Puppycide in Austin

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]

His use of “spin” has basically been reduced to “person who disagrees with me”.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]
A personal sense of right does not always equal a professional sense of right. His desire to lie is irrelevant to his professional action, the point of discussion. You took my example out of context intentionally, hence “spin”. Follow the presented logic. The “who, me?” game belongs in the black teen thread. And to doubleduce.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]

I’ve contradicted myself multiple times, intentionally down play variables and omit portions of the conversation in responses and pretend spin is being used as an unfair accusation.[/quote]
Cool story.

[angry_chicken]

Well, you still didn’t answer my question: Do you think that cops should be allowed to lie and get away with it? Or should they, you know, be held to an ETHICAL standard?

When an LEO is CAUGHT lying (regardless of how his actions may or may not be justified) what SHOULD happen in YOUR little version of the universe?

If you were king for a day, how would YOU treat a lying cop?

[Big_Boss]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]
A personal sense of right does not always equal a professional sense of right. His desire to lie is irrelevant to his professional action, the point of discussion. You took my example out of context intentionally, hence “spin”. Follow the presented logic. The “who, me?” game belongs in the black teen thread. And to doubleduce.[/quote]

YOUR point of discussion is what you meant to say. If I took your example out of context…it’s only because you failed in connecting your military example to a patrol officer on a domestic disturbance call. You keep skipping and thwarting the bigger discussion of the cop lying(which ironically…you don’t deny him doing so). You half-ass want to address that argument…but when the logical questions fall on you…it turns into your SPIN about personal vs. professional right/wrong. Come on,man…your entire argument…is…in…fact…SPIN.

[Nards]

Also, you’re making it sound like the cop went through a rapid-fire checklist in his head like a Vulcan and then chose the best option to within three decimal places in the time given.

I think he got scared and shot the dog.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Well, you still didn’t answer my question: Do you think that cops should be allowed to lie and get away with it? Or should they, you know, be held to an ETHICAL standard?

When an LEO is CAUGHT lying (regardless of how his actions may or may not be justified) what SHOULD happen in YOUR little version of the universe?

If you were king for a day, how would YOU treat a lying cop?[/quote]
I’ve said point blank his mistake was the lie numerous times and that he was wrong for it in the previous responses I alluded to, including my first post in the thread.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]Nards wrote:
Also, you’re making it sound like the cop went through a rapid-fire checklist in his head like a Vulcan and then chose the best option to within three decimal places in the time given.

I think he got scared and shot the dog.[/quote]
I do too. I highly doubt he just shot a dog for shits and giggles. This is irrelevant though as shooting a dog under certain circumstances, circumstances he reasonably believed he was in, isn’t “wrong”. I bet all cases of self defense and justifiable homicide or puppycide are brought on by fear.

Or is this a veiled class clown shenanigan and I missed the punch line?

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]
A personal sense of right does not always equal a professional sense of right. His desire to lie is irrelevant to his professional action, the point of discussion. You took my example out of context intentionally, hence “spin”. Follow the presented logic. The “who, me?” game belongs in the black teen thread. And to doubleduce.[/quote]

YOUR point of discussion is what you meant to say. If I took your example out of context…it’s only because you failed in connecting your military example to a patrol officer on a domestic disturbance call. You keep skipping and thwarting the bigger discussion of the cop lying(which ironically…you don’t deny him doing so). You half-ass want to address that argument…but when the logical questions fall on you…it turns into your SPIN about personal vs. professional right/wrong. Come on,man…your entire argument…is…in…fact…SPIN.

[/quote]
The use of military action vs. personal feelings of soldiers to describe professional duty over personal limitations was discussed very clearly in support of my point. You are the one without the sufficient answer here and took the military issue on an irrelevant tangent. Nothing in my post alluded to Austin, TX police officers charging in to Fallujah with a shock and awe campaign on dogs.

If you don’t like that example, use a paint contractor. Austin is a pretty hippy dippy town, full of environmentalists. A company who usually uses “green” paint is contracted to use less “green” paint on a big job. Reasonably speaking, green enthused workers are not going to quit but will do their job regardless of their personal sense of right.

Or a food production factory where a line manager doesn’t personally like allowing x amount of bug parts and rat hairs in his food but does it anyways because it is acceptable to his company but wasted product and reduced production efficiency are not.

Or an officer who reasonably believes he’s at the scene of a violent crime with an unstable dude and a dog is heading torwards him undeniably threatening a dangerous distraction if not an outright attack and the officer does his job.

