + wages does not equal federal minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference.

And let’s be honest here, tip earners rarely actually report the amount of tips they get. Most of the time, I see people only claiming 8-10% of sales as practice.
[/quote]

Unless they have been very recent changes that I’m unaware of…
Where I live the base rate for wait-staff is $2.30hr. If the combination of hourly rate and tips does not equal the federal minimum the resturant is not required to make up the difference; however they are required to collect federal taxes as if the employee had earned the minimum wage. In an age when most payments are card transactions; the oppurtunity to ‘hide’ tips has all but been elliminated.
FTR…I oppose increasing the minimum wage.
[/quote]

Sorry, $4.25 (4.75 actually) was in Michigan. I thought that was Federal.

That being said, Federal law still requires the total to be $7.25/hour.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

"The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of at least the federal minimum wage to covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.

Some states have minimum wage laws specific to tipped employees. When an employee is subject to both the federal and state wage laws, the employee is entitled to the provisions which provides the greater benefits. "

346

What Obama, or whoever, isn’t telling these people, or folks as he likes to say, is that they should go back to school. They don’t necessarily need a 4 year degree but they should go to a community college and take some English and Math classes. Learning how to read better and write properly as well as basic math skills will help them get a better job, even a better job where they currently work.

Not being able to communicate well hurts a lot of these people. If you look at the coffee shop example, the employee who works hard and can actually talk to people has a better chance of running the place at some point and that management experience can help them get a better job somewhere else if the opportunity arises. Of course that brings up the question of why they are not educated enough for certain jobs right out of high school.

347

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
What Obama, or whoever, isn’t telling these people, or folks as he likes to say, is that they should go back to school. They don’t necessarily need a 4 year degree but they should go to a community college and take some English and Math classes. Learning how to read better and write properly as well as basic math skills will help them get a better job, even a better job where they currently work.

Not being able to communicate well hurts a lot of these people. If you look at the coffee shop example, the employee who works hard and can actually talk to people has a better chance of running the place at some point and that management experience can help them get a better job somewhere else if the opportunity arises. Of course that brings up the question of why they are not educated enough for certain jobs right out of high school.

[/quote]

Because the prep plan is for college, not suited for what that person would be good at.

If schools would identify what you are good at early in life and direct you towards that, than you will be much better off.

While it’s true you can do anything you want to do in the US, you need to be good at it to make a living doing it. They don’t tell you that part nor truly give you an idea of how hard it really is to be awesome at something.

When people find out that I had 3 jobs in college (Army Reservist + 1-2 other jobs at all times), was in a fraternity, held positions in the fraternity and the IFC, maintained 15-18 credit hours, did internships, was a Graduate Assistant, graduated with honors my undergrad and maintained a 3.95 in grad school, volunteered, took the CPA exam on top of working full time, and spent some time in the sandbox, they look at me like I’m crazy.

But that’s what it took to get where I’m at today, and I’m no where near the apex I could be at.

Then you have my buddies who were just in the fraternity, barely passed school with a C, maybe had a part time job and that was about it complaining about not being able to find a job in the career field or making the money they want, what am I supposed to say?

348

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see many father’s of three who work 40+ hours lining up to pour coffee three nights a week. And if they did I imagine they’re going to be worth more than $10/hr.

That’s all I’m saying. [/quote]

What about stocking shelves at the market, or local liquor store? Home Depot doesn’t hire kids very often…

I’ve actually seen quite a few people sign up for that $100-200. Shit half the staff at my college job was doing that if not more. They made more than $10 eventually, but were hands down better employees than the 18 year olds they brought in. So they made it worth the $ to keep them around.

What I’m getting at is a time scale situation, and it seems like you think this will happen the day after the law passes (which it will.)

Part-time shifts start looking a lot better when they start at $10, and you can move up, than start at $7. [/quote]

I’m not disputing that working folks work part time. Of course they do and Home Depot is a good example. I’m saying I have a hard time seeing a measurable increase in working/middle class people entering the job market for $10/hr jobs for what amounts to about $50 more dollars a week.

Maybe it’s just perspective, I certainly wouldn’t work an additional 20 hr/wk if the minimum changed solely because gross will be $50 more bucks.

349

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Maybe it’s just perspective, I certainly wouldn’t work an additional 20 hr/wk if the minimum changed solely because gross will be $50 more bucks. [/quote]

$50 more than it would have been at a lower rate. So that $160 a week, take home around $145, or about $500 a month, $6000 a year. Well it is now $200 a week, take home about $185, or about $740 a month, $8,800 a year.

We’re talking about creep here, and marginal movement. NOT a massive influx (Which I think is where you’re getting hung up.) But that creep effects my hiring. A lot actually.

350

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Maybe it’s just perspective, I certainly wouldn’t work an additional 20 hr/wk if the minimum changed solely because gross will be $50 more bucks. [/quote]

$50 more than it would have been at a lower rate. So that $160 a week, take home around $145, or about $500 a month, $6000 a year. Well it is now $200 a week, take home about $185, or about $740 a month, $8,800 a year.

