[quote]spamme wrote:
To proclaim there is a cure, you must have proof. Tell me the cure and give me examples of where it worked. Again if you can not give this information, you are simply regurgitating without thinking, which is dangerous.[/quote]
Please see the many many studies posted above which have helped bring people out of the homosexual lifestyle.
This is absolutely something which can be changed IF the person really wants to change it!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
If the powerful homosexual lobbies and the social liberals would stop claimig that people are “born that way” and stop attacking those who sponsor such studies you would see a great deal more leave the homosexual lifestyle.
It can be done!
[/quote]
Actually its not the powerful homosexual lobbies and social liberals causing the problem, it is the scientists. For every study that shows a few homosexuals can be “converted” to heterosexual, there are as many stating they cannot.
Granted as most do, you only quote the studies that support your veiwpoint. Problem is, there are just as many that do not.
Some argue that when twins are studied, there are heritable traits that play a greater role than environmental.
Others argue that most animals are bisexual…
http://print.google.com/print?id=w76at4mOWeEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA9&sig=PR1_Wifp4Rh0gFYH_qhMn7RxERE
Other studies have shown evidence that neuroendocrine factors at critical times in development play a critical role in determining sexual preference.
Other studies have gone further with the neurendocrine model and suggested there are measurable differences in brain orientation using more modern neuroimaging.
And that was found with less than a minute of searching. It is not the homosexuals and press that are the problem. It’s the scientists that are researching it.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
spamme wrote:
To proclaim there is a cure, you must have proof. Tell me the cure and give me examples of where it worked. Again if you can not give this information, you are simply regurgitating without thinking, which is dangerous.
Please see the many many studies posted above which have helped bring people out of the homosexual lifestyle.
This is absolutely something which can be changed IF the person really wants to change it![/quote]
So if someone can convert a homosexual to a heterosexual, then it must be possible to convert the other way.
So if a study is done that converts a bunch of heterosexuals to homosexuals, is that proof then that heterosexuality is a disease and can be cured.
The following is from the web site that was posted by WMD. It seems to supply some possiblities why 1% to 2% of our population has same sex attraction.
http://traditionalvalues.org/urban/three.php
For example one study By a Doctor Dickson states: "…an alarming 49% of homosexuals surveyed had been molested compared to less than 2% of heterosexuals.
"If Not Genes,
Then What Causes Homosexuality?
Regent University’s Law Review for Spring, 2002, is entirely devoted to a discussion of various aspects of homosexuality, including the origins and causes of homosexual behaviors. The Law Review includes a study, " Homosexuality: Innate and Immutable?" by Dr. A. Dean Byrd and Stony Olsen.
After discussing the lack of evidence on the genetic origins of homosexuality, Dr. Byrd and his associate detail the various environmental factors that can lead a person into a homosexual lifestyle.
Gender Confusion: Dr. George Rekers, an expert on Gender Identity Disorders, is author of dozens of scholarly research papers on homosexuality and wrote Growing Up Straight: What Every Family Should Know About Homosexuality in 1982. He is also editor of Handbook of Child and Adolescent Sexual Problems, published in 1995. Dr. Rekers stated in 1995, that "Gender nonconformity in childhood may be the single common observable factor associated with homosexuality. Some of the typical childhood factors leading to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved and unapproving; perception of mother being too close, too involved; diminished or distorted masculinity or femininity; premature introduction to sexuality; and gender confusion.
Failure To Internalize Maleness: Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality has written: “Homosexuality is a developmental problem that is almost always the result of problems in family relationships, particularly between father and son. As a result of failure with father, the boy does not fully internalize male gender identity, and develops homosexuality. This is the most commonly seen clinical model.”
Dr. George Rekers, writing in Growing Up Straight, observes: “Many studies of homosexual patients as well as of nonpatient homosexuals have established a classic pattern of background family relations. The most frequent family pattern reported from the male homosexuals includes a binding, intimate mother in combination with a hostile, detached father.”
