The thing is, I don’t believe that abortion is always the right choice. I think that there should be an education session, from which persons from any religion should be banned due to their inability to be unbiased, educating the women about their options for help without guilt tripping them or even hinting at what they should do. Just allow them to see all of their options. This could take less than an hour.
However, I don’t believe carrying through the pregnancy is always the right choice and I really think that if you believe it is, you are not acknowledging, or perhaps comprehending, that life is not always a gift the receiver is thankful for.
Kneed- I may or may not have worked with a someone who was held down and raped at a party by over 10 guys. Her natural family abused her before that. This happened after her foster family abandoned her to get help for an eating disorder and told her not to contact them while they went off on a vacation to Hawaii. When we put had to put no-pain restraints on her several times a day when she’d go try to kill herself after her Grandma, who was the one person from her birth family she had a good relationship with, died. She would have a panic attack from flashbacks of the rape every time a restraint happened.
If you knew this had a good chance of happening your child, would you have it?
I’m simply arguing that it’s not fair of you to make that decision for someone else, because, just like it wont turn out bad all the time, it wont turn out good all the time either.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
The thing is, I don’t believe that abortion is always the right choice. I think that there should be an education session, from which persons from any religion should be banned due to their inability to be unbiased, educating the women about their options for help without guilt tripping them or even hinting at what they should do. Just allow them to see all of their options. This could take less than an hour.
[/quote]
And where would we find those “unbiased” people and why would they want to be part of this sharade?
The whole Conservatives Vs Liberals inference/distinction point is kinda silly to say the least. Pretty redundant, really.
You don’t need to study much philosophy/politics to realize VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is a hypocrite.
To my mind, less abortions= More shitty parents= More fucked-up kids= A more fucked up future for pretty much everyone.
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
Should we also try banning alcohol, just because SOME people might become alcoholics?
The whole Conservatives Vs Liberals inference/distinction point is kinda silly to say the least. Pretty redundant, really.
You don’t need to study much philosophy/politics to realize VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is a hypocrite.
To my mind, less abortions= More shitty parents= More fucked-up kids= A more fucked up future for pretty much everyone.
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
Should we also try banning alcohol, just because SOME people might become alcoholics? [/quote]
Your ingenious solution: Eugenics!
You are right, I can think of another political party that was similarly enamored of the practice whom most would indeed consider neither today’s “Conservatives” or “Liberals.”
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I think we need a few more t-vixens in hear to see how they feel about someone telling them what they can and cant do with their bodies.[/quote]
Actually, I don’t. I argue that they shouldn’t kill innocent children just because they lack self-control.
[/quote]
So you admit that some people are born with far less self-control than others, and yet hold everyone to the same standard of free will? How does that work? [/quote]
No, even if they didn’t have the same self-control when they were born that doesn’t excuse them from personal responsibility. And, yes they are held to the same standard of responsibility, it’s called laws. Like I said, people who lack self-control in certain aspects usually find themselves inside a prison cell. Last time I check, a lack of self-control isn’t an excuse, it’s a reason why you did it, but definitely not an excuse why you did it.
If I lack self-control when it comes to gambling and I lose my money, then I rob the casino or bank, do I get off because I lack ‘self-control’ to keep my money in my pocket? No, I’m fully responsible for my actions.
No premise is needed on if G-d controls the body or not. I’m not taking this from a religious point of view. I already explained that I don’t argue with atheist with religion, I argue reason and natural law.
As I said no premise is needed about G-d and the body. The premise is that it is wrong to willfully commit an act that has an end of killing an innocent person.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I think we need a few more t-vixens in hear to see how they feel about someone telling them what they can and cant do with their bodies.[/quote]
Why’s that?[/quote]
Because you know we’re talking about women, but how about we get some people that were unborn babies, since that would be the subject of the argument. Oh, look I was one!
We went from talking about the actual events that occur and why the murder of children is wrong. Now we are talking about a completely hypothetical argument. Really? You want to go there?
