Psychologists Repudiate Gay-to-Straight Therapy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
As the homo agenda gets pushed and real women get brainwashed into acting like men, then more and more hetero men will go nutz, like this guy.

Forlife, the homo agenda you promote is insane and leads to destruction, like this shit.

Explain to me again how homosexuality has anything to do with this nutjob killing women? My understanding is that he was a straight guy who hated women because he couldn’t get any action.[/quote]

Because those women were in an aerobics class, man. If that ain’t “acting like men”, I don’t know what is.

122

[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Here’s the actual APA report, forlife…

I love how you claim to provide the actual APA report, while blatantly omitting the actual conclusions of that report. Here you go in case you missed it:

The “Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts” also advises that parents, guardians, young people and their families avoid sexual orientation treatments that portray homosexuality as a mental illness or developmental disorder and instead seek psychotherapy, social support and educational services “that provide accurate information on sexual orientation and sexuality, increase family and school support and reduce rejection of sexual minority youth.”

“Contrary to claims of sexual orientation change advocates and practitioners, there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation,” said Judith M. Glassgold, PsyD, chair of the task force. “Scientifically rigorous older studies in this area found that sexual orientation was unlikely to change due to efforts designed for this purpose. Contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates, recent research studies do not provide evidence of sexual orientation change as the research methods are inadequate to determine the effectiveness of these interventions.” Glassgold added: “At most, certain studies suggested that some individuals learned how to ignore or not act on their homosexual attractions. Yet, these studies did not indicate for whom this was possible, how long it lasted or its long-term mental health effects. Also, this result was much less likely to be true for people who started out only attracted to people of the same sex.”

Based on this review, the task force recommended that mental health professionals avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts when providing assistance to people distressed about their own or others’ sexual orientation.

It’s not rocket science. Reparative therapy doesn’t change people’s orientation, and has double the chance of causing harm. Instead of trying to pray away the gay, people should either choose a celibate life if their religious beliefs demand it (sad, but better than lying to themselves), or find a religion that allows them to live true to who they are.[/quote]

Some of us don’t jump to the conclusions, forlife, when we read something. Some of us actually read the entire thing and interpolate the data to form our own conclusions. I know such thinking is anathema to people like yourself.

TB23 was right at the beginning of this whole discussion. You’re just like a bunch of PowerPoint slides running over and over again on a screen.

“Telic congruence” is a term you ought to familiarize yourself with before you go running around telling people what is and isn’t good for their psyches. It was a rather important concept in the APA’s report which, sadly, you obviously haven’t read.

123

[quote]anonym wrote:
Because those women were in an aerobics class, man. If that ain’t “acting like men”, I don’t know what is.[/quote]

God forbid the women would have been on the gym floor pounding weights instead…HH would have all the “proof” he needs to justify his anti-lesbian crusade :wink:

124

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Some of us don’t jump to the conclusions, forlife, when we read something. Some of us actually read the entire thing and interpolate the data to form our own conclusions.[/quote]

Lol, so reading an abstract qualifies you to draw more accurate conclusions than the actual psychologists conducting and reviewing 47 years of research.

God knows, your preexisting bias against gays has nothing whatsoever to do with your interpretation of their findings.

125

[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Some of us don’t jump to the conclusions, forlife, when we read something. Some of us actually read the entire thing and interpolate the data to form our own conclusions.

Lol, so reading an abstract qualifies you to draw more accurate conclusions than the actual psychologists conducting and reviewing 47 years of research.

God knows, your preexisting bias against gays has nothing whatsoever to do with your interpretation of their findings.[/quote]
9th time?

Forlife, I only continue in this conversation because it exposes the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of people like yourself, and why the rest of us ought not coddle or appease them with further concessions in an effort to finally hear the last of them (an event which will never occur, btw).