Sexual Abuse By Same-Sex Predator: In studies conducted by Diana Shrier and Robert Johnson in 1985 and 1988, males who had been sexually abused as children were almost seven times as likely as non-molested boys to become homosexuals.
Dr. Gregory Dickson recently completed a doctoral dissertation on the pattern of relationships between mothers and their male homosexual sons. His paper is entitled: “An Empirical Study of the Mother/Son Dyad in Relation to the Development of Adult Male Homosexuality: An Object Relations Perspective.”
Dr. Dickson’s study is reviewed on the NARTH web site. His study sheds new light on the relationship between early childhood sexual abuse and a child’s later involvement in homosexual behaviors. According to Dickson, an alarming 49% of homosexuals surveyed had been molested compared to less than 2% of heterosexuals.
His study affirms previous findings of Dr. David Finkelhor (1984), which found that boys victimized by older men were four times more likely to be currently involved in homosexual behaviors than were non-victims. As Finkelhor observed: “It may be common for a boy who has been involved in an experience with an older man to label himself as homosexual (1) because he has had a homosexual experience and (2) because he was found to be sexually attractive by a man. Once he labels himself homosexual, the boy may begin to behave consistently with the role and gravitate toward homosexual activity.” (Child Sexual Abuse: New Theory and Research, New York: The Free Press, 1984).
Dr. Dickson’s study suggests that sexual abuse should be considered in evaluating the factors that contribute to the development of adult homosexual behaviors. Dickson writes: “An experience of sexual abuse could possibly contribute to the sexualizing of the unmet needs for male affection, attention, and connection.”
Dr. Dickson continues: “Given the relational deficits [with his mother] experienced by the male child, it is also possible that the molestation, as devastating as it may have been emotionally, simultaneously may be experienced by some of the boys as their first form of adult male affection, as well as something relational that is not shared in common with his mother.”
Counselor Dr. Robert Hicks, author of The Masculine Journey, has written: “?In counseling gay men for twenty years, I have not had one yet whom I would say had a normative childhood or normative adolescent development in the sexual arena. More often than not I have found stories of abusive, alcoholic, or absent (physically and emotionally) fathers: stories of incest or first experiences of sex forced upon them by older brothers, neighborhood men, or even friends. I sometimes find these men have had early exposure to pornography?.”
Homosexuals Are Made, Not Born
In summary, the most credible research to date on homosexuality-and research conducted years ago-demonstrates that no one is “born gay.” The homosexual is suffering from a developmental problem, which frequently starts out in childhood as gender confusion, family dysfunction, or molestation.
From a Christian perspective, homosexual behavior is also labeled a sin and a sexual perversion. It is a behavior that must be repented of. The sin is akin to allowing oneself to become addicted to pornography or to drugs. These behaviors can be overcome-but the person must want to change!
The Bible-both the Old and New Testaments-clearly condemn homosexuality as a sin and a sexual perversion. Dr. Robert Gagnon, assistant professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary has written a definitive text on how God views homosexuality. In The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics, Gagnon proves beyond doubt that the Bible consistently condemns homosexual behavior but calls the homosexual-and other sinners-to repentance and salvation. Gagnon urges Christians to resist the homosexual agenda but to love the sinner by “befriending the homosexual while withholding approval of homosexual behavior.”
There is hope for homosexuals through developing a relationship with Jesus Christ, through both religious and secular counseling programs, and through support groups that provide accountability for those struggling with same-sex attractions and self-destructive behaviors.
Organizations like Exodus International, Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays, NARTH, Reality Resources, and others can provide the resources that homosexuals need to be set free from these self-destructive sexual behaviors. Freedom is possible for those who wish to be free!"
When you start quoting religous “studies” as scientific evidence, it is time for me to leave. Merry Christmas anyway!
[quote]fatsensei wrote:
Ahhh liberals. This is probably a poor attitude but I really hope that on judgement day when you are trying to explain to God why being a homosexual is ok that I can be there. It’ll be a hoot.
FatSensei[/quote]
just to play devils advocate here…can i be present when you find out the muslims were right?