Playing dumb because you don’t have an answer and blaming it on me is a little weak.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Well, you still didn’t answer my question: Do you think that cops should be allowed to lie and get away with it? Or should they, you know, be held to an ETHICAL standard?

When an LEO is CAUGHT lying (regardless of how his actions may or may not be justified) what SHOULD happen in YOUR little version of the universe?

If you were king for a day, how would YOU treat a lying cop?[/quote]
To answer the second half, I’d put him through ethics counseling and give him a probationary status with periodic reviews.

Continued lying, whether his actions were justifiable or not, would be grounds for dismissal. Caving to pressure would certainly indicate an inability to function in the job.

*FTR, as a general comment, this is a direct answer to AC’s direct question isolating lies in general from the conversation regarding operational fallacy and doesn’t mean I believe the officer acted wrongly, only that his lies were his mistake as I’ve said multiple times. I still believe it was unnecessary for him to lie. He should’ve explained how he got to his situation and been done.

[zecarlo]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Again search for Firce Decisions at amazon . It’s by Rfiry Miller. Order it and read it.
Until then if you’re talking about how force should or not be used you do not know what you’re talking about.

Translation : Houstonguy is right.[/quote]
Why should I read that when I can refer to my actual LEO training, unlike HG. [/quote]
A teacher and a cop? Will you have personal experience in every scenario discussion?

And conveniently a teacher in a poor school?

Get the fuck out of here.[/quote]
Was a substitute teacher while in school. Am an MP in the National Guard. I know, it’s hard to believe that people actually get out, live, and have various experiences…which they then bring to the table unlike others who will go unnamed. Good job keeping score though. The internet is serious business. [/quote]
Lol! A substitute?

And now an MP?

Call that “living” if you want but you’re full of shit with “personal experience” for discussion.[/quote]
I guess if you live with your parents it would be unbelievable. What about your experience? [/quote]
Really? A “shot in the dark” war? Even after openly laying out your bullshit?

FTR, a substitute isn’t in any way an expert on much of anything, certainly not an educational system. And you’re still stretching here. Nice spin and all but you’re a waste of time.

[/quote]
Again, what is your experience? Why do you avoid the question? Why do you demand facts from others yet when the same is asked of you, you refuse? Why the fear?

What’s funny is how you claim a sub isn’t close to an expert on education yet you are because you are acquainted with educators. You don’t even see the irony in your own posts.

So tell us, what is your experience in law enforcement? Don’t be afraid. You’re safe in your parents’ basement.

[zecarlo]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Also, you’re making it sound like the cop went through a rapid-fire checklist in his head like a Vulcan and then chose the best option to within three decimal places in the time given.

I think he got scared and shot the dog.[/quote]
I do too. I highly doubt he just shot a dog for shits and giggles. This is irrelevant though as shooting a dog under certain circumstances, circumstances he reasonably believed he was in, isn’t “wrong”. I bet all cases of self defense and justifiable homicide or puppycide are brought on by fear.

Or is this a veiled class clown shenanigan and I missed the punch line?[/quote]
The problem is your use of reasonable. Just because he believes it was reasonable doesn’t make it right. The question is if it is reasonable for a police officer to behave that way and that is decided by others. If the cop has a phobia when it comes to dogs, for example, it is irrelevant.

[Big_Boss]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]
A personal sense of right does not always equal a professional sense of right. His desire to lie is irrelevant to his professional action, the point of discussion. You took my example out of context intentionally, hence “spin”. Follow the presented logic. The “who, me?” game belongs in the black teen thread. And to doubleduce.[/quote]

YOUR point of discussion is what you meant to say. If I took your example out of context…it’s only because you failed in connecting your military example to a patrol officer on a domestic disturbance call. You keep skipping and thwarting the bigger discussion of the cop lying(which ironically…you don’t deny him doing so). You half-ass want to address that argument…but when the logical questions fall on you…it turns into your SPIN about personal vs. professional right/wrong. Come on,man…your entire argument…is…in…fact…SPIN.

[/quote]
The use of military action vs. personal feelings of soldiers to describe professional duty over personal limitations was discussed very clearly in support of my point. You are the one without the sufficient answer here and took the military issue on an irrelevant tangent. Nothing in my post alluded to Austin, TX police officers charging in to Fallujah with a shock and awe campaign on dogs.

If you don’t like that example, use a paint contractor. Austin is a pretty hippy dippy town, full of environmentalists. A company who usually uses “green” paint is contracted to use less “green” paint on a big job. Reasonably speaking, green enthused workers are not going to quit but will do their job regardless of their personal sense of right.

