[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:
No hater here. Just observer. And before we get into the “Chick” questions, the first time I read those was when DF linked to them.
- Monkeys in a monkey house would be an apt description of just about any religion or denomination.
- I’m glad to hear you say that works don’t save but my question is what does the Roman Catholic post vatican II teach? Baptism is necessary for salvation. Is the act of baptizing not a work? What about the “following of the natural law” as well as faith? “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation.” You are adding a lot to salvation there. And, of course, you must partake of the sacraments as well for they are “necessary for salvation”. Is that not a physical act as well, or work?
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You have to understand right now, my head is in a fog because I’ve been working non-stop for four weeks. And, my mind is slipping so I’ll try to come up with a short answer, as you can see in the immigrant thread, that last night I just did a mental dump on MaximusB, which if you’re reading this MaximusB: I am sorry.
James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
2:24 faith alone: Faith by itself is “dead” (2:17), “barren” (2:20), and has no power to “save” anyone (2:14). In the NT, the expression “faith alone” occurs only in James, where it is rejected as false teaching. Paul often stresses the importance of “justification by faith”, but he nowhere speaks of justification by faith alone (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:15-16).
So, we are justified by faith and works, but does that mean we are saved? I say no, some say yes. In my prideful nature, I say they are wrong. Without Jesus, would faith and works have the power to save? No, so only Jesus saves us. However, as Eph 2:6-10 says there are works we should be concerned with and doing.
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- Purgatory is never described in scripture. Where is the basis of belief other than the former Councils and Vatican teachings?[/quote]
Well, let’s see what I can wrangle up, and what is wrong with former councils, didn’t former councils give us the Bible?
Rev 21:27, “nothing unclean shall enter it.” There is the thing that if we die with our mortal sins forgiven, we can still go to heaven. But we have to fix our mess though.
Heb 9:27 shows us that there are two judgments. Augustine tells us that temporary (def. temporal) punishments are suffered by some this life, by others after death, and some both now and then, but all of them before the last and strictest judgement.
Luke 12:59 tells us that we’ll never get out of the hell of the dead, purgatory, purgatorio, whatever the Orthodox call it until we pay the very last penny (or copper).
Monica asked Augustine (her son) to remember her in the Masses. It wouldn’t make sense to ask her to remember her if she wouldn’t benefit from the prayers, which if you’re in Heaven you don’t need prayers because your saved, and if you’re in Hell you don’t need prayers because you can’t be saved.
Also, tombs or catacombs had graffiti during the first three centuries show prayers for the dead. Again, people in both Heaven and Hell don’t need prayers.
in 1 Peter 3:19, “in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.” The Church takes this as Jesus in Purgatory with the spirits. No reason to go to Hell to talk to spirits, their souls are damned forever.
Also in Matthew 12:32, Jesus refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” which suggests that one can be freed from his punishment from one’s sins.
1 Cor 3:15, Paul talks about man’s works will be tried after he dies, where are they going to be tried…if he’s in Heaven he’s not going to get kicked out, and Hell he’s staying there forever. Heaven specifically because their is no suffering or fire there.
Plus there is 2 Macc 12:43-45: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin”
The Jews believed in Purgatory, and history shows us that early Christians did. Even though they didn’t call it purgatory, but purgatory can be called anything, it is the concept and being humans we gave it a name.
So, I don’t put a bunch of stuff on here I’ll just give you a link I found: http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Of course indulgences are accepted and encouraged, I just did a plenary indulgence on All Soul’s Day. I try to do one once a week after I go to confession and take communion.
Yes, it is good to do indulgences for those in purgatory so as to easy their temporal punishment.
Yes, it will clean us of our sins, as we are perfected in the presence of the Lord. However, that does not mean that we don’t have stuff before that we need to do before taking Eucharist. The Bible says that before we give our gift/sacrifice that we have our brother forgive us.
Basically, goes something like this. We are absolved of our sins, we are no longer guilty of our sins, we take communion so we are cleaned of our sins, made perfect in the Lord’s presences, indulgence or purgatory cleans up the mess.
By the way, sorry if I didn’t answer your question, your source is a little confusing, can I get a link to it so I can read what it says to put it in context.
You can be free of all sin and still make it into purgatory. Where did you get your stuff from? I’d like to see what this is, I have a feeling it is a Catechism.
Think of it like this, if I went to my father’s house (earthy father) and I spilled OJ. And, I tell my father I am sorry, of course he’s going to forgive me. However, the spill has to be cleaned up. That is purgatory. It’s kind of abstract, but that’s as basic as I can get. When we sin we hurt others and we have to fix that, either through punishment now or later, or both.
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This is a bit of a convoluted mess isn’t it?
Hater? My friend you have no idea of the road I have traveled spiritually. And I have no idea of the road you have traveled. But don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.[/quote]
I have no clue what you’re talking about, I don’t know if you have seen what flack I get…on these forums…by people that call themselves my friends for being Catholic. I assume everyone hates me because I’m Catholic, and that is fine. It is easy to hate something you don’t know or understand.[/quote]
I dont’ have time to fully respond other than to say that this is my source: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