I’m not really a muslim, but I think that equating anyone who isn’t christian as a liberal is completely stupid. I myself am a proud conservative who is infavor of gay people getting hitched. You don’t have to be a liberal to be able to see the big picture, I think the orriginal post was 100% on target and quite funny.
[quote]spamme wrote:
When you start quoting religous “studies” as scientific evidence, it is time for me to leave. Merry Christmas anyway! [/quote]
The following studies are not religious in any way!
They show that if one has the desire they can break same sex attraction:
"Dr. Robert Spitzer (2001)
Dr Spitzer is a psychiatry professor at Columbia University. He conducted a study of 143 ex-gays and 57 ex-lesbians who reported that they have become “straight.” 2 He reported his findings at a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association on 2001-MAY-9. He concluded, as a result of 45 minute interviews with each subject, that 66% of the males and 44% of the females had arrived at “good heterosexual functioning.”
According to Cnn.com, that term is defined as having been “in a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship within the past year, getting enough satisfaction from the emotional relationship with their partner to rate at least seven on a 10-point scale, having satisfying heterosexual sex at least monthly and never or rarely thinking of somebody of the same sex during heterosexual sex.”
Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (unpublished PhD dissertation, Brigham Young University, on file with Brigham Young University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation.
Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford.
we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic?
All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)"
If the powerful homosexual lobbies and the social liberals would stop claimig that people are “born that way” and stop attacking those who sponsor such studies you would see a great deal more leave the homosexual lifestyle."
[quote]spamme wrote:
ZEB wrote:
If the powerful homosexual lobbies and the social liberals would stop claimig that people are “born that way” and stop attacking those who sponsor such studies you would see a great deal more leave the homosexual lifestyle.
It can be done!
Actually its not the powerful homosexual lobbies and social liberals causing the problem, it is the scientists. For every study that shows a few homosexuals can be “converted” to heterosexual, there are as many stating they cannot.[/quote]
It’s more than “a few.” The average varies with in a large range. 30% in the low studies to as high as 70% “conversion” in some studies. Obviously both numbers are more than “a few.” Don’t demean the hard work that these folks put in to try to improve their lives.
[quote]Granted as most do, you only quote the studies that support your veiwpoint. Problem is, there are just as many that do not.
[/quote]
If the average for those “conversions” is around 50% then obviously there are 50% who failed at conversion as well.
is the glass half empty or half full?
My contention is that the percent should be ZERO if the gay lobbies and social liberals were correct in saying “they are born that way.”
How many black people become white?
How many women become men?
[quote]spamme wrote:
Since I am not gay myself, and I have not reviewed all the research, nor spoken to that many gays about the subject, I will simply say I am not qualified to authoritatively state how much is genetic vs environmental and certainly not if its “curable”.
[/quote]
Well, thanks for stopping by anyhow.
[quote]surfrider542003 wrote:
oh my goodness, are you telling me that your god abhors homosexuality but condones violence. christianity has a long history of blood letting, i am sure that collectively christianity has cuased more suffering than homosexuality. the proof is in the pudding, you can not escape your history pal.[/quote]
Gosh, I’m pretty sure when Jesus died on the cross that He could have done something to stop it. But, He didn’t. That’s a pretty strong statement for Christianity.
Are you confusing Old Testament and New Testament? That frequently happens with people who are unfamiler with the Bible. Perhaps you can throw out specifics and get some thoughts on the matter. But, you’d best do it under another thread. This one is pretty well booked.
This thread is not about religion. It is about gay marriage. However, there is such an interest in the religious side of this that I am compelled to clarify something:
Religion does not save people, and people do not save themselves. God does not care what religion we belong to. He cares only about one thing. Are you ready? Here it is:
You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins. If you accept this sacrifice, then you are saved. If you do not accept this sacrifice, then you are dead in your sins.
The above statement is a perpetual fact of God. Seek and ye shall find.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
However, there is such an interest in the religious side of this that I am compelled to clarify something:
Religion does not save people, and people do not save themselves. God does not care what religion we belong to. He cares only about one thing. Are you ready? Here it is:
You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins. If you accept this sacrifice, then you are saved. If you do not accept this sacrifice, then you are dead in your sins.
