Privacy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

Something interesting on how Spitzer was caught - the original investigation was prompted by banking transactions.

Apparently banks use algorithms to analyze transactions, and report anything suspicious to the Feds.

I don’t think this is actually post-Patriot Act, as the NPR story states. The Bank reporting statutes have been in place since the 1970s, and were originally targeting organized crime and drugs, which have a huge problem of how to store and transfer their ill-gotten gains.

Still, my visceral reaction to this is to be troubled - the technology at the fingertips of the government today is much stronger than in the past, and we need to consider whether to amend the Constitution to give an actual right to privacy. It’s important that the criminal justice system investigate crimes, not people.

2

It’s not just the banks.

I purchased a few pieces of furniture not too long ago. Later in the day, after swiping my card in a self-serve fuel pump, I was informed I had to see the cashier.

Turns out VISA had flagged my “larger than normal” purchase of furniture as suspicious (“out of the ordinary” is how the nice lady put it) and wanted to confirm I was still the one in possession of my card.

I didn’t feel particularly violated, but it was still interesting to be chatting on the phone with a perfect stranger who was asking me to confirm my large purchase of the morning… and to think that somewhere a machine is making decisions about whether my purchases are “normal” enough to be allowed to proceed unimpeded.

3

Between the Banking, Insurance, and Communication industries we don’t really have the opportunity to lead both private and modern lives these days.

Banking - All of our financial information.
Insurance - All of our health information.
Communication - Most of our personal interactions. i.e. cell phones, computers,etc

Allow these industries (or require them) to share our information and the consequences are vast. We seem to be well on our way.

4

[quote]pookie wrote:
It’s not just the banks.

I purchased a few pieces of furniture not too long ago. Later in the day, after swiping my card in a self-serve fuel pump, I was informed I had to see the cashier.

Turns out VISA had flagged my “larger than normal” purchase of furniture as suspicious (“out of the ordinary” is how the nice lady put it) and wanted to confirm I was still the one in possession of my card.

I didn’t feel particularly violated, but it was still interesting to be chatting on the phone with a perfect stranger who was asking me to confirm my large purchase of the morning… and to think that somewhere a machine is making decisions about whether my purchases are “normal” enough to be allowed to proceed unimpeded.

[/quote]

I’m pretty sure you can ask credit card companies to not monitor for fraud.

If it bothers you tell them to stop, if the idea of someone stealing your card and charging thousands before you notice, go for the fraud monitoring.

5

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
I’m pretty sure you can ask credit card companies to not monitor for fraud.

If it bothers you tell them to stop, if the idea of someone stealing your card and charging thousands before you notice, go for the fraud monitoring. [/quote]

It doesn’t really bother me. It’s just that you generally go through your daily routine without really thinking about all the “information crumbs” you leave around.

Having a stranger ask you on the phone about that large purchase you just made a few hours ago brings it back into focus.

I’ve worked with retailers, and it’s a very common practice to “data mine,” for example, all the invoices of the past 2 years to extract the customers who have made the largest purchases and the most repeat visits; or who have bought certain types of product. Targeted mailings are often done based on that information.

The information available to credit card companies must be rather incredible. It would be interesting to list everything that can be deduced about someone’s lifestyle just from his purchases.

6

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Still, my visceral reaction to this is to be troubled - the technology at the fingertips of the government today is much stronger than in the past, and we need to consider whether to amend the Constitution to give an actual right to privacy. It’s important that the criminal justice system investigate crimes, not people.[/quote]

I got into an argument with a lawyer who really felt that we have no expectation of privacy with regard to regulated institutions such as banks. Perhaps that is true, but it doesn´t make it right…

7

This is along those lines…my dad bought my mum an expensive purse for xmas this past Decemeber and within two hours, AMEX has emailed him making sure the purchase was legitimate.

Now, let’s be sure that there are two ways of looking at this. The first is, fuck yeah, I want a computer making sure I am buying predictably. The seond is, shit no, I do not want a computer predicting my predictability (however weird that sounds). No matter how you feel, though, it’s the future of having a major credit card and the accompanying privacy issues.

8

[quote]new2training wrote:
Between the Banking, Insurance, and Communication industries we don’t really have the opportunity to lead both private and modern lives these days.

Banking - All of our financial information.
Insurance - All of our health information.
Communication - Most of our personal interactions. i.e. cell phones, computers,etc

Allow these industries (or require them) to share our information and the consequences are vast. We seem to be well on our way.
[/quote]

Agreed. It will only get more invasive. The more we move to a more technologically advanced society, the more we will simply become automatons, too afraid to act out of the norm at any given time due to surveillance.

It’s the same issue tackled in most sci fi movies when it comes to the reliance on machines. Once every transaction, be it health or financial, is accessible by the reading of one bar code, we will be satisfying quite a few prophecies…if you believe in such things.

It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.

9

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.[/quote]

I was trying to figure out a way to say this exact thing.

Good post.

10

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.[/quote]

I think the best approach is to make sure laws are in place to control how our information is used and to have recourses in case of abuse.

We should also have the right to know exactly what information is kept about us both by government and private sector companies. We should also be able to ask that no information about us be kept longer than a certain period, except of course, for medical records and other information where life history is important. In the case of a credit card company, it doesn’t need to remember all we’ve bought in the past 15 years or more.

We should be informed when two companies exchange information about us, or when they provide the government with information. Basically, we should know what is known about us and who knows it. Provisions should be made so that we can specify we do not wish information to be sold for marketing purposes.

Some exceptions will of course have to be possible, so as not to give a heads up to criminals being investigated. It’s not a simple problem, but I’d rather we err on the side of the ordinary citizen rather than law enforcement. Maybe judges could issue special kinds of warrants allowing information to be collected and used during investigations without the subject being made aware. There would at least be some judicial oversight.