Or a food production factory where a line manager doesn’t personally like allowing x amount of bug parts and rat hairs in his food but does it anyways because it is acceptable to his company but wasted product and reduced production efficiency are not.

Or an officer who reasonably believes he’s at the scene of a violent crime with an unstable dude and a dog is heading torwards him undeniably threatening a dangerous distraction if not an outright attack and the officer does his job.

Playing dumb because you don’t have an answer and blaming it on me is a little weak.[/quote]

Having a difference of opinion…based on logical variations…(including some of yours which are possible…but not FACT)and the HUGE possibility of the officer lying(oh…no!!)…is not playing dumb…and in fact…that accusation is weak. Keep spinning the merry-go-round.

[zecarlo]

It’s pretty obvious that the officer lied because he knew he was wrong. He panicked, maybe he is scared of dogs, and was too quick to use his gun.

The same thing happened in my town years ago. Several cops showed up, during the day, at someone’s house because a neighbor complained about the noise (he was having a cookout). The officers approached and his dog, a golden retriever, ran towards them in a manner that a dog person would recognize as friendly.

One cop drew his weapon. The owner yelled don’t shoot my dog. The cop shot the dog in head (it survived but lost an eye and the city paid the vet bill). The other cops didn’t draw their guns let alone shoot. I went to HS with the cop who shot the dog and he was always a bit of a pussy so I’m not surprised he would be scared of a dog.

However, does his fear in that situation make his actions reasonable and thus right? The other cops weren’t afraid so who does he get judged against? A cop gets judged as a cop and not an individual. This particular cop’s fear, and how he reasoned because of it, was not judged as reasonable. Of course he couldn’t lie about what happened and had to face being ridiculed by the other cops. Oddly enough he left the dept to go on to become a state trooper.

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Again search for Firce Decisions at amazon . It’s by Rfiry Miller. Order it and read it.
Until then if you’re talking about how force should or not be used you do not know what you’re talking about.

Translation : Houstonguy is right.[/quote]
Why should I read that when I can refer to my actual LEO training, unlike HG. [/quote]
A teacher and a cop? Will you have personal experience in every scenario discussion?

And conveniently a teacher in a poor school?

Get the fuck out of here.[/quote]
Was a substitute teacher while in school. Am an MP in the National Guard. I know, it’s hard to believe that people actually get out, live, and have various experiences…which they then bring to the table unlike others who will go unnamed. Good job keeping score though. The internet is serious business. [/quote]
Lol! A substitute?

And now an MP?

Call that “living” if you want but you’re full of shit with “personal experience” for discussion.[/quote]
I guess if you live with your parents it would be unbelievable. What about your experience? [/quote]
Really? A “shot in the dark” war? Even after openly laying out your bullshit?

FTR, a substitute isn’t in any way an expert on much of anything, certainly not an educational system. And you’re still stretching here. Nice spin and all but you’re a waste of time.

[/quote]
Again, what is your experience? Why do you avoid the question? Why do you demand facts from others yet when the same is asked of you, you refuse? Why the fear?

What’s funny is how you claim a sub isn’t close to an expert on education yet you are because you are acquainted with educators. You don’t even see the irony in your own posts.

So tell us, what is your experience in law enforcement? Don’t be afraid. You’re safe in your parents’ basement. [/quote]
What’s funny is you position yourself as an expert based on alleged experiences and come to find out, you don’t have said experience at all. This is a far cry from objective reasoning and taints your posts with a strong whiff of horse shit.

There are no basements in Texas.

What I do is irrelevant and, unlike you, I won’t pretend otherwise. Frankly, I believe roscoedog is actually an LEO and it seems as though his thinking and mine are pretty well aligned. Tom63 seems pretty knowledgeable as well. Anecdotal, I know, but then so are you and with a flair for dishonesty. So, what about lying cops?

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
HG, do you think it’s acceptable for LEO’s to lie with no consequence? If he was ‘in the right’ as you’ve been asserting, then why did he feel compelled to lie?[/quote]
As I’ve mentioned, his mistake is in creating a story, not his actions which are the focus of discussion.

The responsibility for his mistake lies with the break in communication and he should’ve honestly addressed how he came to be in the situation he was and been done with it. This doesn’t necessarily require an apology either, though it couldn’t hurt PR.