The above statement is a perpetual fact of God. Seek and ye shall find. [/quote]
When discussing religion, especially on the internet, the chance of changing anyone’s opinion of the subject is virtually zero.
The only opinion likely to be formed is about the writer’s intellect.
Want to express an opinion, great its fun.
But with a multitude of religions and varying beliefs within each, for you to make a dogmatic statement like “God only cares about one thing”, is simply laughable.
What is even funnier is you state “God does not care what religion we belong to.” But then you state that “he only cares about You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins.” I hate to tell you but many religions do not believe that. And if God doesn’t care about your religion, how can he care if you do not believe something that did not happen according to your particular religion.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
This thread is not about religion. It is about gay marriage. However, there is such an interest in the religious side of this that I am compelled to clarify something:
Religion does not save people, and people do not save themselves. God does not care what religion we belong to. He cares only about one thing. Are you ready? Here it is:
You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins. If you accept this sacrifice, then you are saved. If you do not accept this sacrifice, then you are dead in your sins.
The above statement is a perpetual fact of God. Seek and ye shall find. [/quote]
that’s a good one, lol !!!
equivalent to saying you can do anabolics and eat junk food all the time without working out and you will become a professional bodybuilder. laters pk
[quote]spamme wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
However, there is such an interest in the religious side of this that I am compelled to clarify something:
Religion does not save people, and people do not save themselves. God does not care what religion we belong to. He cares only about one thing. Are you ready? Here it is:
You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins. If you accept this sacrifice, then you are saved. If you do not accept this sacrifice, then you are dead in your sins.
The above statement is a perpetual fact of God. Seek and ye shall find.
When discussing religion, especially on the internet, the chance of changing anyone’s opinion of the subject is virtually zero.
The only opinion likely to be formed is about the writer’s intellect.
Want to express an opinion, great its fun.
But with a multitude of religions and varying beliefs within each, for you to make a dogmatic statement like “God only cares about one thing”, is simply laughable.
What is even funnier is you state “God does not care what religion we belong to.” But then you state that “he only cares about You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins.” I hate to tell you but many religions do not believe that. And if God doesn’t care about your religion, how can he care if you do not believe something that did not happen according to your particular religion.
[/quote]
You missed the point, but I’m not surprised. I have not intention of trying to change people. I don’t have the power to do that. Only God has that power.
Just wanted to wish everyone here a
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Today is a wonderful day. Let us remember why we celebrate it.
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
This thread is not about religion. It is about gay marriage. However, there is such an interest in the religious side of this that I am compelled to clarify something:
Religion does not save people, and people do not save themselves. God does not care what religion we belong to. He cares only about one thing. Are you ready? Here it is:
You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ as the total payment for your sins. If you accept this sacrifice, then you are saved. If you do not accept this sacrifice, then you are dead in your sins.
The above statement is a perpetual fact of God. Seek and ye shall find.
that’s a good one, lol !!!
equivalent to saying you can do anabolics and eat junk food all the time without working out and you will become a professional bodybuilder. laters pk[/quote]
How is that equivalent? Please elaborate.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
You missed the point, but I’m not surprised. I have not intention of trying to change people. I don’t have the power to do that. Only God has that power.
[/quote]
Apparently I did. So could you explain to me how God can “not care what religion we belong to” yet “You accept the sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ …or you are dead in your sins.”
Doesn’t make sense to me. Many religions do not accept that Jesus Christ even existed, let alone accept the sacrifice.
So can you explain that contradiction. Or did you mean God is tolerant of all religions, as long as that religion is like yours.
[quote]ZEB and lackeys, et al said: Want to talk about suspect links? Your first one is from a Professor from the University of Berkeley! (I’m choking up with laughter right now…and I thank you 
Your next one is from the University of Vermont…(rolling on floor laughing now).
And your final one is from the University of Webster. (more laughter more fun).
