Al this talk about protein is just a distraction from the government to make us forget about our real problem… pirates. According to government statistics…1 in every 5 people have piratism.
[quote]baretta wrote:
Al this talk about protein is just a distraction from the government to make us forget about our real problem… pirates. According to government statistics…1 in every 5 people have piratism.
[/quote]
Now are you talking about music pirating pirates or Maddox type pirates?
[quote]carld57 wrote:
baretta wrote:
Al this talk about protein is just a distraction from the government to make us forget about our real problem… pirates. According to government statistics…1 in every 5 people have piratism.
Now are you talking about music pirating pirates or Maddox type pirates?
[/quote]
Johnny Depp Pirates.
Thanks for saying somethinmg smart angel.Thats what I said.Protein is bad,but too much of anything can be bad.
[quote]Angelbutt wrote:
Wow, look how touchy everyone gets with this subject.
Foolishness comes in believing that protein is bad AND in believing that it can never be bad.
Some clarifying points:
-As of now, protein has not been proven to cause liver and kidney damage. HOWEVER, it has not been disproven yet either. No one knows exactly how much protein or how long it will take a high protein diet to induce damage. So while the idea that protein harms the liver and kidneys isn’t fact, it’s not necessarily fiction, either.
-Protein has been strongly implicated in calcium loss from bones. This idea is not a myth, but many questions are still unanswered. Like with kidney and liver damage, the exact amounts are unclear. Also, because protein has been shown to enhance calcium absorption as well as excretion, scientists aren’t sure if the loss is related more to an off-balance ratio of protein to calcium in the diet.
-High protein diets have been implicated in higher rates of heart disease and cancer. Yet, let’s look below the surface. High protein diets usually mean high intakes of meat and cheese (Cheese consumption has risen drastically over the years) at the expense of fruits and vegetables. Meat and cheese are high in saturated fat, and if you don’t eat enough fruits and vegetables, you don’t consume the antioxidants and vitamins essential for warding off cancer. Furthermore, improperly prepared meat (i.e. burnt) does contain carcinogens. So, the connection between protein and disease is not direct; it’s not the protein that makes people sick, but rather the substances, or lack thereof, that accompany a high protein diet.
-It’s true that humans do not need a lot of protein. We use it very efficiently. NEED and OPTIMIZATION are different however. Optimization can refer to athletic performance, weight loss via satiety, etc…In the latter instances, for some people the increases are not that much - 10% to 20%. The desire for optimization has blown the “need” for more protein out of proportion. What result are Atkins dieters and athletes chugging protein powders all day. A little more than average is usually beneficial, but huge amounts are generally unnecessary, and as was stated before, POTENTIALLY harmful.
Protein is not a wonder-food. It is a chemical substance just like anything else that you ingest. It has its benefits and its side effects. We just have yet to detail those side-effects and establish appropriate limits.
Don’t stop eating protein, but don’t make love to it, either.[/quote]
Why aren’t our government prtecting us?In my opinion,they want us sick.Why?So we can buy more medication/drugs that don’t work and kill the friendly flora in our bodies thus making us get sick.Our government is corrupt,and the FDA.We’ll never have a cure for cancer! Why?If there was the FDA,Pharmaceutical ,american heart,cancer,asthma,medical association would be out of business.Thats my opinion why our government doesn’t give a fuck.It’s all about the money.Now say it with me.
[quote]Miserere wrote:
The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Like I said.Too much of ANYTHING can be bad for you.
I agree, but some things should just be banned outright, like dihydrogen monoxide:
Why aren’t our governments protecting us from it!?
Maybe Canada could take the first step, they seem to be good at banning evil stuff like drugs and protein powders.[/quote]
High amounts of any nutrient intake are only harmful if they are rapidly increased without periodically allowing your organs time to adapt.
In fact 2 of my friends had kidney problems after jumping to 350+ grams/day from an previously unrecorded(seemingly low) protein consumption rate.
