🤫 Progressive Overload and Heresy

[TrainForPain]

@saling4

I am 66+

I love the optimism in that one little symbol; I’m definitely stealing that!

[Dani_Shugart]

@keengkong

I noticed that in the lifting community there is a strong tendency for people to believe that whatever way they lift is the “right way” to lift, not just the right way for them.

That is so true and you’re right — it’s a lot different from the running community. When people get angry that others are picking up heavy objects in a different way, you know we’ve entered a world of complete silliness.

[Dani_Shugart]

@saling4

I like Bodyweight training… There I have said it in public!! I look at my BB and think “Nope, 50 burpees”. Here is my normal day (no laughing): 50 burpees w/squat chaser, 100 pushups, 24 pullups, 100 KB swings (16kg or 28kg depending how I feel), 3 mile walk and some breath work.

Your workouts are tough! I’d struggle to even finish that. Thanks for sharing your confession!

[jeffbosley]

All perfect points! Even the ones full of “heresy”. Cool bro. You can deadlift… but can you get out of bed and function in life, have healthy labs, defend yourself/your loved ones and move a couch? If so…that’s a life win.

[deyan]

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that the same goal can be achieved by completely different and opposite methods. Here, for example, look at the yogis. Most of them are even underweight, they do not eat meat and many other foods that are important for the human body. They eat very little food. And if someone looks at their diet, he will say that in a short time a person will get sick and will not live long. But the opposite happens. Most yogis have excellent organ health and live long lives.

[cyclonengineer]

I am the same way. I used to crap on yoga and stuff like that before I tried it. Yoga is great at building isometric strength and balance.

[deyan]

I also did the physical part for a while and enjoyed it. My mobility and flexibility are very poor. But I noticed that after I started doing yoga poses my strength on the bar decreased. I did yoga for 15-20 minutes, no more. But when I go to the gym the other day, for example, my strength has decreased. I had no explanation for this, but I tried it a few times to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. Many people say that when a muscle is stretched it gets stronger. However, it apparently had the opposite effect. And there are no other reasons because I haven’t changed my diet or anything else.
Not that it’s a drama, and maybe I’ll still do yoga from time to time, but let me tell you how it was for me anyway.
Otherwise, I still have some explanation. And it is that the people of this region have been eating in a similar way for thousands of years even if they did not practice yoga. Their genes have adapted to this lifestyle. And when you add yoga practices to that, things get even better. For the European or the American, these diets may be disastrous.

[cdep89]

@TrainForPain

To be fair to GPs, think of all the different pathologies and presentations with which they have to deal - by definition they really can’t have any form of specific expertise. They tend to find themselves managing population health conditions, like hypertension and diabetes. Often the best thing they can do is refer a patient to the right specialist.

Definitely, and we can’t underplay the amazing jobs that many of them do. Sadly though, nutrition is one of those things that they spend very, very little time on. There are also situations where a GP has already spent a long time making incorrect conclusions based on limited knowledge and by the time you see a specialist, if a common test comes back clear you can struggle to even get a follow-up. The GP then feels justified and can continue you down an already unsuccessful path. As a medical field it seems that digestion is still massively in it’s infancy. I went in 11 years ago and said I think it might be some sort of intestinal bacteria overgrowth - I got told to stop believing things on the internet and that it doesn’t exist. Nowadays SIBO is recognized everywhere. It’s even on the NHS website.

For acute issues Western medicine is amazing, but for chronic issues, not so much right now. I’ve lost count of how many people I know that are addicted to painkillers for lower back pain that could be rehabbed, or take high-dose PPIs. I do concede that’s easier than expecting the average population to become an advocate for their own health though. It’s not the individual fault of the GP at all.

[TrainForPain]

@cdep89

For acute issues Western medicine is amazing, but for chronic issues, not so much right now.

I definitely agree with this sentiment

[rugby_lifting]

When my back pain was at its worse I used to crush up a mixture of cocodimol and nerproxin with whiskey before I went to work so I could actually do a job without being in agony.

Very dark times but the GP didn’t help at all.