As for why he did it, I couldn’t say. A heightened sense of stress, fear of the unknown, an avoidance to a personal sense of responsibility even if he was professionally in the right…

Not being rude but I’ve discussed this with more detail in my first post, I think page 3, and then through multiple different angles with doubleduce.[/quote]

Well…his need to lie weighs heavy on his own credibility. His credibility weighs heavy on backing the “he did the right thing” argument. [/quote]
As discussed, personal and professional “right” and “wrong” are not the same.

The military was used as an example earlier, let’s use it again.

Soldiers rightly go in to enemy territory and kill people. It’s their job whether they personally feel remorse or not.

When a soldier suffers PTSD, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is “wrong”. Hold the logic…

He may have caved to a personal sense of wrong, doesn’t mean he operated incorrectly considering what he knew.

Again, this has been discussed.[/quote].

Well using military/PTSD examples paint a nice picture of justifying deadly use of force…in an already hostile environment(ie.war). That dynamic doesn’t mesh with this situation(or for everyday LEO work). Grossly misused example,imo.

You use the word “may” quite a few times. Which leads me to believe what you argue is only one possibility,right?? Well…what you’re arguing may be the case in justifying his actions. But he may have caved to the possibility of facing scrutiny for his actions…and decided to lie.

Your arguments are based on the fallacy of his story,imo. [/quote]
Remove your spin and follow the logic.[/quote]

We’re both on path of logic…but I’m not the one skipping the cracks. [/quote]
A personal sense of right does not always equal a professional sense of right. His desire to lie is irrelevant to his professional action, the point of discussion. You took my example out of context intentionally, hence “spin”. Follow the presented logic. The “who, me?” game belongs in the black teen thread. And to doubleduce.[/quote]

YOUR point of discussion is what you meant to say. If I took your example out of context…it’s only because you failed in connecting your military example to a patrol officer on a domestic disturbance call. You keep skipping and thwarting the bigger discussion of the cop lying(which ironically…you don’t deny him doing so). You half-ass want to address that argument…but when the logical questions fall on you…it turns into your SPIN about personal vs. professional right/wrong. Come on,man…your entire argument…is…in…fact…SPIN.

[/quote]
The use of military action vs. personal feelings of soldiers to describe professional duty over personal limitations was discussed very clearly in support of my point. You are the one without the sufficient answer here and took the military issue on an irrelevant tangent. Nothing in my post alluded to Austin, TX police officers charging in to Fallujah with a shock and awe campaign on dogs.

If you don’t like that example, use a paint contractor. Austin is a pretty hippy dippy town, full of environmentalists. A company who usually uses “green” paint is contracted to use less “green” paint on a big job. Reasonably speaking, green enthused workers are not going to quit but will do their job regardless of their personal sense of right.

Or a food production factory where a line manager doesn’t personally like allowing x amount of bug parts and rat hairs in his food but does it anyways because it is acceptable to his company but wasted product and reduced production efficiency are not.

Or an officer who reasonably believes he’s at the scene of a violent crime with an unstable dude and a dog is heading torwards him undeniably threatening a dangerous distraction if not an outright attack and the officer does his job.

Playing dumb because you don’t have an answer and blaming it on me is a little weak.[/quote]

Having a difference of opinion…based on logical variations…(including some of yours which are possible…but not FACT)and the HUGE possibility of the officer lying(oh…no!!)…is not playing dumb…and in fact…that accusation is weak. Keep spinning the merry-go-round.[/quote]
Something like that.

Tangent /=/ logical variation

[HoustonGuy]

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
It’s pretty obvious that the officer lied because he knew he was wrong. He panicked, maybe he is scared of dogs, and was too quick to use his gun.

The same thing happened in my town years ago. Several cops showed up, during the day, at someone’s house because a neighbor complained about the noise (he was having a cookout). The officers approached and his dog, a golden retriever, ran towards them in a manner that a dog person would recognize as friendly.

One cop drew his weapon. The owner yelled don’t shoot my dog. The cop shot the dog in head (it survived but lost an eye and the city paid the vet bill). The other cops didn’t draw their guns let alone shoot. I went to HS with the cop who shot the dog and he was always a bit of a pussy so I’m not surprised he would be scared of a dog.

However, does his fear in that situation make his actions reasonable and thus right? The other cops weren’t afraid so who does he get judged against? A cop gets judged as a cop and not an individual. This particular cop’s fear, and how he reasoned because of it, was not judged as reasonable. Of course he couldn’t lie about what happened and had to face being ridiculed by the other cops. Oddly enough he left the dept to go on to become a state trooper. [/quote]
He gets judged against standard operating procedure. Odd an MP wouldn’t know that.