The smaller of the two had to be hospitalized and place under some sort of contiuos dialysis until his kidneys could recover. They also were extremely dehydrated even drinking 6-8 liters of water/gatorade daily.
~sanctus
some of grim_reaper’s “finer” work:
"I would recommend fasting.I bought a juice man juicer and went on a 3 week juice fast.I was about 15 at th time.I wasn’t fat,just had some weight to lose.Like 15 pounds of baby fat. I didn’t count calories,probably drank 4000 calories everyday.
I went on a juice fast though.I lost water weight and fat,and took amio acid pills and colon cleansing pills with it.Didn’t lose ANY muscles.My body wasn’t digesting food,so it was eating up all of my bodies dead cells.You have protein stores.Enough to last for a whole month on a fast,so don’t worry about losing muscle.I lost 30 pounds.
The funny thing is the weight never came back.It somehow reset my bodies set weight point.I can tell you from first hand experience that it works.I don’t have asthma anymore,or thyroid health problems anymore.It works.Just focus on resting and maybe light exercises like walking.It’s great and I felt good.Thats what i can tell you about fasting."
this troll has been around the block before.
[quote]The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Why aren’t our government prtecting us?In my opinion,they want us sick.Why?So we can buy more medication/drugs that don’t work and kill the friendly flora in our bodies thus making us get sick.Our government is corrupt,and the FDA.We’ll never have a cure for cancer! Why?If there was the FDA,Pharmaceutical ,american heart,cancer,asthma,medical association would be out of business.Thats my opinion why our government doesn’t give a fuck.It’s all about the money.Now say it with me.
Miserere wrote:
The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Like I said.Too much of ANYTHING can be bad for you.
I agree, but some things should just be banned outright, like dihydrogen monoxide:
Why aren’t our governments protecting us from it!?
Maybe Canada could take the first step, they seem to be good at banning evil stuff like drugs and protein powders.
[/quote]
It’s impossible to cure cancer.
It is possible, though, to isolate common mutations that cause cancerous growth and aim to develope a system of correcting or eliminating distinctly mutated cells.
I do agree that even if a system was available to identify and relatively quickly specify a cure for any given type of cancer, it would likely receive little funding unless the funding came from a company with a very broad patent on the technology.
[quote]The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Why aren’t our government prtecting us?In my opinion,they want us sick.Why?So we can buy more medication/drugs that don’t work and kill the friendly flora in our bodies thus making us get sick.Our government is corrupt,and the FDA.We’ll never have a cure for cancer! Why?If there was the FDA,Pharmaceutical ,american heart,cancer,asthma,medical association would be out of business.Thats my opinion why our government doesn’t give a fuck.It’s all about the money.Now say it with me.
Miserere wrote:
The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Like I said.Too much of ANYTHING can be bad for you.
I agree, but some things should just be banned outright, like dihydrogen monoxide:
Why aren’t our governments protecting us from it!?
Maybe Canada could take the first step, they seem to be good at banning evil stuff like drugs and protein powders.
[/quote]
Yeah. Scary how the government won’t do anything about dihydrogen monoxide exposure. It is a scientific fact that every year numerous unwitting children are exposed to fatal doses of dhmo. This is unacceptable.
Anyway Grim what are your thoughts on the dihydrogen monoxide issue? Should children be allowed to take it at all? Only elite lifters? Or should it be banned completely?
[quote]The3toedSloth wrote:
How about George Foreman? He could give you spiritual / nutritional advice.
[/quote]
And then he could whoop my ass.
As long as he calls me “my son George,” I would do just about anything that man says.
Dan “Now that’s a man of the cloth” McVicker
[quote]stonesanctus wrote:
High amounts of any nutrient intake are only harmful if they are rapidly increased without periodically allowing your organs time to adapt.
In fact 2 of my friends had kidney problems after jumping to 350+ grams/day from an previously unrecorded(seemingly low) protein consumption rate.
The smaller of the two had to be hospitalized and place under some sort of contiuos dialysis until his kidneys could recover. They also were extremely dehydrated even drinking 6-8 liters of water/gatorade daily.