Rape IMHO is the worst kind of crime imaginable. Right next to abortion. Even my worst enemy in the world does not deserve to be raped. Never once have you told me how a horrendous and violent behavior is made better by perpetuating the act with an even more violent behavior. Something tells me you will never respond to the statement I just made, but you will regarding all the following points shakes head
[quote]Oleena wrote:
The thing is, I don’t believe that abortion is always the right choice.[/quote]
Please enlighten me as to when the slaughter of children is ever excusable? Wait, it is coming . . . .
So you can help a woman wrestle with the decision to abort a child? In under an hour?! Remind me your level of education in the degree, along with practice in the field. And you believe it should be un-biased yet you have already decided that killing a defenseless child is acceptable. How is that NOT biased? My G-d, you and your stance IS biased!
Because they chose to act that way! Where you ever upset when you got a really awesome present for your birthday, but then your lower class, poor friend was ecstatic with a simple gift? Wonder why that would be? Because your friend choose to be HAPPY with the mediocre gift she received. Even Hollywood has made a few movies about the very topic!
So you tied her up more often? They must have taught you that practice in school.
Are you done building up your ‘hypothetical argument’?
Here you are AGAIN determining the future when you do not even know your own.
[quote]I’m simply arguing that it’s not fair of you to make that decision for someone else, because, just like it wont turn out bad all the time, it wont turn out good all the time either.
[/quote]
The option should still be given to THE CHILD!! Take a gander over at my AVI <----- Should I have been aborted because I spent six weeks in a coma and almost died? If I had been aborted I never would have to go through such a dramatic and horrendous day. Would you be happy if you were as fucked up as I was? How about six years later? And guess what? I still consider that single day to be the BEST one in my entire life, all while being my worst. Just because I lost the fight with a car means nothing to me! I still would never trade that day for ALL the great days of my life combined. I love this life, the one I am blessed and fortunate enough to still have. Why do women have the right to dismember a child, tear them literally limb from limb, when the child never experiences this world outside of the womb? Please realize no one knows the outcome of every child before being born into this world. In no way can you ever justify their slaughter.
Are we done with the hypothetical situations now? Maybe go back to reality?
snicker So are you a hypocrite when you determine someone’s future before they even have spent a day in this world? All while you can never determine your own? Oleena can help you build straw men btw. Obviously you need help to do just that.
[quote]GorillaMon wrote: Chuckles
The whole Conservatives Vs Liberals inference/distinction point is kinda silly to say the least. Pretty redundant, really.
You don’t need to study much philosophy/politics to realize VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is a hypocrite.
To my mind, less abortions= More shitty parents= More fucked-up kids= A more fucked up future for pretty much everyone.
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
Should we also try banning alcohol, just because SOME people might become alcoholics? [/quote]
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
[/quote]
First, I don’t think of people as filthy little skanks, especially women. I usually have more respect for women than that. Second, no I don’t think that, the first thing to pop into my head is ‘what a gift! Let’s have a party!’
And, I don’t get this crappy life situation thing, I mean really isn’t that kind of relative. Hell, everything I have is hand-me-downs or was given to me, my parents didn’t have money to buy me electronics, &c.
Psychologically, people at three squares a day and a home aren’t any less happier than people with five course meals and a mansion.
Today, I can say I’m just as happy when my family lived in a shack as where I am now.
No, that’s a little bit of an emotional argument isn’t it? Alcohol isn’t inherently bad. Willfully killing an innocent person is inherently bad.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote: snicker So are you a hypocrite when you determine someone’s future before they even have spent a day in this world? All while you can never determine your own? Oleena can help you build straw men btw. Obviously you need help to do just that.
I think you missed the point dude. Either that or you need to learn how to phrase your replies much better.
‘All while you can never determine your own?’
^Nonsensical statement^^
[quote]GorillaMon wrote: Chuckles
The whole Conservatives Vs Liberals inference/distinction point is kinda silly to say the least. Pretty redundant, really.
You don’t need to study much philosophy/politics to realize VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is a hypocrite.
To my mind, less abortions= More shitty parents= More fucked-up kids= A more fucked up future for pretty much everyone.