Jeeezzzze - you’ve not only lost the argument, but you’ve lost your mind.
Illogical…Illogical…Will not compute…
Come on, sweatheart
Seriously babe, get a grip. You’re begining to sound like a loon
Your lack of logic is astounding at times (and so much education too).
[/quote]
Beautiful. Just beautiful. It warms my heart to know that my time in the military was well spent, ensuring that my fellow Americans (who could not be bothered to defend themselves) could excercise their freedom speech by mocking and deriding my intelligence, my mental health, my character and telling me how I am like crack heads, pedophiles and other degenerates AND that my relationship of 10 years (which statiscally should have ended 7 years ago) deserves no protections or ratifications. Vero dulce et decorum est pro patria servavi. But I would be bad if I were to call a fucktard a fucktard.
I suppose kudos are in order since you have achieved the ideal gay bashing ratio of 3 to 1. I guess it just brings out the best in real men when they feel they have numerical superiority.
But let’s address some of the more intelligent commentary.
[quote]Then explain why there are more gay people now than before? Are they having babies some new biological way no one knows about? No, it’s more accepted to be gay, so more kids who are going through the normal sexual identity stuff are told that it is ok to be gay. So they wake up one day and say, hey, I guess I’m gay. Just like Anne Heash (don’t know how her name is spelled). One days she is gay going out with Ellen Degenerate and the next she is hetero going out with some guy.
[/quote]
What in hell are you basing the idea that there are more gay people than ever before on? REally, what census data are you using forcomparison? Pulled it out of your butt, you say? I guess you really do believe people just wake up one day and decide to be gay for the pure hell of it.
As far as Heche goes (it only took a second on the internet to find that), perhaps you’ve heard of bisexuality? It’s DeGeneres btw, not Degenerate. But nice gay bash, dude. Really sweet. Just can’t help showing your homophobic ass, can you?
Please do some research on the subject of “sample bias”. Then you will understand that when you cull participants from a specific location or event or group, the sample is skewed. For instance if you recruit respondents for an alcoholism study from a bar, the sample will be skewed to indicate a propensity toward alcohol abuse.
[quote]Sorry babe, can’t make a baby without an man. Doesn’t matter where you get the sperm, you still needed a man to do it. Now doesn’t that just irritate you. When it comes down to it you still need a man. So babe, the answer is no, you can’t make babies unless you have help. And to answer your other question, no, I will not be a donor for you!
[/quote]
Please look up parthenogenesis. Soon you will be obsolete. It does not irritate me that sperm is needed for traditional baby making. Maybe it irritates you. I really appreciate the sexist condescension as well. Very nice. As far as the sperm donor comment goes, I can’t even begin to describe just how vile and inappropriate it is. Let’s be clear that this would constitute an act of rape. Statistically speaking, you are a rapist after all, as are ZEB and ivan. I hope you are prepared to be shot repeatedly if you ever make an attempt. 
[quote]ZEB said: Did you know that good pollsters like Zogby can tell you who the next President will be by sampling under 1000 people?
[/quote]
The operative word being “good”. Let’s get Zogby to do a scientific sampling (let’s say 6000 people) of gay people, male and female, from all age groups and all walks of life. Then I want a plane ticket to wherever you are so you can kiss my gay white ass.
I am really amused that you have found some studies (dug 'em off of traditonal values, did you) from the 60’s and 70’s to back up Spitzer’s research. That is some funny stuff. See if you were to actually go read many of the articles from whence you cherry pick your statistics, you would see that what they did were literature reviews and polls. Not studies that duplicated and reduplicated verifiable conversion to heterosexuality. This is not the same thing, not that you care. All Spitzer did was call some people (recruited from NARTH and other ex-gay groups; this constitutes sample bias) and ask them questions.
I shouldn’t be surprised that you take Traditionalvalues.org seriously. They have no bias and are clearly focused on fair and balanced information. Have fun swimming in the sewer.
[quote]Or, they are not all that happy with a lifestyle that is causing them a ton of emotional and physcial pain.