~sanctus
[/quote]
If they were extremely dehydrated, their protein intake had nothing to do with this. Their lack of fluids did regardless of how much they told you they drank.
I know people who follow the halleluiah diet and also “spread the good news”. It’s almost like a cult. My mother in law was sucked into this load of crappola a few years ago (she doesn’t do the diet, but she believes it is the healthiest way to live) and so I have often had to endure her nutritional evangelism. I have even several chapters of the book (purely for entertainment).
One actually argument in the book is that gorillas are big and strong but you don’t see them eating protein, all they eat is bamboo. Therefore, human beings should also be able to get big and strong by eating only bamboo.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
One actually argument in the book is that gorillas are big and strong but you don’t see them eating protein, all they eat is bamboo. Therefore, human beings should also be able to get big and strong by eating only bamboo.[/quote]
I love that reasoning. Now if only I could eat about 70 lbs of bamboo a day I’d be as strong as a gorilla.
I also love how they disregard the studies on rats which show we need protein because rats are so different to humans - but when it comes to any animal studies which support their ravings, suddenly we’re no different to vegetarian oxen and elephants.
this has been stated before, but i’d like to emphasize the point that anything to excess can be harmful. take water for example. you can die by drinking too much water (hyponatremia or water intoxication).
bottom line: sure you can live without getting protein from meat/dairy, and yes at some point, too much protein can be bad for you. what the extremes are is the question. also, increased protein intake for increasing muscle mass has been shown to be effective, i don’t think anyone can deny that.
[quote]carld57 wrote:
baretta wrote:
Al this talk about protein is just a distraction from the government to make us forget about our real problem… pirates. According to government statistics…1 in every 5 people have piratism.
Now are you talking about music pirating pirates or Maddox type pirates?
[/quote]
Yarr.
[quote]Z-Man wrote:
It’s on the Internet, it must be true.[/quote]
died laughing
and this was talked about on another bodybuilding site
basically it said you have a higher percent of a chemiacl that can be bad for you kidneys,and can be misinterpted as some illness.Also if 20/30g a day(correct me if i read it wrong) is too much then shouldnt we have all died around…childhood?,seriously
Lol…to the forest!!!
[quote]MookJong wrote:
JPBear wrote:
One actually argument in the book is that gorillas are big and strong but you don’t see them eating protein, all they eat is bamboo. Therefore, human beings should also be able to get big and strong by eating only bamboo.
I love that reasoning. Now if only I could eat about 70 lbs of bamboo a day I’d be as strong as a gorilla.
I also love how they disregard the studies on rats which show we need protein because rats are so different to humans - but when it comes to any animal studies which support their ravings, suddenly we’re no different to vegetarian oxen and elephants.[/quote]
After reading this thread I have lost about half of the respect I once had for the T-Nation members.
Instead of acting mature and level-headed, you immediately launch into your “What the fuck were you thinking?!” mode, getting so heated up twenty one shots couldn’t cool you down.
Instead of considering someone’s view outside of yours, you immediately assume they are wrong and “a kid.”
To recap my first post:
Originally supporting the traditional lifting views, but all of you immediately get so defensive it was ridiculous.
[To clarify this thread, let me say that I’m not some lunatic vegetarian. I don’t have anything against protein. I eat tons of protein.]
/end of discussion
[quote]TheArrow wrote:
After reading this thread I have lost about half of the respect I once had for the T-Nation members.
[…]
Instead of considering someone’s view outside of yours, you immediately assume they are wrong and “a kid.”[/quote]
OK, here are my views. I am not a nutrition expert, so I can only use what little common sense I have.
First, personal experience:
Since I started eating “clean” and have kept my protein above 150gr/day (I weigh around 80kg) I have drastically improved my health. My cholesterol, which had always been high, is now VERY low, with an excellent HDL/LDL ratio. I have also gained strength in the gym and some muscle to go with it (but who cares about that, huh?).
