[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You are the one making unqualified accusations…
[/quote]
Not sure if srs?[/quote]
Re-read the thread, sans bullshit quote edits and feigned ignorance.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You are the one making unqualified accusations…
[/quote]
Not sure if srs?[/quote]
Re-read the thread, sans bullshit quote edits and feigned ignorance.[/quote]
Where I’m making statements about my belief on the subject, or where you are telling me that my perspective is lacking and that you have a real understanding of the cops perspective? You want me to start quoting where you make these claims it is now apparent that you have no idea what you are talking about?
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
A bunch of really awesome points, largely ignored.
[/quote]
With all due respect, while rig work is certainly dangerous, requires a hairy set of nuts and unfortunately lends itself to deadly accidents, you work in a mechanically controlled environment with back up safety equipment, protocol and procedures. Unless you contract to BP, the only real room for error ending in tragedy is human error on the part of operators and inspectors who absolutely should be held accountable if negligence is discovered. The continuity of machinery and benchmark indicators of maintenance generally remain static.
Police are involved in situations made volatile by the unpredictability of human nature, often fanned by flames of fear, anger, guilt, drug abuse et cetera. When quantifying the dangers of job A vs. job B, it’s only fair to qualify the ramifications of each danger as well. Scaling would indeed require imaginative subjectivity but you can’t honestly say police aren’t faced with highly dangerous and, even worse, unpredictable scenarios on a regular basis that not only put them but also innocent people on the line; innocent people they risk their own lives to protect.
A system engineered by very brilliant minds and maintained to spec is another ballgame altogether.[/quote]
I didn’t make the ranking, that’s why I posted those links (more than one). According to the smarter people than you or I MY career is more dangerous than cops. They are BOTH dangerous jobs. And FYI, I’m not on nice new drilling rigs, I’m on 50 year old production platforms with years of “southern engineering” and multiple code violations. I’ve been tasked to bring it up to code without interrupting production. That means doing it hot in class 1, div 1 locations. Sometimes in 40 mph wind. If you think that’s easy, simple, controlled or well engineered, you are mistaken, my friend. But you’re missing my point.
My job is dangerous and has potential deadly consequences to priceless things like human life and the environment. If I DROP A PIECE OF TRASH, I can go to jail. That’s how strict the enforcement is. No one WANT’S to drop trash. No one WANT’S to cause an oil spill. Just like most cops don’t WANT to shoot a guy reaching for his wallet.
But when it happens, when the the unfortunate RESULT is a loss of life (just like when the unfortunate RESULT has damaged the environment REGARDLESS OF INTENTION) THEY have NO consequence.
I personally believe that human life is more valuable than the environment. There are FAR MORE people “accidentally killed” by cops than there are oil spills, but far more people lose their jobs for oil spill than COPS lose their jobs for killing innocent people.
I think there should be a higher standard for cops. They wear body armor and carry weapons. I don’t think they should be allowed to draw down on people because of an UNKNOWN danger. I think they should be allowed to bring deadly force into play ONLY when deadly force is brought against them - kinda like the rules of engagement our military boys have to abide by in KNOWN COMBAT ZONES. A lot less innocent people would die.
Yes, more cops would probable die as well, and that’s a risk they will KNOWINGLY accept when they decide to become police officers. But the lives of the citizens they SERVE and are charged to PROTECT is worth it.[/quote]
Southern Engineering is certainly a friendly term, and probably a better one. I like that. Just keep in mind the big boys are usually hiring… you’d more than likely be a shoe in on your own now though.
Regardless of who made the point, I’m addressing your addition to the conversation. A “smart” pollster will allow room for subjective gray area.
The point I’m making is that regardless of work conditions on a rig which are tough, sweaty and take some hairy nuts, you are working with a grain of continuity (as in wood grain; a flow and not a tiny spec). Known dangers with known outcomes. While I’m sure you may not always know exactly where a charge is grounded or a screw is located until you have eyes on it, you have the luxury of knowing what you are looking for time and again.
A cop doesn’t. The greater element of surprise begets a different set of rules of engagement. Speaking of rules of engagement, ask a soldier what he thinks about the shoot first policy. A real one who has actually seen combat. There is no right answer really, but the people charged with serving and protecting ought to have enough autonomy to do so. The error shouldn’t result in failed missions, aborted positions and compromised goals.
A cop does volunteer for the job, that doesn’t mean he volunteers for suicide and shouldn’t be expected to escape death by luck and then start protecting himself.