If you’ll kindly scroll down to page 35 of the report, the discussion about the poor methodological quality of SOCE studies begins. From page 42:

[quote]We conclude that there is a dearth of scientifically sound research on the safety of SOCE. Early and recent research studies provide no clear indication of the
prevalence of harmful outcomes among people who have undergone efforts to change their sexual orientation or the frequency of occurrence of harm because no study to date of adequate scientific rigor has been explicitly designed to do so. Thus, we cannot conclude how
likely it is that harm will occur from SOCE. However, studies from both periods indicate
that attempts to change sexual orientation may cause or exacerbate distress and poor mental health in some individuals, including depression and suicidal thoughts. The lack of rigorous research on the safety of SOCE represents a serious concern, as do studies that report
perceptions of harm (cf. Lilienfeld, 2007).[/quote]

Look up ‘dearth’ in the dictionary and see if you can’t make sense of the first sentence I quoted.

126

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Forlife, I only continue in this conversation because it exposes the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of people like yourself…[/quote]

It took literally less than 10 minutes for you to whine about ad hominem attacks against bigots in one post, only to turn around and issue a scathing ad hominem of your own. What a hypocrite.

Did you forget to bold this part?

You know very well that the APA CONCLUDES THAT REPARATIVE THERAPY SHOULD NOT BE PRACTICED. Why do you keep dancing around this fact?

127

[quote]forlife wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Forlife, I only continue in this conversation because it exposes the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of people like yourself…

It took literally less than 10 minutes for you to whine about ad hominem attacks against bigots in one post, only to turn around and issue a scathing ad hominem of your own. What a hypocrite.
[/quote]

Can I call someone who repeatedly tells lies a ‘liar’, or would that not be appropriate because you consider it ‘ad hominem’? If someone fits a definition based on enormous evidence, I and everyone else reserve the right to use the word(s) matching that definition. What do you call someone who keeps repeating “…47 years of research” like a broken record?

[quote]
However, studies from both periods indicate that attempts to change sexual orientation may cause or exacerbate distress and poor mental health in some individuals, including depression and suicidal thoughts…

You know very well that the APA CONCLUDES THAT REPARATIVE THERAPY SHOULD NOT BE PRACTICED. Why do you keep dancing around this fact?[/quote]

Because the studies of SOCE were of poor quality. I want to see controlled studies of good quality. You don’t because you’re freaked out that SOCE might actually be proven effective, thus invalidating a number of your claims.

I do agree that reparative therapy should follow the APA’s guidelines of causing no further harm. I believe that if they steer clear of “aversion therapy” style practices, they just might succeed. No one likes to be beaten over the head with guilt - it’s just not healthy. Back in the 1960s, though, they (psychiatrists) were hooking people up to a voltage source in an effort to shock people clean of their anxiety. They found newer, better methods because they were allowed to study them. No one sat there and said, “Well, shock therapy is bad for you, so let’s ban research into the treatment of anxiety!” Homosexuality, it is argued by many, is bad for you. HIV, gonorrhea, domestic violence, promiscuity - yikes! Furthermore, many people desire to live a life of “telic congruence” with their values, which precludes that they remain homosexual (at least, in practice). Practicing a life of telic incongruence is very bad for your mental health, as I’m sure you can attest. You’re obviously still not over it.

128

Well, if it’s genetic or some kind of “hormonal imbalance in the womb” issue, seems like advancements in bio-tech and genetic therapy will result in a new “reparative therapy.”

129

As predicted, you immediately launched into a defense of your attack on my character (you know, the one where you called me intellectually and morally bankrupt). And this, in the wake of whining about the mean gay activists that attack you for being a bigot.

Priceless.

Homosexuality is not “bad for you”. When you acknowledge that people can be gay AND healthy, you’ll have taken the first baby step toward true understanding. Spare me the histrionics about gays being sexually irresponsible. Not only are many heteros similarly irresponsible, but many gays live healthy, productive lives…and we deserve equal civil rights.

Telic congruence is important. I’ve always believed that, which is why I tried for so many years to deny, repress, and change my sexual orientation in the misguided belief that gays are bound for hell. Fortunately, the telic conflict was resolved once I realized that my belief was based on fairy tales rather than facts.

