[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Into the belly of the beast.
…
[/quote]
Good post.
You will have many detractors probably trying to make counter arguments, because not everybody sees things that way, but I agree with a few key points in what you said.
"…cause they have all these drugs that make you feel better like Zoloft, Prozac…I just wanna have one drug to encompass it all. We will call it Fuckidol…
yes…i dont feel anything i dont care for anything …Fuckidol…Im sitting in my own shit, I dont care…Fuckidol…But they usually have some strange side effect like - ‘Warning may cause artificial insemination’"
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Psychobiology is completely valid and legitimate, I agree. Unfortunately, mainstream psychology has more to do with cloaking cultural indoctrination under the guise of “medicine” than any real scientific endeavor.[/quote]
The field of psychology, in and of itself, is entirely legitimate. Practitioners are the problem, and for years there has been a growing separation between oblivious practitioners and unkind academics.
Because certain people in the mental health field do not keep up on research, and because many researchers are incapable of treating patients themselves, does not invalidate the field. The players are shitty, not the sport. Psychiatry, for most medical schools, is not a priority. There are vague state standards as to who can be a practicing “counselor.” Life coaches are a plague, shills with no academic experience masquerading as mental health professionals. The field has been decimated by internal strife, but the science rings true, and it’s an undeniable fact that you could file under “really fucking obvious” that most people with any form of psychiatric disorder would be better off under the care of a trained, responsible, well researched mental health professional.
Many of the people you’re speaking of do not have doctorates. Actually, I’d go so far as to say the large majority do not. I would doubt many of these people even have masters in behavioral or clinical psychology. In Florida you can get a bachelors and open a practice. There are still good people in the field, the science in the field is still good, it is overrun by retards who think because they listen to all their friends problems they’ll make a great psychologist even if they have no understanding of the academic sides of neuroscience.
No disagreement. There are few things I hate on this Earth more than videos like “The Secret” or people who try and veil simple facts in some money making spiritual or scientific system. There are people, however, who require indulgence to get them to a point where they’re ready to rebuild self-esteem, and I’d rather have those people indulged by trained professionals than the greeter at Walmart.
Oh man, I’d love to see some statistics from a respected source to back this up.
Laughable statement. We haven’t even scratched the surface in understanding the complexity behind mental illness.
‘Correcting’ the neurotransmitters (through correcting nutritional deficiencies or using prescription medication) implies a restoration of normal levels, while the reality is that it’s generally an attempt to compensate for sensitivity of neurotransmitter production. SSRIs provide what they call a non-specific psychological effect, but the effect is beneficial, which is what makes it useful for various ‘disorders.’
…
No, I’m sorry. Unfortunately you’re incorrect. The reason you’re incorrect is that you are promoting under number 1 that a chemical imbalance is the final answer. The train of thinking behind chemical imbalances isn’t wrong, but it’s not complete by any means, and it’s not interpreted entirely correctly.
Chicken or the egg. Did it lead to low self esteem, or did self esteem create it? Probably both.
All of them? No, not all of them. The majority of them. The majority of them as defined by the fact that the majority of people being treated by mental health professionals have ‘soft’ disorders, specifically generalized anxiety disorder, social phobias, other generalized negligible (as far as I’m concerned) disorders that don’t even have definition.
Oh good, a movie and a book showing that through the power of positive thinking you too can cure an entire ward of psychiatric patients! The quality of that example in a scientific discussion astonishing. Commendable, really.
[quote]You know what kind of drugs would really be of use to the “mentally ill”?
Anabolic Steroids.
That and weight training.
That’s how you build self esteem. That’s how you give people a reason to live.[/quote]
Passions are difficult to define. Not everyone enjoys weight training. I’d argue most athletes don’t even enjoy weight training; they enjoy athletics, and weight training increases their athletic ability. Plenty of athletes stop hitting the weights when they’re done with sports because they never liked lifting in the first place. Applying your preferences to a large group of people is cutting a pretty wide swath, and it’s pretty much entirely fucking useless.