Greenpeace bullshit lobbyists certainly shouldn’t be setting precedents for police operations vicariously through an indirectly, conversationally attached subjective danger ranking. It’s a shame what they’ve done to the oil industry frankly. [/quote]
Once again, read this book: Amazon.com
I promise you that Israeli Special Forces Units encounter extremely unpredictable, unconventional, and dangerous situations several times a month. They get shot at by 10-year olds, and they shoot back. Whenever they discharge their weapon, they are pulled out of the field after the mission is complete and they go through a rigorous investigation/evaluation that takes a few weeks to complete. After this is complete, they may or may not go back to their unit. Unlike American cops, they are held accountable for their actions.
These soldiers who operate in one of the most dangerous places in the world have women attack them with knives, and they manage to win the fight without shooting or killing the woman. If soldiers can pull this off in the middle east, it isn’t much to ask for American cops to learn some self-control, think, and be held accountable for firing their weapons.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You are the one making unqualified accusations…
[/quote]
Not sure if srs?[/quote]
Re-read the thread, sans bullshit quote edits and feigned ignorance.[/quote]
Where I’m making statements about my belief on the subject, or where you are telling me that my perspective is lacking and that you have a real understanding of the cops perspective? You want me to start quoting where you make these claims it is now apparent that you have no idea what you are talking about?[/quote]
Heck, I can even quote you telling me about how I’m wrong about the firefighter perspective and how you know that better than me too.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You are the one making unqualified accusations…
[/quote]
Not sure if srs?[/quote]
Re-read the thread, sans bullshit quote edits and feigned ignorance.[/quote]
Where I’m making statements about my belief on the subject, or where you are telling me that my perspective is lacking and that you have a real understanding of the cops perspective? You want me to start quoting where you make these claims it is now apparent that you have no idea what you are talking about?[/quote]
More like where you believe being a fireman = being a cop and then get on a soap box of feigned ignorance and imaginary spin. Basically the whole thread, no quoting necessary.
It still doesn’t make sense to me how giving someone more power and lower standards than typical citizens is a good idea. It’s a perfect recipe for corruption and its effects. It’s a theme seen in history time and again.
This thread is now reminding me of that one we had a few months ago about a cop shooting a guy who was coming at him with a knife outside a McDonalds and one poster here kept insisting that the cop should have shot him in the knee, an would not give that foolish idea up.
[quote]Nards wrote:
This thread is now reminding me of that one we had a few months ago about a cop shooting a guy who was coming at him with a knife outside a McDonalds and one poster here kept insisting that the cop should have shot him in the knee, an would not give that foolish idea up.
[/quote]
A dog that kept it’s distance but was barking and posturing and an unarmed man=man with a knife coming at you
really!?
You misunderstand…I mean that HoustonGuy is arguing on and on against 12 people and seems to be being deliberately recalcitrant.
In the other thread there was a guy who was sure the cop could have just shot the guy in the knee or some dumb shit and wouldn’t change his mind and it went on for pages.
I was always on the dog’s side.
Y’see…that train is logic and reasonableness and non-iconoclastic thinking bumping ceaselessly into those who will have nothing to do with it.
I should that every iteration of it hitting the obtuse cat is representative of another poster here.
And nards gets to be the lucky 13th cry baby!
So far the astute cats have contradicted themselves or intentionally edited conversations so…
I think the more accurate observation would be the train is realistic logic bumping against irrational emotion.
Strength in numbers though amiright! Group think over rationality. BUT OTHER PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME TOO! BOOM! GET IN THE CHOPPA! OH HAI! EnD tHrEaD!
Srsly though, the cop reasonably believed he was in the right place and acted accordingly. His only mistake was making shit up instead of explaining how he came to his situation. A handful of bitches whining about police authority on the internet = basically nothing. Rage against that machine though.
Ronnie Coleman. Just throwing it out there.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Mac85 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
a bunch of really awesome points, largely ignored.[/quote]
Yes, those are all serious problems. I don’t think anyone was defending the cop for his bad track record or lying after the fact. The argument I was making was that he had a few seconds to make a decision. Factor in the totality of circumstances, and there could have been a serious officer and public safety issue. In the end, that wasn’t the case. He shouldn’t have lied about it, and if he’s a turd then get rid of him.