130

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Forlife, I only continue in this conversation because it exposes the complete intellectual and moral bankruptcy of people like yourself,[/quote]

Not an ad hominem.

131

[quote]forlife wrote:
As predicted, you immediately launched into a defense of your attack on my character (you know, the one where you called me intellectually and morally bankrupt). And this, in the wake of whining about the mean gay activists that attack you for being a bigot.
[/quote]

As usual, forlife, you’re reading your own assumptions into what I’ve said. The “intellectual and moral bankruptcy” part comes from your obvious repetition of various lies on this thread as well as your refusal to deal with any of the actual data. Your gayness hasn’t got a bit to do with what I’ve said, I’m afraid. And I never actually whined about being attacked on the other thread. I was just pointing out the tactics of people like yourself who use lies and ad hominem to silence debate.

As I said earlier, there are normal, well-adjusted homosexuals. Then there are the types like yourself, who can’t see anything beyond the end of their nose and refuse to try.

Yes, but you’d have us ignore the elephant in the room: homosexual promiscuity, which is a function of many things, including the unchecked male libido. In other words, your argument is “pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! Look at this small sample over here of gays in a stable relationship!” BTW, kudos on keeping your relationship going longer than the mean of 1.5 years for gay men.

But they’re not dropping like flies from nasty diseases and creating a huge public health burden that everyone else is expected to pay for. But you’ll find my position against heterosexual promiscuity to be consistent.

[quote
but many gays live healthy, productive lives…
[/quote]

Super. See above.

MOrmons believe that all gays go to hell? How terribly sad.

[quote]
Fortunately, the telic conflict was resolved once I realized that my belief was based on fairy tales rather than facts.[/quote]

Well, thankfully the APA is more gracious than you in its report. Do read it.

132

It doesn’t surprise me that you fail to see the hypocrisy in yourself, but let’s leave it at that.

If you acknowledge that there are gays who live healthy, productive lives then you are not justified in labeling homosexuality as something inherently “bad for you”. Sexual irresponsibility is inherently “bad for you”, homosexuality is not.

Mormons, along with many other fundamentalist Christians, believe that living the “gay lifestyle” will land you outside of god’s presence for eternity. I agree it is sad, but many religious gays spend their lives miserable because of their inability to achieve telic congruence.

To the credit of the APA, they recognize that however misguided, many people do have this belief and it would be professionally irresponsible to abandon these people.

However, it is also professionally irresponsible to mislead people in the false promise that they can change their sexual orientation. The best solution, for those that have a religious aversion to their sexual orientation, is either celibacy or preferably to help them find a religion that doesn’t feed the telic conflict.

133

[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
As the homo agenda gets pushed and real women get brainwashed into acting like men, then more and more hetero men will go nutz, like this guy.

Forlife, the homo agenda you promote is insane and leads to destruction, like this shit.

Explain to me again how homosexuality has anything to do with this nutjob killing women? My understanding is that he was a straight guy who hated women because he couldn’t get any action.[/quote]

When gender roles get perverted, then there is less liklihood of finding a traditional man or woman. Seems this man was meeting women who were more like men, aggressive and unnatural. He couldn’t meet a real woman so went nuts (especially when he saw women going for low lifes and scum).

134

So the shooter couldn’t find a straight woman because he was surrounded by so many lesbians? Gotcha.

135

[quote]forlife wrote:
So the shooter couldn’t find a straight woman because he was surrounded by so many lesbians? Gotcha.[/quote]

No. Women are here to be supportive of men. They’ve been taught however that such is false and proceed to act like most modern men – shallow and promiscuous. The women then wind up bitter and alone, petting their cats. And often, finding no joy in women (because women are now pale reflections of modern ‘men’), the men often search for love…from other…men…

136

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
forlife wrote:
So the shooter couldn’t find a straight woman because he was surrounded by so many lesbians? Gotcha.