[quote]There is one class of mental illness which is widely considered to be “untreatable” in the psychological field. Naturally, that would be psychopathy, sociopathy, anti-social personality Disorder (APD), and all it’s variants.
And why do you think that is? It’s precisely because these are the only so-called “mental disorders” in which the “patient” suffers from an ELEVATED self-esteem (indeed, a “grossly-overinflated sense of self worth”, according to the literature), rather than the REVERSE of this condition.[/quote]
Widely considered untreatable by psychologists because people who refuse any form of counseling are literally impossible to treat, yes.
Are you saying it’s impossible to treat a bipolar 1 who believes he’s perfectly okay? Because… I… Somehow I don’t think you’ve thought your cunning hypothesis all the way out.
There are the weak, and there are the broken. An implication that the broken, people who have physically or mentally been tortured or had a retardation of development, demand to be punished is ridiculous at best and almost so cruel as to make me believe that you either don’t know what you’re saying or you’re purposely trolling.
Read a book written by a psychologist? When psychologists act primarily as direct care professionals or conduct soft science social research? The field you call a joke science is to be defined by a joke scientist? The joke scientist, when psychologists receive minimal training in the biological function of the mind compared to psychiatrists, neuroscientists and neurobiologists?
Read a book written by a man who founded a laughable group with SCIENTOLOGISTS, and who has been affiliated with Scientology for years?
He raises moral points that need to be raised. The professional community of psychology has some of the weakest standards of any major profession in this country. As psychology becomes a more popular major, and as masters and graduate degrees become less desired to fill large state and local positions, the field is diluted by people who do not understand the science or arguably even fully comprehend the practices behind the field.
DSM is… a problem. Generalized standards on the cluster of mental illnesses that do not require significant modifications or ‘improvements’ to the chemistry of the brain are moronic.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m SPD under DSM. High five for outmoded, fallacious diagnostic tools!
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
There is no other form of “mental illness” in existence. Period. It is a myth.
There are no “mental patients” with normal or high self esteem!
[/quote]
That’s utter bullshit. Maybe depressed patients have self esteem issues, but when I’m manic, I’m a fucking GOD. I can smell things miles away, I can see details that you can’t imagine, I hear every note before it’s played, I don’t have to sleep, I can fuck 8 times a day every day, I can control the whether, I can think 20 times faster than anyone else. My mental illness doesn’t cause me to have low self esteem. I LOVE being manic. It is the greatest thing in the world. When I wasn’t manic, I didn’t have low self esteem, I was just waiting to be manic again.
You clearly are a world class douche who has no clue what you are talking about.
You honestly just used a work of fiction to lecture us on mental illness?
A key few points:
There is a difference between a therapist or counselor and a psychologist.
There is a difference between a practitioner and a scientist, although most clinical psychology programs are based on the practitioner-scientist model.
Clinical psychologists are not the only type of psychologists. And recall, counselors and therapists are not psychologists at all.
Psychology has produced virtually everything we know about how people function. You might think it’s not legitimate, but your opinion doesn’t matter. Psychologists were instrumental in the Allied victory in WWII, and the military is still a huge employer of psychologists. Moreover, why don’t you look at how many fortune 500 companies have staff psychologists or regularly hire consultants?
Your views on mental illness are unrealistic. Honestly, it’s obvious you’ve never been around mentally ill people. You mention psychopathy as a mental illness, pick up a copy of the DSM-IV TR and show me where it talks about psychopathy. You seem to think that everyone that has a mental illness has mild depression. I actually agree with you that depressed individuals are over-medicated, and that they’d often be better treated with improved diet, physical activity, and better relationship patterns. But schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are not depression, and you can’t treat them as if they were.
You also have no understanding at all about the main psychological paradigms, so, frankly, most of what you say is just so dead wrong that I don’t even know where to start with my criticism. So I’ll just ask the question, what makes you think you are such an expert? Honestly, I’m curious about where all this is coming from.