[cdep89]

Someone can learn more from a 5-minute youtube video than a doctor when it comes to physiotherapy. But that’s fine, it’s not their lane. It’s the whole “take this and this painkiller and don’t do any squats or deadlifts” advice that I can’t get on board with.

You end up with a nation of people full of excuses rather than fixes.

[TrainForPain]

@rugby_lifting

When my back pain was at its worse I used to crush up a mixture of cocodimol and nerproxin with whiskey before I went to work so I could actually do a job without being in agony.

Hell yeah

[Dani_Shugart]

@jeffbosley

All perfect points! Even the ones full of “heresy”. Cool bro. You can deadlift… but can you get out of bed and function in life, have healthy labs, defend yourself/your loved ones and move a couch? If so…that’s a life win.

WHOA. It’s great to see you here Jeff! And that’s a good way to think of it: having general fitness for practical situations in life versus having the ability to impress people with one cool thing. I do respect the latter because it takes a lot of work and sacrifice, but at the same time, the effort to advance in one specific area often takes away time and energy from other (potentially more important) areas.

The jack of all trades quote comes to mind here.

⁠“A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”
– Viktor Vicsek⁠

I’m okay with the idea of not fully mastering one thing if it means I can be pretty good at a lot of things.

[Dani_Shugart]

@deyan

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that the same goal can be achieved by completely different and opposite methods.

This is an excellent point. Seems like a lot of people figure this out when they’re forced to do something new, and then they’re shocked to see that the new thing worked better than what they thought was the only way to get results.

A big example of this: A lot of women say that they used to be long distance runners, and then when they had to quit due to injury or whatever, they got leaner by NOT doing cardio. It’s counterintuitive, but you’re absolutely right, sometimes the opposite thing works better.

[Dani_Shugart]

@rugby_lifting

When my back pain was at its worse I used to crush up a mixture of cocodimol and nerproxin with whiskey before I went to work so I could actually do a job without being in agony.

Very dark times but the GP didn’t help at all.

I’m so glad you’re not going through that anymore. Did you get it all figured out?

[Dani_Shugart]

@cdep89

It’s the whole “take this and this painkiller and don’t do any squats or deadlifts” advice that I can’t get on board with.

So true. What’s sad is that there are specialists who can help people resolve their pain through movement and mobility, like our friend Grove Higgins, who pops into the forums on occasion. If everybody had access to someone like him, big pharma would be in big trouble. Fewer people would need pain killers and invasive surgeries.

[cdep89]

@Dani_Shugart

This is an excellent point. Seems like a lot of people figure this out when they’re forced to do something new, and then they’re shocked to see that the new thing worked better than what they thought was the only way to get results.

I hear your point on the losing weight/cardio stuff, and it’s 100% accurate. I must add to that though, that this kind of thinking can also be a trap for some people. If someone has been training one way for a while and then try something new, new progress can come quickly. It’s very easy to marry that idea and think “I’ve worked it out, this is what I should be doing”. However when it comes to weight training it’s the novelty that’s the kick-start, very soon it will become as stale as the old thing you were doing. Every time i’m seeing amazing progress with something I always have to remember the Dan John quote he repeats over and over in “Never Let Go”. Everything works for about 6 weeks.

[Dani_Shugart]

@cdep89

f someone has been training one way for a while and then try something new, new progress can come quickly. It’s very easy to marry that idea and think “I’ve worked it out, this is what I should be doing”.

Absolutely! That’s true too! I think everyone at some point goes through those phases of testing something, marrying it for a while, and then having to figure out why they’re not seeing any new results.

[rugby_lifting]

5 years of physio solved a lot of the symptoms in the end but my crushed discs still give me issues even now. Probably never get 100% but I’m moving and squatting again so I see that as a win.

Cheers for asking

[contract_relax]

I like what you have to say here A LOT. I guess I would say I have an eye toward progression, but I try to not do so at the expense of good feeling, positioning, biomechanics etc. Just my two cents. I really like what you said about getting the various benefits of strength training while not necessarily focusing on progressive overload.