No. Women are here to be supportive of men. They’ve been taught however that such is false and proceed to act like most modern men – shallow and promiscuous. The women then wind up bitter and alone, petting their cats. And often, finding no joy in women (because women are now pale reflections of modern ‘men’), the men often search for love…from other…men…[/quote]

You’re not even trying anymore, are you.

137

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
As the homo agenda gets pushed and real women get brainwashed into acting like men, then more and more hetero men will go nutz, like this guy.

Forlife, the homo agenda you promote is insane and leads to destruction, like this shit.

Explain to me again how homosexuality has anything to do with this nutjob killing women? My understanding is that he was a straight guy who hated women because he couldn’t get any action.

When gender roles get perverted, then there is less liklihood of finding a traditional man or woman. Seems this man was meeting women who were more like men, aggressive and unnatural. He couldn’t meet a real woman so went nuts (especially when he saw women going for low lifes and scum).

[/quote]

LOL. Great troll post HH!

138

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
No. Women are here to be supportive of men. They’ve been taught however that such is false and proceed to act like most modern men – shallow and promiscuous. The women then wind up bitter and alone, petting their cats. And often, finding no joy in women (because women are now pale reflections of modern ‘men’), the men often search for love…from other…men…
[/quote]

I don’t know who’s more whack, you or the shooter. It’s a tossup, seriously.

139

[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
No. Women are here to be supportive of men. They’ve been taught however that such is false and proceed to act like most modern men – shallow and promiscuous. The women then wind up bitter and alone, petting their cats. And often, finding no joy in women (because women are now pale reflections of modern ‘men’), the men often search for love…from other…men…

I don’t know who’s more whack, you or the shooter. It’s a tossup, seriously.[/quote]

LOL! If you knew how much effort goes into serious trolling, you’d shudder. I’ve kind of mellowed lately, not planting things in the female sections or on other boards. But I’ll never top Zap Branigan and his raid on a quilting board (search it here). Pure and classic T-Nation! And I sure do miss the Zapster.

140

I thought this fit the topic nicely.

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=155

[quote]One reason why conversion might be so difficult is that the brains of gays may be different from their straight counterparts. For example, a couple of studies have been done that show that the brains of gay people are different than those of straight people. And that gay people respond to pheromones differently than straight people.

This isn’t surprising, sexual attraction resides in the brain. But where do these changes come from? Are they destined by genes, is it something in the environment or a combination of the two?

The best evidence points to the environment and genes both playing a role.[/quote]

He then talks a bit about twin studies, very interesting stuff.

[quote] A number of studies have looked at homosexuality in twins, all with similar results. For example, in one study, if one identical twin was gay, the other was also gay 50% of the time. If they were fraternal twins, they were both gay 22% of the time. And if one was adopted, the chances fell to 11%.
…
This strongly suggests that there is a genetic component - there is something in their genes that makes them more likely to be gay. Genetics, though, isn’t everything.

If it were, then identical twins would both be gay 100% of the time. And this clearly isn’t the case.

And if it were all environment, then identical twins would both be gay as often as fraternal twins. Again, this isn’t the situation.

So the interplay of environment and genes probably results in homosexuality. By environment, I don’t just mean how someone is raised (although that is sometimes part of it). I mean the effect the environment can have on how the brain is hardwired very early on.[/quote]

Now I know someone’s going to say that twins are identical, so it must be a choice, but identical twins may come from the same egg/sperm combo, however from womb development on, their environments can be different. Apparently, even in the womb, one can receive more nutrients than the other.

It’s interesting. Height is also something that is both genetic and environmental. I work with a girl who is an identical twin and she’s actually a few inches shorter than her twin sister. They grew up in the same house, same schools, etc. Could have been anything in the environment that she was exposed to and her sister was not, virus, bacteria, radiation, worse nutrition, etc…

Identical twins genes not identical:

Why Identical twins are different:

My grandmother and her identical twin look a lot different now at 83 than they did as teens. One married, had kids and quit smoking early in life (30s) while the other never married, smoked into her late 60’s, early 70s, and now has emphysema. She’s also the one I mentioned earlier who we’re pretty sure is a homosexual.