Proper Way to Eat Low Carb?

Nutrition
44

[quote]cueball wrote:
Alright, settle down. Your coming off a little smug now. Please don’t condescend and assume anyone is parroting. I am coming at this discussion from MY OWN experience. [/quote]

My apologies. My intention is never to condescend, but rather to challenge nutritional dogma on this website.

The main point Andersons and I are trying to make is that we have observed a lot of unhappy very low carb dieters, ourselves included. And after adding more carbs back in our diets, we have felt worlds better and still gotten results.

The question we are posing is: is it worth losing 1.5 pounds per week and feeling like crap? Or is losing 1.3 pounds per week and feeling OK a good substitute? Again, neither Andersons nor I are proposing a high carb diet, but rather more sane alternatives which we feel are lacking on the forums.

Also, both of us recognize that some do very well on very low carb. What is important to recognize is that the articles written on T-Nation are, for the most part, for beginners. Individuals who train a lot and/or have been in this game for awhile have other considerations.

You and I are in complete accord on this. Only thing is, most people on the T-Nation forum get the majority of their information from this website. As a result of the majority of people working on the same nutritional paradigm, there is little “outside the box” thinking and problem-solving. BTW, this is not an attack!!!

Again, my apologies if this is how I have come off. This is certainly not my intention.

I would also like to reiterate that what I’m saying is about more than science, but rather a subjective feel. I.E. - how’s your mood, etc?

For the record, all science that I’ve brought in to this conversation is first based on observation and experience. I am of the belief that science should inform us, not dictate to us.

I agree. People should always remain open, and this is my primary objection to dogma… always :slight_smile:

-Stu

45

[quote]andersons wrote:
Aside from this discussion, that attitude is NOT prevalent on this site. In fact, in countless logs and even articles people describe how crappy they feel on their diets and seem to just accept it as a fact of dieting. I can’t think of even one instance where anyone was encouraged to add carbs to their diets because he felt so crappy. Of course, I haven’t read every article or thread on the site, but I can’t remember reading any cautions like the one you stated above either. [/quote]

This has been my observation exactly.

46

[quote]cueball wrote:
I think a lot of people that are complaining about their diets are feeling that way because of restricted calories, not necessarily lack of carbs. Sure, some do complain about those symptoms because their body isn’t responding positively to that approach. [/quote]

This is true. Caloric restriction is not easy.

If it wasn’t clear, I’d love to clarify my argument: very low carb is not a big no-no across the board. Micro, macro, and personal contexts should be taken in to consideration. Is the person VERY fat? Low carb is wonderful. Is the person lean? The issue gets tricky. Of course I recognize that I left quite a gap in between these two figures. This is where subjectivity (level of activity, personal biochemistry, exercise and nutritional history, stress, sleep problems, etc) comes in. Again, T-Nation’s articles are intended, for the most part, for beginners. And again, the majority of people on T-Nation get the majority of their information from T-Nation. This hurts perspective and “outside the box” trouble-shooting.

I suppose I wasn’t being clear that observation is the most important aspect of knowledge to me. My apologies for not framing it correctly initially, although I thought I was clear in subsequent posts.

I sincerely hope this does not come across as pretentious, but I am, first and foremost, trained in Anthropology, a study that in its very essence is based on observation and cross-comparison. In fact, we anthropologists are guilty of fishing for scientific evidence to support our observations, myself included :slight_smile: This is why in my post above I said that it is my belief that science should be used to inform, not to dictate.

[quote] Which is what toocul4u was trying to say with this statement on page 1:
"It’s disturbing that you recognize the genetic control of metabolism that exists, and then blanket human biochemistry with the antiquated statement “exercise and controlled calorie diets are the solution” . Ovalpline didn’t seem to understand this critque, however. [/quote]

I have to be honest, I still don’t get his critique. For people who want to lose fat (and sustain that fat loss), they need to recognize that “exercise and controlled calorie diets are the solution”. Why is this an issue? People are so concerned about optimizing and microanalyzing that they don’t get results. Rather, they run their lives through their diets and it’s really no wonder why they fail. Is it possible that people can lose more fat on a very low carb diet? Sure! Is it possible that a very low carb diet is harder to sustain? Well… I’ve provided both an observational (myself, people on T-Nation in general, people on the AD thread, the countless people who have tried Atkins and failed) and a scientific approach to explaining this, and quite frankly, I don’t know what else to say :slight_smile:

I would really like to reiterate that the only thing Andersons and I have been arguing is that a diet must be sustainable and it must serve the body. If it’s very low carb, fine. If it’s high carb, fine. If it’s some Frankenstein creation, fine.