[/quote]
If all us queers are so desperately unhappy, as you insist we all are, why aren’t we converting in droves? I mean the only number you have come up with is from Spitzer (whose research was thoroughly ripped apart by his own peers, as I posted previously) and that is 200. If we say that gay people make up say 4% of the population, giving us say 8 million people, 200 is a pretty pathetic number.
[quote]Chris here is the underlying problem: It is dangerous for a man to place his penis inside of another mans rectum. It’s as simple as that! I have given the medical reasons on this a few times, need them again?
We were (and are) talking about homosexual behavior. Should I qualify every statement from this point forward in order to satisfy your illogical assumptions?
[/quote]
Yes, ZEB, given your propensity to make sweeping generalizations about gay people, as though straight people have none of the same problems and none of the same behaviors, I think you should start qualifying your statements to satisfy your illogical assumptions. Of course, then you’d have to acknowledge it isn’t sexual orientation that is the problem but risky behaviors. If you do that the foundation of your argument crumbles and you have to acknowledge that not all gay people engage in these behaviors any more than all straights do. You would also have to begin denying the right to marry to thousands upon thousands of straight people because they have drug problems, alcohol problems, mental problems and they engage in any number of risky behaviors. You would also have to acknowledge the moral bankruptcyof your position. And we all know that will never happen.
If you don’t want to talk about gay teachers, please tell your lackey ivan not to keep bringing it up.
What is absurd about posting a website regarding homophobia on a thread in which it dominates?
[quote]Yes WMD the government was homophobic and created AIDS so that homosexuals would get sick and die…(eye roll).
[/quote]
Actually if you read the quote, it didn’t say the government designed AIDS to target homosexuals but all people. I also posted it as a joke but it was probably too subtle for you to grasp. I forget how good you are at missing the points of things.
[quote]You seem to want to grab hold of every wacky theory and liberal logic talking point that you can in order to remove any sort of responsibility from the actor for his/her actions!
[/quote]
I have never said individuals were not responsible for their actions. This is a blatant lie and misrepresentation of my position, as I am quite sure you are aware. Quite to the contrary, I believe that one is responsible for ones actions. I also believe that unless someone elses behavior has a direct impact upon me or is causing harm to someone who needs to be protected, it is none of my business what they do. Which means if I see anyone, gay or straight, harming a child, animal, elderly person or anyone who cannot defend themselves for whatever reason, then I must intervene. Other than that, not my problem. That would more correctly be termed libertarianism, a belief in human liberty.
Thanks for the education about vaginas. As a gay woman, I would know nothing about vaginas. Thank you for educating me that the only thing I should allow into my vagina is a penis. Would you like to select the penis you approve of, since I am not a free autonomous adult in what is supposedly a free country and I should have no choice in what happens to my body or who should touch it? Please sign me up for this ZEB approved version of socially sanctioned rape.
[quote]"Homosexual pedophiles sexually molest children at a far greater rate compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. A study in the Journal of Sex Research found, that “approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls.”
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Let’s see two thirds molest girls but the real problem is the “homosexual” pedophiles. I guess it is much worse to rape little boys than it is little girls, since they have vaginas and that’s where penises go. Also the false assumption that pedophilia is related to homosexuality, rather than an interest in children. What distinguishes pedophilia from homosexuality, as I have tried to point out to lorisco, is consensual behavior between adults. Show me any pedophile that has an interest in sex with adults or healthy adult relationships of any sort. I won’t even point out that you are culling this info from one of the most rabid ant-gay websites on the net, rendering it suspect at best.
[quote]"Study after study reveals that homosexuality, whether male or female, can take anywhere from 10, 20 to 30 years off of someone’s lifespan. With all the attention on smoking, which the National Cancer Institute says takes from 7 to 10 years off someone’s life, why not the same human outcry on homosexuality?
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Yes our higher death rate accounts for all those old queers out there in ivan’s park and in your various studies of older gay men.
