Pro-LIFE Birth Control

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Can you name 1 law that our government has take to the most extreme conclusion?[/quote]

I don’t know if the U.S. government has taken any law to its most extreme conclusion yet. The lords of this manor seem to be aware that it’s easier to let the ignorant masses tighten their noose at their own pace than it is to tighten it themselves and risk having the masses fight back, take off the noose, and leave the platform.

The income tax and drug laws/penalties are examples of laws that have gotten stiffer(far) over time.

82

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

You know Sloth, I didn’t malign Catholic belief at all. I didnt malign belief in God, or prayer, or sin, or marriage.[/quote]

Wouldn’t matter if you did, I’m not offended. But my point–well, my question really–was why in the world isn’t all the rest of it “bullshit.” I mean, I believe pre-marital sex, porn, masturbation, adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, etc., etc., are all sinful. And, again, I believe in sin, good and evil, yadda, yadda. I just thought it strange that THIS was the straw that broke the camel’s back. My response wasn’t meant to be read as lashing out.

I honestly wasn’t expecting or looking for an apology. An apology, even the need for one, never crossed my mind. I’m an observant Catholic, so your response to me is common.

I didn’t suspect it was. Again, my response isn’t meant to be read as an angry retort.

I sort of got the impression you felt that way…

[quote]However, I still want you to explain to me why it is a sin for a married Christian couple to use condoms. Because whether you like it or not it is NOT the condom but when or how you use it. A condom is an inanimate object. By default it can neither be morally good or bad. You can no more say a condom is evil, sinful, or “a moral wrong against the self” than you can say a gun is evil, sinful, a moral wrong to use. You could say it can be USED for evil, but that does not make the thing itself evil.

I am still putting the question to you, and I still want to hear an explanation because it doesn’t jive. It doesn’t jive at all.
[/quote]

I don’t post nearly as much anymore. And I tend now not to make the lengthy posts I used to. And, with the semester going, I have to be even more disciplined. Anything I might say, will probably already be found below.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0663.html

Ich machte Hausaufgaben jetzt fur (u-umlaut) deutsch Vorlesung.

Auf wiedersehen!

Feel free to pick it apart, german speakers! I’d welcome it. Just keep in mind, this is the first month of my first semester of german.

[/quote]

Semester?

As in, at university?

Pfft. Commie elitist.

:wink:

83

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Can you name 1 law that our government has take to the most extreme conclusion?[/quote]

I don’t know if the U.S. government has taken any law to its most extreme conclusion yet. The lords of this manor seem to be aware that it’s easier to let the ignorant masses tighten their noose at their own pace than it is to tighten it themselves and risk having the masses fight back, take off the noose, and leave the platform.

The income tax and drug laws/penalties are examples of laws that have gotten stiffer(far) over time.[/quote]

So the U.S. government is actually moderate.

Income tax rates have been higher in the past and Marijuana has been legalized in parts of the country very recently.

84

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I just thought it strange that THIS was the straw that broke the camel’s back.[/quote]

This is a thread–nominally, anyway–about the pro-life position. It has nothing to do with any of the other things you mentioned except inasmuch as they bear on the topic of the reprehensibility of abortion. Birth control goes with abortion conversations typically, hence it was on topic and the the thing I comment on.

Yes, well I’m not responding to your Catholicism or belief in God. I’m not responding to the pro-life position, which I share, and I don’t have Tiribulus sized Catholic disgust. I’m not responding to any of that so as an observant Catholic I really just want your opinion on the question I asked, with YOUR reasons.

[quote][quote]However, I still want you to explain to me why it is a sin for a married Christian couple to use condoms. Because whether you like it or not it is NOT the condom but when or how you use it. A condom is an inanimate object. By default it can neither be morally good or bad. You can no more say a condom is evil, sinful, or “a moral wrong against the self” than you can say a gun is evil, sinful, a moral wrong to use. You could say it can be USED for evil, but that does not make the thing itself evil.
[/quote]

I don’t post nearly as much anymore. And I tend now not to make the lengthy posts I used to. And, with the semester going, I have to be even more disciplined. Anything I might say, will probably already be found below.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0663.html[/quote]

After reading the first tract I am convinced we can never see eye to eye on this. I simply do not accept anything they said, and can never possibly see myself accepting this thought process (again within marriage).