Finally, we also need a way to correct bad information. Even though most of it is handled by computers, there is still a lot of human input involved, and thus errors are made. Software programs also have bugs so information about us can be from partly to completely wrong. Ways of having those mistakes corrected need to be available to us.

We can’t really roll back the clock, and furthermore a lot of the technology also has net benefits. For better or worse, we’ll have to live with it. We better make sure that we have full access and recourse to prevent and correct abuses.

11

[quote]nephorm wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Still, my visceral reaction to this is to be troubled - the technology at the fingertips of the government today is much stronger than in the past, and we need to consider whether to amend the Constitution to give an actual right to privacy. It’s important that the criminal justice system investigate crimes, not people.

I got into an argument with a lawyer who really felt that we have no expectation of privacy with regard to regulated institutions such as banks. Perhaps that is true, but it doesn´t make it right…[/quote]

You mean you don’t have to like it.

12

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.

I think the best approach is to make sure laws are in place to control how our information is used and to have recourses in case of abuse.

We should also have the right to know exactly what information is kept about us both by government and private sector companies. We should also be able to ask that no information about us be kept longer than a certain period, except of course, for medical records and other information where life history is important. In the case of a credit card company, it doesn’t need to remember all we’ve bought in the past 15 years or more.

We should be informed when two companies exchange information about us, or when they provide the government with information. Basically, we should know what is known about us and who knows it. Provisions should be made so that we can specify we do not wish information to be sold for marketing purposes.

Some exceptions will of course have to be possible, so as not to give a heads up to criminals being investigated. It’s not a simple problem, but I’d rather we err on the side of the ordinary citizen rather than law enforcement. Maybe judges could issue special kinds of warrants allowing information to be collected and used during investigations without the subject being made aware. There would at least be some judicial oversight.

Finally, we also need a way to correct bad information. Even though most of it is handled by computers, there is still a lot of human input involved, and thus errors are made. Software programs also have bugs so information about us can be from partly to completely wrong. Ways of having those mistakes corrected need to be available to us.

We can’t really roll back the clock, and furthermore a lot of the technology also has net benefits. For better or worse, we’ll have to live with it. We better make sure that we have full access and recourse to prevent and correct abuses.
[/quote]

France (www.cnil.fr) has been doing this since 1978.

13

Perhaps the way to go isn’t so much as trying to force back the trend of private information becoming easy to access and public, but to make it even easier to do so.

Egalitarian in a sense.

14

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.

I was trying to figure out a way to say this exact thing.

Good post. [/quote]

Poignant.

Well said.

15

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It bothers me but I don’t know what can be done about it on a grand scale. Society won’t give up convenience for more privacy. We want it all right now and we will sell our souls to make sure we get it.

I think the best approach is to make sure laws are in place to control how our information is used and to have recourses in case of abuse.

We should also have the right to know exactly what information is kept about us both by government and private sector companies. We should also be able to ask that no information about us be kept longer than a certain period, except of course, for medical records and other information where life history is important. In the case of a credit card company, it doesn’t need to remember all we’ve bought in the past 15 years or more.

We should be informed when two companies exchange information about us, or when they provide the government with information. Basically, we should know what is known about us and who knows it. Provisions should be made so that we can specify we do not wish information to be sold for marketing purposes.

Some exceptions will of course have to be possible, so as not to give a heads up to criminals being investigated. It’s not a simple problem, but I’d rather we err on the side of the ordinary citizen rather than law enforcement. Maybe judges could issue special kinds of warrants allowing information to be collected and used during investigations without the subject being made aware. There would at least be some judicial oversight.

Finally, we also need a way to correct bad information. Even though most of it is handled by computers, there is still a lot of human input involved, and thus errors are made. Software programs also have bugs so information about us can be from partly to completely wrong. Ways of having those mistakes corrected need to be available to us.

We can’t really roll back the clock, and furthermore a lot of the technology also has net benefits. For better or worse, we’ll have to live with it. We better make sure that we have full access and recourse to prevent and correct abuses.
[/quote]

I agree with every thing you say here. Very well thought out. I imagine there are some very powerful lobbies that would oppose such measures though.

Unfortunately I think it will have to get worse before it gets better. As a group, people seem to be very complacent about these types of things.

16

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
nephorm wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Still, my visceral reaction to this is to be troubled - the technology at the fingertips of the government today is much stronger than in the past, and we need to consider whether to amend the Constitution to give an actual right to privacy. It’s important that the criminal justice system investigate crimes, not people.

I got into an argument with a lawyer who really felt that we have no expectation of privacy with regard to regulated institutions such as banks. Perhaps that is true, but it doesn´t make it right…

You mean you don’t have to like it.[/quote]

“Right” as in just. But, yes, a sloppily written sentence.

17

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
nephorm wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Still, my visceral reaction to this is to be troubled - the technology at the fingertips of the government today is much stronger than in the past, and we need to consider whether to amend the Constitution to give an actual right to privacy. It’s important that the criminal justice system investigate crimes, not people.

I got into an argument with a lawyer who really felt that we have no expectation of privacy with regard to regulated institutions such as banks. Perhaps that is true, but it doesn´t make it right…

You mean you don’t have to like it.

“Right” as in just. But, yes, a sloppily written sentence.[/quote]

It is just from the banks and the governments standpoint.

When we are forced to use financial institutions for every transaction then we will officially have problems. It has begun already.

18

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
When we are forced to use financial institutions for every transaction then we will officially have problems. It has begun already. [/quote]

Are you referring to those credit card commercials where all the good little consumers are dancing around in perfect order, like good little automatons, until some asshole fucks everything up by trying to pay with cash?