-Stu

47

[quote]gi2eg wrote:
also, something to consider:

genes can be activated. its not always one way or the other.

diet (including macronutrient proportions, frequency of meals, etc.) and activity (type/duration/etc) can affect these “on/off” genes. [/quote]

Excellent points.

None taken! For a scientific analysis, you are absolutely right.

Yes. I agree. My observation though is that most people are beginners and don’t stay in the game very long. Moreover, when dealing with more intermediate and advanced level athletes, nutritional programming is much more complex than PWO carbs and basic nutrient timing, etc… and this is not to minimize these concepts.

48

[quote]andersons wrote:
I’ve also observed that people on the very-low-carb diets are just so irritable. It’s not just me. And I do not think it’s the calories. It’s the carbs. In fact, follow a super-low-carb diet for a few weeks, then eat a couple donuts. Your mood will skyrocket like you just took Ecstasy or something. [/quote]

Excellent point. Heck, Di Pasquale (THE authority) even mentions how serotonin rises on the carb-loads in the AD/MD books. And, from personal observation, those MASSIVE feel good reactions from cheat foods don’t occur when retaining carbohydrate in a diet.

49

[quote]ovalpline wrote:
cueball wrote:
My apologies. My intention is never to condescend, but rather to challenge nutritional dogma on this website.

The main point Andersons and I are trying to make is that we have observed a lot of unhappy very low carb dieters, ourselves included. And after adding more carbs back in our diets, we have felt worlds better and still gotten results.

The question we are posing is: is it worth losing 1.5 pounds per week and feeling like crap? Or is losing 1.3 pounds per week and feeling OK a good substitute? Again, neither Andersons nor I are proposing a high carb diet, but rather more sane alternatives which we feel are lacking on the forums.

Also, both of us recognize that some do very well on very low carb. What is important to recognize is that the articles written on T-Nation are, for the most part, for beginners. Individuals who train a lot and/or have been in this game for awhile have other considerations.

You and I are in complete accord on this. Only thing is, most people on the T-Nation forum get the majority of their information from this website. As a result of the majority of people working on the same nutritional paradigm, there is little “outside the box” thinking and problem-solving. BTW, this is not an attack!!!

Again, my apologies if this is how I have come off. This is certainly not my intention.

I would also like to reiterate that what I’m saying is about more than science, but rather a subjective feel. I.E. - how’s your mood, etc?

For the record, all science that I’ve brought in to this conversation is first based on observation and experience. I am of the belief that science should inform us, not dictate to us.

I agree. People should always remain open, and this is my primary objection to dogma… always :slight_smile:

-Stu[/quote]

I understand you and anderson have observed shitty moods on low carb. You’ve been saying this since the discussion started. I get it. Low carb isn’t nutritional dogma here. There are many different diets and only a few are low carb.

Articles here are are not written mainly for beginners. This has been said by authors. The ones that are usually have the word beginner in it. As a matter of fact, the AD was written with professional natural bodybuilders in mind. It was not written for beginners. Nor was it written for this site or by a current author of this site.

Also, there are many SEASONED users on this site who use this approach successfully. So don’t imply low carb is suited for “beginners” and the more seasoned trainee needs something “better”. That’s just silly.

If you agree that some do well on a low carb diet and don’t suffer from shitty moods, and that it’s a great way to lose fat, to a certain point, what are you trying to convince me of? I’ve agreed that people should not continue with deflated moods or other undersirable symptoms. I have also agreed it’s not for everyone.

Every time I say this you come back and reiterate everything you’ve already said in a different fashion as if I don’t get it and you just might convince me (or some one else) that we aren’t thinking past the fat loss and looking at “the big picture” like you are.

So go ahead and “reiterate” one more time that it’s about “how’s your mood?”. I’ll go ahead and give you a preemptive response. My moods fine. And if anyone tries low carb, and their mood’s fine, keep on with it.

cueball

50

[quote]ovalpline wrote:

I have to be honest, I still don’t get his critique. For people who want to lose fat (and sustain that fat loss), they need to recognize that “exercise and controlled calorie diets are the solution”. Why is this an issue? People are so concerned about optimizing and microanalyzing that they don’t get results. Rather, they run their lives through their diets and it’s really no wonder why they fail. Is it possible that people can lose more fat on a very low carb diet? Sure! Is it possible that a very low carb diet is harder to sustain? Well… I’ve provided both an observational (myself, people on T-Nation in general, people on the AD thread, the countless people who have tried Atkins and failed) and a scientific approach to explaining this, and quite frankly, I don’t know what else to say :slight_smile:

I would really like to reiterate that the only thing Andersons and I have been arguing is that a diet must be sustainable and it must serve the body. If it’s very low carb, fine. If it’s high carb, fine. If it’s some Frankenstein creation, fine.