I do not see God as saying to a broke, financially unstable couple “well, you guys got married, and you SHOULD be able to fulfill your consummation, but you’re it’s wrong that you’re preventing the possibility of a child from being born by using a condom, so you just can’t have sex or be intimate at all until you’re financially stable”. That does not make the tiniest bit of sense to me.

The prize for working to fulfill your obligations to God and future spouse is more obligation and rules? You didn’t get freedom, you just got more damned rules? No. Just no. Not just no but hell no.

85

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
So the U.S. government is actually moderate.

Income tax rates have been higher in the past and Marijuana has been legalized in parts of the country very recently. [/quote]

No absolute ruler is moderate. This one is just smart enough to let the majority ignorantly decide how much it can control at any time.

Our government has powers that no individual has. From where are those powers derived?

86

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Our government has powers that no individual has. From where are those powers derived? [/quote]

From anarchy: From the brute fact of life that the strong do what they want and the weak do what they must. From the fact that no laws and rights exists other than those which are natural (gravity) and those which the strong write and enforce with the sword.

87

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
So the U.S. government is actually moderate.

Income tax rates have been higher in the past and Marijuana has been legalized in parts of the country very recently. [/quote]

[quote]NickViar wrote:
No absolute ruler is moderate. This one is just smart enough to let the majority ignorantly decide how much it can control at any time. [/quote]

Who is this absolute ruler? The president, SCOTUS, Congress, the state governments, etc…?

Oh you mean the government in general…

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Our government has powers that no individual has. From where are those powers derived? [/quote]

Us. You said so yourself.

88

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

You know Sloth, I didn’t malign Catholic belief at all. I didnt malign belief in God, or prayer, or sin, or marriage.[/quote]

Wouldn’t matter if you did, I’m not offended. But my point–well, my question really–was why in the world isn’t all the rest of it “bullshit.” I mean, I believe pre-marital sex, porn, masturbation, adultery, homosexuality, prostitution, etc., etc., are all sinful. And, again, I believe in sin, good and evil, yadda, yadda. I just thought it strange that THIS was the straw that broke the camel’s back. My response wasn’t meant to be read as lashing out.

I honestly wasn’t expecting or looking for an apology. An apology, even the need for one, never crossed my mind. I’m an observant Catholic, so your response to me is common.

I didn’t suspect it was. Again, my response isn’t meant to be read as an angry retort.

I sort of got the impression you felt that way…

[quote]However, I still want you to explain to me why it is a sin for a married Christian couple to use condoms. Because whether you like it or not it is NOT the condom but when or how you use it. A condom is an inanimate object. By default it can neither be morally good or bad. You can no more say a condom is evil, sinful, or “a moral wrong against the self” than you can say a gun is evil, sinful, a moral wrong to use. You could say it can be USED for evil, but that does not make the thing itself evil.

I am still putting the question to you, and I still want to hear an explanation because it doesn’t jive. It doesn’t jive at all.
[/quote]

I don’t post nearly as much anymore. And I tend now not to make the lengthy posts I used to. And, with the semester going, I have to be even more disciplined. Anything I might say, will probably already be found below.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0663.html

Ich machte Hausaufgaben jetzt fur (u-umlaut) deutsch Vorlesung.

Auf wiedersehen!

Feel free to pick it apart, german speakers! I’d welcome it. Just keep in mind, this is the first month of my first semester of german.

[/quote]

Semester?

As in, at university?

Pfft. Commie elitist.

;)[/quote]

Yep, I’m one of those older students. I’m SUPPOSED to be concentrating on a reading assignment right now.

Commie…I don’t know about that, but I have been taught that she is a he, a he is a she, or some such thing. Gender is a social construct waah waahwaah waahwa (Charlie Brown’s teacher droning on noise). Oh, and I had to read this only last week.

http://www.earthcharterinaction.org/content/pages/Read-the-Charter.html

So, I am getting a good progressive education. In one ear and out the other!

89

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Our government has powers that no individual has. From where are those powers derived? [/quote]

From anarchy: From the brute fact of life that the strong do what they want and the weak do what they must. From the fact that no laws and rights exists other than those which are natural (gravity) and those which the strong write and enforce with the sword.[/quote]

When the vast majority believes it’s weaker than a small minority, it accepts a lot. God made men, Sam Colt made them equal.

90

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

After reading the first tract I am convinced we can never see eye to eye on this.[/quote]

Yeah, I suspected as much. These things will happen.