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
Should we also try banning alcohol, just because SOME people might become alcoholics? [/quote]
[/quote]
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
[/quote]
First, I don’t think of people as filthy little skanks, especially women. I usually have more respect for women than that. Second, no I don’t think that, the first thing to pop into my head is ‘what a gift! Let’s have a party!’
When I say ‘filthy little skank’ I’m referencing women who are in all likelihood not going to be the best of mothers. NOT women generally.
And, I don’t get this crappy life situation thing, I mean really isn’t that kind of relative. Hell, everything I have is hand-me-downs or was given to me, my parents didn’t have money to buy me electronics, &c.
Psychologically, people at three squares a day and a home aren’t any less happier than people with five course meals and a mansion.
Today, I can say I’m just as happy when my family lived in a shack as where I am now.
I wasn’t thinking specifically about money. I was thinking more about the age, character & maturity etc of the pregnant girl in question.
No, that’s a little bit of an emotional argument isn’t it? Alcohol isn’t inherently bad. Willfully killing an innocent person is inherently bad.[/quote]
Actually, I don’t. I argue that they shouldn’t kill innocent children just because they lack self-control.
[/quote]
So you admit that some people are born with far less self-control than others, and yet hold everyone to the same standard of free will? How does that work? [/quote]
No, even if they didn’t have the same self-control when they were born that doesn’t excuse them from personal responsibility. And, yes they are held to the same standard of responsibility, it’s called laws. Like I said, people who lack self-control in certain aspects usually find themselves inside a prison cell. Last time I check, a lack of self-control isn’t an excuse, it’s a reason why you did it, but definitely not an excuse why you did it.
If I lack self-control when it comes to gambling and I lose my money, then I rob the casino or bank, do I get off because I lack ‘self-control’ to keep my money in my pocket? No, I’m fully responsible for my actions.[/quote]
What?! Lack of self-control (aka “crazy”) is one of the biggest excuses people use to get less time for offenses or even let completely off the hook. The court system acknowledges that not everyone can be held to the same standard.
But if a bipolar 13 year old puts herself in a situation where she’s raped by a likely also crazy guy (because you’d have to be crazy and lack self control to rape in the first place), you would hold her to the same standard as yourself? That’s unreasonable.
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
I don’t see an unborn baby as a person.
[/quote]
Thank you for sharing with the class. And, why do you not see an unborn baby as a person?[/quote]
Lack of self-awareness. [/quote]
Also, an unborn child has only experienced complete love, warmth, and being taken care of, which it doesn’t think about or understand. That’s on par with everything described by many sources as what happens to a good person when you die. That experience (of being in the womb) is not anything like being a person who has been born and knows the difference between need and want, pain and pleasure, etc.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote: snicker So are you a hypocrite when you determine someone’s future before they even have spent a day in this world? All while you can never determine your own? Oleena can help you build straw men btw. Obviously you need help to do just that.
[quote]GorillaMon wrote: Chuckles
The whole Conservatives Vs Liberals inference/distinction point is kinda silly to say the least. Pretty redundant, really.
You don’t need to study much philosophy/politics to realize VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is a hypocrite.
To my mind, less abortions= More shitty parents= More fucked-up kids= A more fucked up future for pretty much everyone.
Seriously, what sane minded person doesn’t cringe at least a little bit when they find out some filthy little skank IS going have yet another baby, born into yet another crappy life situation??
Should we also try banning alcohol, just because SOME people might become alcoholics? [/quote]
[/quote]
Can you see in anything other than absolutes? We keep going around in the same circle, over and over and over. You say a life could turn out good then therefore, I’m at fault to say abortion of okay. I say yes, it could turn out good, it could also turn out bad, and I am not the right person to decide the chances in each case so why don’t we leave that up to the parents? And no, not all of them are going to not get pregnant even though they know their child didn’t have good chances. Not everyone has the same self-control.
The eugenics argument is stupid, as letting a parent decide about their own young is NOT the same thing as a government deciding for the parent. Prolifer’s seem to struggle with the ability to grasp the fact that leaving the decision up to the parent isn’t the same thing as the prochoicer making the decision for the parent.