We’re talking about creep here, and marginal movement. NOT a massive influx (Which I think is where you’re getting hung up.) But that creep effects my hiring. A lot actually. [/quote]

Right, it’s not a large full year change, which is why I have a hard time seeing an influx of job seekers into the market. Will a retiree decide to take a part time job at $8,800 vs. $6,000, maybe. Will a father of three take a part time job because of that additional $2,800, maybe?

I’m not saying it won’t happen. I just think you will see the same applicants, for the most part, regardless of a change in minimum because the reasons for having a minimum wage job wont change.

I’m sure it will effect hiring practices too. I’m not disputing that.

351

If the opportunity costs of time away from your family were the same, I would imagine quite a few people on the bubble would fall off the fence for 3 grand a year…

352

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
If the opportunity costs of time away from your family were the same, I would imagine quite a few people on the bubble would fall off the fence for 3 grand a year… [/quote]

Perhaps.

353

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Turnover is expensive. But not as expensive in low skilled labor as higher skilled. If we are talking writing code, or professional services it is different than pour coffee and banging keys on a register. But keep in mind, with higher wages comes more competent people looking for the position.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that’s necessarily turn though. We aren’t’ talking about a higher wage because the skill required is higher. The wage is artificially higher via government mandate. So you are still going to be hiring the same people at $10 you would of hired at $7.50 (for the most part).

I agree with most everything else. I’m just not sure you are suddenly going to have college grads fighting for a job pouring coffee because it’s $2.50 more/hr. [/quote]

You thinking too extreme.

I have a father of three who works in the local plant for the last 15 years, and is looking to pick up a couple shifts a week to be able to take his wife out more often and maybe go on a slightly better vacation.

v

A 16 year old who might just be a massive shit head, like I was. Smoking weed before his shift etc.

At $10+ an hour, who do you want to hire?[/quote]

You have the same dilemma at $2.30

354

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

You have the same dilemma at $2.30
[/quote]

WTF are you even talking about?

355

Why do prices exist? Scarcity of resources. You can make minimum wage $100/second, but scarcity will still exist. People making minimum wage won’t be buying or saving 11 times what they are now. Prices will rise to compensate.

There are really two options for dealing with scarcity:

  1. Let people freely trade.
  2. Let a central planner/master decide how much of everything everybody can have.

Scarcity exists. Our ancestors were evicted from the Garden of Eden.

356

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The McDonald’s problem is easily fixed: raise wages but don’t worry about shareholders because you then allow people to use their EBT cards there which will probably more than make up the difference. [/quote]

I thought the point of raising the minimum was to reduce the # of people using EBT cards?[/quote]
It’s about keeping those people on welfare and foodstamps while giving them a little bit more pocket money to spend on a “better” cell phone or tablet or at McDonald’s (you don’t have to stick to the dollar menu) so that the working poor think you actually care about them but stay working poor. Sometimes things have to change in order to keep them the same.

I know you were joking with your post but seriously, it’s all a ruse to avoid asking the real question, a question which has already been asked here and I’m sure in a lot of different places, and that question is how did we get to the point that entry level jobs or jobs that were considered part-time work for kids/students or people with a regular job but wanted to make a little extra cash or mothers (OK, fathers too) who stayed home with the kids but now the kids are in school so they work a few hours during the school day are now considered careers?

I get that people working some of these jobs work hard and believe they deserve something to show for it and they are right in the sense that based on effort and commitment they should be earning more. It’s just that rather than seek to get more from where they currently work (and what is a dollar or two more anyway) they should look for another job that will pay them more for the same amount of effort. I know that it isn’t that simple to do and there are reasons why adults can find themselves in certain circumstances, I won’t judge them, but if I were in that position I would rather hear Obama say he is going to do something that will help me get out of my present situation and into a better one, provided I am willing to take advantage of the opportunity. If you are working poor then the raise in min wage won’t change that.

But having said that, the biggest problem is that people have been conditioned to be complacent and accept whatever circumstances they find themselves in as normal, as destiny. Raising min wage is like paying them some hush money. They will have more money to spend on crap, which makes those who sell crap happy, and they will continue with their illusion of being happy and satisfied because they believe that that crap is what life is all about. I saw a commercial for a cell phone family plan that was “only” 160 dollars a month. If you make min wage that bill could be half a weekly paycheck, or more. Too many people see these jobs as a final destination and not a starting point to something better. The truth is that if you envision yourself working flipping burgers for 30 years or more then you should accept that you will not have certain things and live accordingly. [/quote]

That is a damned good post. My thoughts pretty much precisely!

357

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

You have the same dilemma at $2.30
[/quote]

WTF are you even talking about?[/quote]

I hope this helps you feel better :slight_smile:

358

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

You have the same dilemma at $2.30
[/quote]

WTF are you even talking about?[/quote]

I hope this helps you feel better :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Why am I not surprised you have no coherent point what-so-ever?

359

The conservative case against capitalism
The left’s anxiety about concentrated wealth was anticipated almost a century ago ? by the Catholic right

360