91

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Who is this absolute ruler? The president, SCOTUS, Congress, the state governments, etc…?

Oh you mean the government in general… [/quote]
Yes, the whole government. No form of government works forever in favor of the people. All those parts you mentioned are now working together against the people.

Nobody can give powers to another that he doesn’t have himself. Not legitimately. If you want to argue that’s just how things go(like smh), that’s fine. At one time, some of the inhabitants of this land mass didn’t agree.

92

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Who is this absolute ruler? The president, SCOTUS, Congress, the state governments, etc…?

Oh you mean the government in general… [/quote]
Yes, the whole government. No form of government works forever in favor of the people. All those parts you mentioned are now working together against the people.

Nobody can give powers to another that he doesn’t have himself. Not legitimately. If you want to argue that’s just how things go(like smh), that’s fine. At one time, some of the inhabitants of this land mass didn’t agree. [/quote]

All those parts are working together against the people? Ok…

The 330+ million of us most definitely give our government it’s power, legitimately, via the constitution.

93

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

Our government has powers that no individual has. From where are those powers derived? [/quote]

From anarchy: From the brute fact of life that the strong do what they want and the weak do what they must. From the fact that no laws and rights exists other than those which are natural (gravity) and those which the strong write and enforce with the sword.[/quote]

When the vast majority believes it’s weaker than a small minority, it accepts a lot. God made men, Sam Colt made them equal. [/quote]

And then William E. Boeing and J. Robert Oppenheimer made them unequal again.

94

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
And then William E. Boeing and J. Robert Oppenheimer made them unequal again.[/quote]

Do rulers want a large piece of land, or do rulers want to rule people? If rulers just want land, it seems the earth could already be a nearly-unpopulated sheet of glass.

A bullet to the head tends to decrease one’s desire to rule, anyway.

Additionally, haven’t we heard many times that those piloting jets would side with the people against our rulers if it comes to that?

95

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

“Moderate” has become a cuss word in both parties as one has to prove how far left or how far right they are on everything. This does not bode well for us.

I don’t view myself as moderate on some things, but I truly believe it is usually the best way to govern a large population. [/quote]

Well in general I would agree with you, but there are some things in which moderation is a major cop-out. I view abortion as one of these. However I also view kneedragger’s stance as both fringe extremism(as opposed to ‘solidly in one camp’, which is the only truly ethical way to approach a question of life and death–fence riding is bullshit) and patently ludicrous, both scientifically and otherwise.
[/quote]

Extreme people sometimes find themselves in some extreme situations.

  • There is a family in my area that has 7 children.
  • They oppose birth control for religious reasons. I don’t know what specific religion they are.
  • FOUR of their boys have profound mental retardation and physical disabilities due to a genetic
    disorder. Wheelchair dependent, in need of nursing care around the clock.
  • They accept medical treatment and benefit from scientific advances in terms of medications,
    oxygen, and tube feeding these kids to try to prolong life.
  • They rely on government assistance to help with their care, SS/IHSS, and so forth. A family
    like that would bankrupt almost anybody.

So, sometimes these ethical positions become pretty tough in the real world. I wondered how the father would have handled it if his wife decided to use birth control, or have her tubes tied because she couldn’t bear watching another kid die a slow death. I assume they believe in marriage, so divorcing his wife is probably not a great option. Many of us feel a strong responsibility to care for our own kids. I wondered how they felt about loosing their financial independence, knowing that they were always going to require government assistance to afford nursing care and such.

Also, I wondered about how someone can determine that some scientific advances are good, and even accept that medical technology may be a gift from a benevolent God. If you believe that God is the light of the world, and is the source of light and truth, then maybe scientific/ medical knowledge is a gift from Him. People often express gratitude for life saving procedures, or pray that their surgeon will be guided. Maybe birth control in this instance would be a gift to that family.

To clarify, I’m talking about birth control here. Not talking about justification for abortion of disabled kids, which is another topic. I don’t equate birth control with abortion. FYI, I have a 16-year-old daughter with severe mental and physical disabilities myself, which is why I know about the family mentioned above.