Talking on a couch sure as hell helped me. Either that or I just learned to mask my problems with weightlifting. 'Cause after 20 rep squats, you don’t give a rats cockbag whats wrong with your life.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
P.S. You should be honored to know that you’ve just finished reading a post that was written by a person who fits nearly all of the criteria outlined in DSM-IV and other sources for “Antisocial Personality Disorder”. That makes me a state-sanctioned Psychopath, so I must know what I’m talking about. Pay attention, kids.[/quote]
Self diagnosed, right?
No flaws there.
Good luck with that.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
There is a difference between a therapist or counselor and a psychologist.
Clinical psychologists are not the only type of psychologists. And recall, counselors and therapists are not psychologists at all.[/quote]
Eh. A psychologist can go by counselor, and a psychiatrist can go by therapist. Generally ‘counseling’ positions require a ba or a masters (preferrably, and it would be a better standard) in psychology.
I’ll actually agree with him that I don’t like DSM, specifically Axis II and Axis IV. And I guess parts of Axis I. The interpretation required implies that the professional must be… professional. It’s supposed to be treated as a convenient list that can help in the process of diagnosis. And there can be no doubt that there are many people in the field who have stopped using it as such, and are basing entire diagnosis around what is supposed to be a ‘helpful’ text. There has been a dilution in the quality of trained clinicians, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
I actually considered going into psychology for a long time. My mother is a clinical psychologist and she’s finally getting through her doctorate. The stories I’ve heard of people she’s worked with has kept me out of the field entirely. I have no doubt that I would be a very good practitioner, but the shit you have to deal with and the growing rift between researchers and people in direct care makes it seem less than worthwhile to me.
[quote]Dweezil wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
There is a difference between a therapist or counselor and a psychologist.
Clinical psychologists are not the only type of psychologists. And recall, counselors and therapists are not psychologists at all.
Eh. A psychologist can go by counselor, and a psychiatrist can go by therapist. Generally ‘counseling’ positions require a ba or a masters (preferrably, and it would be a better standard) in psychology.
[/quote]
I need to reword that. A psychologist can go by whatever he/she wants, but being a counselor or therapist does not make you a psychologist. Having a degree in psychology and treating patients does not make you a psychologist. Being a registered psychologist makes you a psychologist. Maybe regulation is weak where you are, but here, it takes a fair bit of work to get registered (Usually a few years after you finish your PhD)
Again, this is region-specific. I’ll add, though, that I’ve never met a psychologist that didn’t have a lot of complaints about the DSM.
[quote]
I actually considered going into psychology for a long time. My mother is a clinical psychologist and she’s finally getting through her doctorate. The stories I’ve heard of people she’s worked with has kept me out of the field entirely.
I have no doubt that I would be a very good practitioner, but the shit you have to deal with and the growing rift between researchers and people in direct care makes it seem less than worthwhile to me.[/quote]
That’s silly. Your mom having had bad experiences as a clinician doesn’t reflect on any other branch of psychology. I’m in the Canadian Psychological Association, as are many of my colleagues.
Like I said, I’m in a business school. As for a rift between practitioners and researchers, I think every school in Canada is based on the scientist-practitioner model. If it’s different where you are, you can’t use that to make criticisms of psychology as a whole.
[quote]doogie wrote:
You honestly just used a work of fiction to lecture us on mental illness? [/quote]
I’m guessing that NP gets his mental health advice from L. Ron Hubbard. With a side of Ken Kesey and Jack Nicholson. He may be a moron, but hey, he’s got high self esteem and proper chemical balance.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
You know what kind of drugs would really be of use to the “mentally ill”?
Anabolic Steroids.
That and weight training.
That’s how you build self esteem. That’s how you give people a reason to live.
[/quote]
I read this and actually said out loud “Oh for fucks sake”. Obviously that’s what gives YOU self esteem and YOU a reason to live. By thinking that it will work for everyone shows how ignorant you are.
Yes ignorant. You wasted all the time typing out that shit and your only reference was to a fiction book.