Check this out: http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=83
Heres something to help you understand the problems with quoting stats: http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=327
Oops, the CDC is playing fast and loose with data: http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=110
a select tidbit: There’s one last glitch in the new CDC report. By it’s own admission, the CDC does not use the results from those who avail themselves of HIV infection testing to establish their HIV infection estimates. As reported in VitalSTATS for October 2001, the CDC forms its yearly HIV infection estimate by a mathematical model that depends upon certain population assumptions, and not from the number of at-risk persons who decide to get HIV testing.
http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=103
Here’s one for those of you who think conversion to heterosexuality is really viable: "Hitler believed that homosexuality was “degenerate behavior” which posed a threat to the capacity of the state and the “masculine character” of the nation. Gay men were denounced as “enemies of the state” and charged with “corrupting” public morality and posing a threat to the German birthrate.
About one million gay men were victimized by the Nazi regime. Gays were not initially treated in the same fashion as the Jews, however; Nazi Germany thought of German gay men as part of the “Master Race” and sought to force gay men into sexual and social conformity. Gay men who would not conform and switch sexual orientation were sent to concentration camps under the extermination through work campaign.
Nazi persecution of gay men was carried out primarily through harsh enforcement of anti-gay laws, under which about 100,000 were arrested. 50,000 were sentenced to prison terms, with an unknown number committed to mental hospitals. Hundreds of gay men were castrated under court order.
Some persecuted under these laws would not have identified themselves as gay. Such “anti-homosexual” laws were widespread throughout the western world until the 1960s and 1970s, so many gay men did not feel safe to come forward with their stories until the 1970s when many so-called “sodomy laws” were repealed."
YOu’d think people would just fall all over themselves to convert given the, um, incentives presented by the Nazis (now there’s a group you want to emulate). Who would willingly remain gay in light of going to a concentration camp to murdered or forcibly castrated? Gay women were often gang-raped to convince them to convert.
I would imagine this is of no concern to my interlocutors since they are men and therefore most likely rapists (at least according to statistics) and they know what is best for all us queers: That is to be in hetero relationships whether we consent or not, since we should not have the right to choose our partners. Or choose what organs go where since we have no rights to our bodies anyway. Der Fuhrer would be proud of you, gentlemen.
Now I must go eat some of my (hetero) mother’s prime rib roast. Happy Jesus’s nonBirthday.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
surfrider542003 wrote:
oh my goodness, are you telling me that your god abhors homosexuality but condones violence. christianity has a long history of blood letting, i am sure that collectively christianity has cuased more suffering than homosexuality. the proof is in the pudding, you can not escape your history pal.
Gosh, I’m pretty sure when Jesus died on the cross that He could have done something to stop it. But, He didn’t. That’s a pretty strong statement for Christianity.
Are you confusing Old Testament and New Testament? That frequently happens with people who are unfamiler with the Bible. Perhaps you can throw out specifics and get some thoughts on the matter. But, you’d best do it under another thread. This one is pretty well booked.[/quote]
Jesus could have avoided crucifixion if he had just left Jerusalem. Once he was nailed to that thing, he was dead. The crucifixion was not used as a Chrisitan symbol until after crucifixion stopped being used as a humiliating death for criminals. That really says something about Christianity.
As far as bloodletting goes in the name of God and Christ are you unfamiliar with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Wars of Religion (aka the Thirty Years War), the Arian Schism, etc, etc, ad infinitum?
Maybe you should read something other than the Bible if you want to know about history.
[quote]WMD wrote:
Jesus could have avoided crucifixion if he had just left Jerusalem. [/quote]
Shhh… you’ll startle the sheep.
Let’s see, we have a delusional guy who is so arrogant/psycho to think that he is the perfect son of God… yeah, he’s gonna do the smart thing and go to Greece or something where teachers and philosophers are revered and venerated…NOT!
The poor guy was nuts.
Here’s the GOOD NEWS:
Jesus has risen. I talk to a different one just about once a month. We post a security guard to watch them and put them in a special room where they can’t hurt themselves or anybody else before they are shipped off to a rehab center.
If you guys (christians) could just see what I see, then the real world you try so hard to ignore would make a whole lot more sense. Good luck.