-Stu[/quote]

The “observational” stuff you’ve provided has only really be yours. Not T-Nation in general. Not people in the AD thread. Have you polled the entire poulation here to find out that the majority of people on AD or other low carb has had the “shitty moods”? No, you haven’t. Stop speaking for them to prop up your position. The AD thread is LOADED with guys saying it’s the greatest diet ever and they feel great.

If your last paragraph is your actual position, what then do you disagree with me on? I’ve never said different.

cueball

51

Good posts…I guess i should admit that i don’t eat or recommend “low carb” as it might be understood in this thread/website.

I think a varied carb intake is best (but maxing at lower-to-moderate, around ~150g in a day), with carbs coming only from fruits/vegetables.

52

[quote]cueball wrote:
I understand you and anderson have observed shitty moods on low carb. You’ve been saying this since the discussion started. I get it. Low carb isn’t nutritional dogma here. There are many different diets and only a few are low carb.

Articles here are are not written mainly for beginners. This has been said by authors. The ones that are usually have the word beginner in it. As a matter of fact, the AD was written with professional natural bodybuilders in mind. It was not written for beginners. Nor was it written for this site or by a current author of this site.

Also, there are many SEASONED users on this site who use this approach successfully. So don’t imply low carb is suited for “beginners” and the more seasoned trainee needs something “better”. That’s just silly.

If you agree that some do well on a low carb diet and don’t suffer from shitty moods, and that it’s a great way to lose fat, to a certain point, what are you trying to convince me of? I’ve agreed that people should not continue with deflated moods or other undersirable symptoms. I have also agreed it’s not for everyone.

Every time I say this you come back and reiterate everything you’ve already said in a different fashion as if I don’t get it and you just might convince me (or some one else) that we aren’t thinking past the fat loss and looking at “the big picture” like you are.

So go ahead and “reiterate” one more time that it’s about “how’s your mood?”. I’ll go ahead and give you a preemptive response. My moods fine. And if anyone tries low carb, and their mood’s fine, keep on with it.

cueball[/quote]

lol fair enough. To be honest, I have nothing else to say.

53

[quote]cueball wrote:
ovalpline wrote:

I have to be honest, I still don’t get his critique. For people who want to lose fat (and sustain that fat loss), they need to recognize that “exercise and controlled calorie diets are the solution”. Why is this an issue? People are so concerned about optimizing and microanalyzing that they don’t get results. Rather, they run their lives through their diets and it’s really no wonder why they fail. Is it possible that people can lose more fat on a very low carb diet? Sure! Is it possible that a very low carb diet is harder to sustain? Well… I’ve provided both an observational (myself, people on T-Nation in general, people on the AD thread, the countless people who have tried Atkins and failed) and a scientific approach to explaining this, and quite frankly, I don’t know what else to say :slight_smile:

I would really like to reiterate that the only thing Andersons and I have been arguing is that a diet must be sustainable and it must serve the body. If it’s very low carb, fine. If it’s high carb, fine. If it’s some Frankenstein creation, fine.

-Stu

The “observational” stuff you’ve provided has only really be yours. Not T-Nation in general. Not people in the AD thread. Have you polled the entire poulation here to find out that the majority of people on AD or other low carb has had the “shitty moods”? No, you haven’t. Stop speaking for them to prop up your position. The AD thread is LOADED with guys saying it’s the greatest diet ever and they feel great.

If your last paragraph is your actual position, what then do you disagree with me on? I’ve never said different.

cueball[/quote]

I don’t disagree with you on anything. All my most recent posts have been attempting to convey this.

As far as the AD, have you read the entire thread and/or talked with a lot of guys via PM and/or observed people dropping off the thread? Look, like I stated already, I’ve been on the AD twice and have been involved in countless troubleshoots on that thread.

Anyway, as I stated already, I have really nothing else left to say. I’ve exhausted all my points and I appreciate your role in the discussion.

-Stu