Lol - weightlifting giving you a ‘reason to live’. If that’s what gets you up in the morning then you have a pretty limited and sad life.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Into the belly of the beast.
John K wrote:
What you’re missing here is that there are some branches of psychology that study biological processes, such as how sensation and perception are captured from the external world by the nervous system, interpreted by the brain, etc. (See psychophysics Psychophysics - Wikipedia )
Psychobiology is completely valid and legitimate, I agree. Unfortunately, mainstream psychology has more to do with cloaking cultural indoctrination under the guise of “medicine” than any real scientific endeavor.
CuffDunk wrote:
There is a lot more to psychology than Freud style lie-on-the-couch therapy, which is almost never practiced anymore.
Which is a shame, since Freud and the other pioneers weren’t operating as shills for the State and medical establishment, unlike today’s practitioners.
CuffDunk wrote:
There is a lot of solid and useful information to be had about the human mind, and most of it comes from clinically controlled studies combined with field work.
I don’t consider that type of material to be part of “psychology”. I consider it philosophy, plain and simple. It’s modern day philosophy on living your life. There is no need to drape it with a pseudo-scientific label. It’s purely subjective and it always will be. I won’t deny that listening to various peoples’ takes on how to live life can be quite fascinating. Once turned into law, however, it becomes idiocy and hypocrisy.
Qualay wrote:
I guess if a psychiatrist can give a suicidal patien t drugs for a little while, help them figure themselves out, take them off drugs and get them back on track then they are completely useless.
wait
no
The question has to be asked: Useless or useful to WHO? Who benefits from having the formerly-suicidal patient continue living and (in all likelyhood) become a prescription drug addict? It’s rare for psychological “cures” to be limited to single intervention. More frequently, once you’re in, you’re there for life.
Mufasa wrote:
Feed them Krill and Coconut Oil…that should work…
Yes. Either that, or help them build the individual fortitude to lift themselves out of their miserable states.
Mufasa wrote:
(Do you SEE how all this self-righteous dribble sounds, and how impractical it is when dealing with the care of millions of the mentally ill?)
No, I don’t see that at all. “Mentally ill” is a term that can only legitimately describe one of two things:
or
There is no other form of “mental illness” in existence. Period. It is a myth.
There are no “mental patients” with normal or high self esteem! ALL of them are simply individuals who lack the mental and emotional fortitude to confront life and society. See the movie or read the book titled, “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”, in which the inner strength of the charismatic protagonist essentially “cured” the rest of the patients in the ward by giving them the courage to start living again.
You know what kind of drugs would really be of use to the “mentally ill”?
Anabolic Steroids.
That and weight training.
That’s how you build self esteem. That’s how you give people a reason to live.
There is one class of mental illness which is widely considered to be “untreatable” in the psychological field. Naturally, that would be psychopathy, sociopathy, anti-social personality Disorder (APD), and all it’s variants.
And why do you think that is? It’s precisely because these are the only so-called “mental disorders” in which the “patient” suffers from an ELEVATED self-esteem (indeed, a “grossly-overinflated sense of self worth”, according to the literature), rather than the REVERSE of this condition.
So what’s the lesson here? It’s that it’s impossible to “treat” a person who doesn’t believe that there’s anything wrong with him. The textbooks clearly state as much in the case of sociopathic criminals – they “refuse treatment, insisting that they haven’t done anything wrong and there is no reason for them to feel guilty”.
On the other hand, it’s the easiest thing in the world to make a victim out of a weak person. Indeed, the weak practically demand to be punished, or somehow enslaved. Victimized, in other words.
And that’s the joke science of psychology, in nutshell. One massive cult of victimization.
Read “The Myth of Mental Illness”, written by Thomas S. Szasz, a PSYCHOLOGIST(!)
P.S. You should be honored to know that you’ve just finished reading a post that was written by a person who fits nearly all of the criteria outlined in DSM-IV and other sources for “Antisocial Personality Disorder”. That makes me a state-sanctioned Psychopath, so I must know what I’m talking about. Pay attention, kids.[/quote]
Most ignorant post of the year.