If I remember correctly, you are a convicted criminal for armed robbery, yes? Do you find it odd that you have friends who are “cops”? I’m sure you’re a decent guy, but you can see the conflict of interest. Good cops probably wouldn’t be real close with you given your past. How did you react to your friends after they told and showed you about the brutality they inflict? Did you report them to their professional standards bureau? If not, you are just as bad as the cops who hide behind the “blue wall”.
[/quote]
Why would it be “odd” that I’m friends with cops? My friend Shawn is a DC cop - he and I used to steal cars together when we were teenagers. Shit he’s the one that taught me how to use a dent puller. My cousin is my cousin… should he “disown” me as family? He’s 13 years younger than me, I taught him how to fight and how to pick up chicks, etc… Some of my other cop friends I’ve known since HS.
As for the “acquaintances” (and the one who was bragging is an acquaintance - the husband of a close friend of my ex-wife) most of them don’t know I’m a felon. I don’t go around with a sign on my forehead that says “felon”. I did my time, paid my fines and became a upstanding, positive member of my community. Those that do know, have treated me civilly and have even engaged me in friendly conversation.
As for how I reacted when he showed me the pictures, I gave him a high five and and said, “Damn, bro! You fucked that guy UP! ha ha ha!”. Do you think I should have confronted an obviously psychotic individual with a track record of violating people’s rights and in a position of power over me (and any other citizen unfortunate enough to cross him) to cause all kinds of hardship and trouble? Someone who knows my address and personal information about my family? Are you fucking STUPID?[/quote]
It’s odd because I don’t know too many cops who really hang out with criminals. On that note, I don’t know too many cops who used to steal cars. As for your cousin I’m of the belief that family is family, and business is business.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t treat you in a civil manner, but you can see why a person in law enforcement may not be interested in developing a close relationship with you, right?
No, but you could have submitted an anonymous tip to his professional standards branch if it really bothered you as much as you claim. That would have at least made his superiors take a look at the guy. Instead you passed a fault and complimented him on his criminal acts. Good job.
If you’re not willing to help make change, you can’t really complain too much.
I don’t know much about police, but in at least one prison most inmates get most of their contraband from the guards. It’s not uncommon for the guards to get fired for supplying inmates with contraband or having sexual relations with them.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Strength in numbers though amiright! Group think over rationality. BUT OTHER PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME TOO! BOOM! GET IN THE CHOPPA! OH HAI! EnD tHrEaD!
Srsly though, the cop reasonably believed he was in the right place and acted accordingly. His only mistake was making shit up instead of explaining how he came to his situation. A handful of bitches whining about police authority on the internet = basically nothing. Rage against that machine though.[/quote]
Yup.
The more people tell you you are wrong, the more right you are.
Solid.
I agree that majority doesn’t necessitate rightness, but your logic just doesn’t hold up and you have yet to properly refute arguments against you.
I feel that it has been established through logical proceedings (not just I’m right, your wrong) that cops have more power and get reduced to no consequences for their actions when they don’t do the right action.
(power)+(reduced consequences)=corruption
Is there an issue with this line of thought Houstonguy? If so, please point out why.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I agree that majority doesn’t necessitate rightness, but your logic just doesn’t hold up and you have yet to properly refute arguments against you.
I feel that it has been established through logical proceedings (not just I’m right, your wrong) that cops have more power and get reduced to no consequences for their actions when they don’t do the right action.
(power)+(reduced consequences)=corruption
Is there an issue with this line of thought Houstonguy? If so, please point out why.[/quote]
I disagree and see it the other way given intentionally omitted arguments, blatant spin and contradictions vs. your opinion.
To address your angle though, what would a police force be if not for power above standard allowances? Are you propagating anarchy? Your idealism is only semantically inflammatory here and not an “issue” at all. Police do not, as a generally accepted norm, run around without consequence.
The discussion at hand is regarding one officers actions, a discussion where proponents arguing against the officer have uniformly withdrawn to manipulations and contradictions.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Strength in numbers though amiright! Group think over rationality. BUT OTHER PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME TOO! BOOM! GET IN THE CHOPPA! OH HAI! EnD tHrEaD!
Srsly though, the cop reasonably believed he was in the right place and acted accordingly. His only mistake was making shit up instead of explaining how he came to his situation. A handful of bitches whining about police authority on the internet = basically nothing. Rage against that machine though.[/quote]
Yup.
The more people tell you you are wrong, the more right you are.
Solid.[/quote]Something like that.