I am healthier now than I was at 16; I know because I have the bloodtests. However, none of this seems to help me validate my point in front of my fiancee, or indeed in front of any of my vegetarian and/or Californian friends who berate me for consuming “so much” protein (and let’s not get into the whole MRP thing!).
Second, here are a few things that smell fishy to me (in no particular order):
-
Cats living off cooked food suffered all sorts of horrible diseases vs cats living off the same, but raw, food who lived happily ever after. Cats have always eaten raw food, humans have been cooking food for thousands of years, surely that (evolution) makes a difference.
-
There is a difference between dead atoms and alive atoms in food. Due to my profession, I know a bit about atoms; atoms are neither alive nor dead. Maybe certain molecules start breaking up when a body dies, but this has nothing to do with them being alive nor dead. Meat does indeed decompose after the body it belonged to ceases to live; that’s why we eat fresh meat, and cook it before the use-by date.
-
They keep refering to meat diets as if they were composed solely of meat. I don’t think any of us meat-eaters at T-Nation advocate this! I’m sure that people eating mostly meat (with the accompanying saturated fats) will die early of any number of maladies caused by such a bad diet, which is why we eat plenty of vegetables and good fats and carbs. They never specify what these “meat eaters” included in the studies were eating.
-
When talking about vegetarian athletes, most of them are endurance athletes, i.e., athletes with little muscle mass. Of the few they mention that are strength athletes, they again fail to give us dietary information. Mike Mahler is a vegetarian, but I doubt he’s built his impressive physique on 20-30gr of protein a day! They seem to equate being vegetarian with eating low amounts of protein, which is not necessarily true.
-
Bone loss? Do strength athletes (even recreational ones) lose or gain bone mass? I’d say gain. I also seem to remember that the amount of calcium lost from protein can be recovered by ingesting 1 spoonfull of milk a day; is this true? Somebody else also mentioned it earlier. Anybody got references?
-
Protein is a negative calorie food. Oh come on, I’m sure that’s incorrect. Don’t we get something like 70% of the energy protein contains? However, they don’t mention that most vegetables and many fruits truely are “negative calorie” foods.
-
Maybe I didn’t make this point clear enough previously: are meat eaters unhealthy in general because of the fats and bad carbs they usually eat with their meats, or because of the protein? I want diet information for all those people dying of protein-induced cancer!
-
You don’t need to eat complete protein in each meal. This is interesting, and I’d really like to know if it’s true or not.
-
Gorillas are 30 times stronger than we are, and all they eat are bamboo shoots and fruit. Gorillas also have different muscle insertion points (like all apes) which gives them better leverage; their CNS is most likely more efficient at providing strength, rather than precision, as is ours. As pointed out before, they also have all day to lie around and eat, we don’t!
-
“Eating meat – or protein in general – does not give you strength, energy or stamina” Who said that anyway!? I’ve never heard that defended by anyone!
-
It is erroneous to believe that we need a lot of protein, because the studies we base this conclusion on were conducted on rats, not humans.
-
Cooked foods are bad for us, because it was proven by studies conducted on cats.
That’s it for now, I need to get my zeds. It’s leg day tomorrow. 
You’ve been reading too much Kevin Trudeau. Don’t stress yourself out, that causes cancer faster than anything 
[quote]The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Why aren’t our government prtecting us?In my opinion,they want us sick.Why?So we can buy more medication/drugs that don’t work and kill the friendly flora in our bodies thus making us get sick.Our government is corrupt,and the FDA.We’ll never have a cure for cancer! Why?If there was the FDA,Pharmaceutical ,american heart,cancer,asthma,medical association would be out of business.Thats my opinion why our government doesn’t give a fuck.It’s all about the money.Now say it with me.
Miserere wrote:
The_Grim_Reaper wrote:
Like I said.Too much of ANYTHING can be bad for you.
I agree, but some things should just be banned outright, like dihydrogen monoxide:
Why aren’t our governments protecting us from it!?
Maybe Canada could take the first step, they seem to be good at banning evil stuff like drugs and protein powders.
[/quote]