You’re lying again. And probably from your moms basement.

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Again search for Firce Decisions at amazon . It’s by Rfiry Miller. Order it and read it.
Until then if you’re talking about how force should or not be used you do not know what you’re talking about.

Translation : Houstonguy is right.[/quote]
Why should I read that when I can refer to my actual LEO training, unlike HG. [/quote]
A teacher and a cop? Will you have personal experience in every scenario discussion?

And conveniently a teacher in a poor school?

Get the fuck out of here.[/quote]
Was a substitute teacher while in school. Am an MP in the National Guard. I know, it’s hard to believe that people actually get out, live, and have various experiences…which they then bring to the table unlike others who will go unnamed. Good job keeping score though. The internet is serious business. [/quote]
Lol! A substitute?

And now an MP?

Call that “living” if you want but you’re full of shit with “personal experience” for discussion.[/quote]
I guess if you live with your parents it would be unbelievable. What about your experience? [/quote]
Really? A “shot in the dark” war? Even after openly laying out your bullshit?

FTR, a substitute isn’t in any way an expert on much of anything, certainly not an educational system. And you’re still stretching here. Nice spin and all but you’re a waste of time.

[/quote]
Again, what is your experience? Why do you avoid the question? Why do you demand facts from others yet when the same is asked of you, you refuse? Why the fear?

What’s funny is how you claim a sub isn’t close to an expert on education yet you are because you are acquainted with educators. You don’t even see the irony in your own posts.

So tell us, what is your experience in law enforcement? Don’t be afraid. You’re safe in your parents’ basement. [/quote]

dood, he soooo read a book once.

[zecarlo]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Again search for Firce Decisions at amazon . It’s by Rfiry Miller. Order it and read it.
Until then if you’re talking about how force should or not be used you do not know what you’re talking about.

Translation : Houstonguy is right.[/quote]
Why should I read that when I can refer to my actual LEO training, unlike HG. [/quote]
A teacher and a cop? Will you have personal experience in every scenario discussion?

And conveniently a teacher in a poor school?

Get the fuck out of here.[/quote]
Was a substitute teacher while in school. Am an MP in the National Guard. I know, it’s hard to believe that people actually get out, live, and have various experiences…which they then bring to the table unlike others who will go unnamed. Good job keeping score though. The internet is serious business. [/quote]
Lol! A substitute?

And now an MP?

Call that “living” if you want but you’re full of shit with “personal experience” for discussion.[/quote]
I guess if you live with your parents it would be unbelievable. What about your experience? [/quote]
Really? A “shot in the dark” war? Even after openly laying out your bullshit?

FTR, a substitute isn’t in any way an expert on much of anything, certainly not an educational system. And you’re still stretching here. Nice spin and all but you’re a waste of time.

[/quote]
Again, what is your experience? Why do you avoid the question? Why do you demand facts from others yet when the same is asked of you, you refuse? Why the fear?

What’s funny is how you claim a sub isn’t close to an expert on education yet you are because you are acquainted with educators. You don’t even see the irony in your own posts.

So tell us, what is your experience in law enforcement? Don’t be afraid. You’re safe in your parents’ basement. [/quote]
What’s funny is you position yourself as an expert based on alleged experiences and come to find out, you don’t have said experience at all. This is a far cry from objective reasoning and taints your posts with a strong whiff of horse shit.

There are no basements in Texas.

What I do is irrelevant and, unlike you, I won’t pretend otherwise. Frankly, I believe roscoedog is actually an LEO and it seems as though his thinking and mine are pretty well aligned. Tom63 seems pretty knowledgeable as well. Anecdotal, I know, but then so are you and with a flair for dishonesty. So, what about lying cops?[/quote]

If I prove I am an MP will you stop posting here? Ball is in your court Sparky.

[FrozenNinja]

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
Now that they caught him lying on tape, he should be fired. If you would lie to cover your ass in an incident involving your weapon being fired, you can’t be trusted with the power given to a poice officer. I’m not talking about transferring him to a desk job either. He should be straight up fired.

If I were caught lying about less important things at my job, I’d be gone.

I got really annoyed where he tried to flip it and make it out to be the dog owners fault:

“Why didn’t you get your dog?” . Maybe because you didn’t even give him 3 seconds to do that?[/quote]

This. Anyone who sees anything else but this is a lil misaligned. If he lied about shooting a dog, chances are he’ll lie about more serious subject matter.