96

Certain extremes I simply don’t agree with, but from a limited government standard I’m not sure how best to handle them. For instance my fiance went a small conservative school (just like I did, but here’s was even more conservative…both public schools in small areas of Kansas). Anyways she had a kid in the class below her whose parents did not believe or have him get modern medicine. He was covered in chicken pock scars (because they just used prayer) and almost died when he was 16 because of some crap that modern medicine would have easily cleared up. Luckily as an adult he can now make those decisions for himself and not be nutty enough to rely on the New Testament for healing like his parents did.

Now…Part of me thinks the government needs to stay out of people’s private lives and beliefs. The other part of me thinks that kid needed to be taken away from parents who were clearly neglectful of his well being and put his life at risk.

That kind of extremism in my opinion is highly dangerous and though I view myself as a stay out government guy our system is full of examples where I catch myself wondering what I TRULY believe about what people should and should not be allowed to do.

As usual my thoughts and ideas are evolving as I think more and listen to more discussion.

97

Killing innocent children is NEVER acceptable, in any situation. Even the number of women raped (account for less than a quarter of percent and a quarter of that number, very tiny, tiny number of abortions) you cannot kill someone for the crimes of their father. Abortion advocates say that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. A single trait out of three would logically dictate that something needs to change.

Look to the three countries where abortion is banned and tell me the problems they posses that America would have if contraceptives were banned.

Barriers like condoms or diaphragms are something I have no qualms with. Contraceptives are what I am talking about. They do NOT stop the creation of life, they kill innocent women and children. The worst portion, society is fine with innocent life being destroyed.

98

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Killing innocent children is NEVER acceptable, in any situation. Even the number of women raped (account for less than a quarter of percent and a quarter of that number, very tiny, tiny number of abortions) you cannot kill someone for the crimes of their father. Abortion advocates say that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. A single trait out of three would logically dictate that something needs to change.

Look to the three countries where abortion is banned and tell me the problems they posses that America would have if contraceptives were banned.

Barriers like condoms or diaphragms are something I have no qualms with. Contraceptives are what I am talking about. They do NOT stop the creation of life, they kill innocent women and children. The worst portion, society is fine with innocent life being destroyed.
[/quote]

Do yourself a favor and study what happened to abortion rates in Romania when it was made illegal and contraceptives were outlawed.

If you want more abortions let’s get rid of ways to have sex safely.

You can be against whatever you want…but thank goodness you aren’t making decisions for the nation.

And finally at what point in history has something been made illegal and that ended it? Did that work with Prohibition? Did it work with marijuana? Do you HONESTLY believe abortion ends when you make it illegal? It has taken place throughout history. Let’s work to limit the rate by avoiding unwanted pregnancies instead of outlawing something which just makes it dangerous and leads to two deaths (mom and child) instead of one.

99

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

Barriers like condoms or diaphragms are something I have no qualms with. Contraceptives are what I am talking about. They do NOT stop the creation of life, they kill innocent women and children. The worst portion, society is fine with innocent life being destroyed.
[/quote]

Ok kneedragger, thank you for the somewhat direct answer to the question I posed above. Now will you please tell me–scientifically–why contraceptives kill innocent children (I assume you are talking about the unborn here) and do not stop the creation of life?

I have already posted a direct rebuttal to your claim that hormonal contraceptives do not prevent ovulation (they do, or the vast vast majority of options out there do–that is specifically what they are designed to do) and that they do not prevent sperm from fertilizing the egg (they do, as a secondary measure–the internal environment of the uterus and cervix is modified to create a barrier to swimmers through mucus, pH, and other means).

100

[quote]H factor wrote:
And finally at what point in history has something been made illegal and that ended it? [/quote]

Obviously the answer to this question is never, but I don’t think it’s a good position to argue from. We make certain activities illegal to both discourage those activities and punish those that still partake in said activities. As far as abortion goes, (and let me be clear I think Knuckledragger is a bit nuts) I do think making abortion illegal would discourage some from having abortions, which from my perspective is a good thing.

Will making abortions illegal fix the problem? No, of course not. There are many other things to consider such as sex education, availability of contraception, socioeconomic conditions, etc… That said, I still think the vast majority of abortions should be made illegal whether people will illegally pursue them or not.

Unlike the OP, I live in reality, so in cases of abuse and rape I completely understand why abortion should be legal. I still think it’s wrong, but who the hell am I to tell a rape victim to carry a illegitimate child to term that was force-ably put there? Plus I have never been in a situation where anyone I know has dealt with such a fucked up situation, so I’m not going to judge what a person in that situation does.