Press 1 For English

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
those kinda people, much like your stereotypical rednecks in southern states, are always easy victims for nationalistic/exclusionary policies/propaganda. [/quote]

Hmmm. I think this is the first time I’ve been compared to a redneck.

Let me get a beer from the double-wide and we’ll go shoot some varmints.

Being stuck in Canada is not the worse situation possible. I think the nationalist sentiment is stronger than 50%; but most people are afraid of potential uncomfort during the transition. I wish they had a bit more intestinal fortitude, but I can’t really blame them.

82

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
I know most French speaking Canadians live in Quebec. It seems to me however that if they can only transact with their government in French while in Quebec, that this puts them at a disadvantage as Canadians.

It also seems to me that providing a modest level of support for doing business in French in most government offices need not be the same as demanding that all civil servants speak French. Small offices in predominately English speaking areas could make do with remote bilingual operators, since in these places the demand for service in French will be very low.[/quote]

i think you’re missing my point. what gives french-speaking canadians entitlement to government service in french over the needs of cantonese or mandarin speaking canadians getting government service in cantonese or mandarin outside of vancouver? what gives french canadians entitlement to government service in french over the countless other language minorities we have in canada?

83

[quote]pookie wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
those kinda people, much like your stereotypical rednecks in southern states, are always easy victims for nationalistic/exclusionary policies/propaganda.

Hmmm. I think this is the first time I’ve been compared to a redneck.

Let me get a beer from the double-wide and we’ll go shoot some varmints.

the desire for separatism has probably been about the same for the past 25 years.

Being stuck in Canada is not the worse situation possible. I think the nationalist sentiment is stronger than 50%; but most people are afraid of potential uncomfort during the transition. I wish they had a bit more intestinal fortitude, but I can’t really blame them.
[/quote]

pookie i do not think you’re a redneck.

84

[quote]hueyOT wrote:

pookie i do not think you’re a redneck.

[/quote]

Oh, wow, culture shock. Do you mean to tell me that you actually have rednecks in Canada? I figured most Canadians were socialists like Vroom. :stuck_out_tongue:

85

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh, wow, culture shock. Do you mean to tell me that you actually have rednecks in Canada?[/quote]

Well, they drive pick-ups and wear cowboy hats in Alberta. Hell, they even have oil.

They probably have better teeth. Free healthcare, you know.

Please. Canada is boring enough as it is.

86

[quote]hueyOT wrote:

you’re not going to succeed in trying to make me out to be holding a double-standard. i’m not a hypocrite.
[/quote]
No, not my intention. I do think there may be implications of your position you may not have considered. I’m just pointing out there are different kinds of historical precedence, one of which you are probably in favor of (control of immigration). Yet that is operationally equivalent to another kind you eschew (grandfathered rights for founding populations).

I’m making a tricky argument, but I think it’s tricky in the good sense of being a well-constructed experiment. It’s not a sophistical argument.

87

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
what gives french canadians entitlement to government service in french over the countless other language minorities we have in canada?
[/quote]
Why, the social and historical contract that drove you lot to declare French an official language, that’s what. The other minorities don’t have that.

This more or less goes back to Pookie’s argument. You made the contract and now you’re stuck with it.

88

[quote]pookie wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Oh, wow, culture shock. Do you mean to tell me that you actually have rednecks in Canada?

Well, they drive pick-ups and wear cowboy hats in Alberta. Hell, they even have oil.

[/quote]

I’m actually shocked that anyone east of about Kenora (Ontario) even reads this site! I thought they all liked cooking, soccer, and a little white wine with dinner.

89

My previous post refers to Canada, of course, not the USA.

90

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I thought they all liked cooking, soccer, and a little white wine with dinner.[/quote]

Actually, we’re into kooking, suckers and a lot of white whine.

That’s why we like you so much.

91

Haha I like Canadians !

92

[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I thought they all liked cooking, soccer, and a little white wine with dinner.

Actually, we’re into kooking, suckers and a lot of white whine.

That’s why we like you so much.
[/quote]

Pooks, because you always provide me with a good chuckle, I hereby retract my above posts about Canadians and humbly apologize. Someone with such a foil for a wit can’t be half-bad.

I declare you to be the Voltaire of T-Nation!!

93

[quote]pat36 wrote:
TQB wrote:
Seriously, next time drop a line on the site. Some of us might find a gap to give you the tour. A hint, it does involve beer…

I’ll take you up on that offer. That’s a part of Europe I have not seen and would love too. I like Belgian beers too, though they are not as good a Czech beers :)[/quote]

them’s fighting words…

94

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I declare you to be the Voltaire of T-Nation!![/quote]

Darn. And I’d just received my dozen “Vitriolic Turd” T-shirts.

Maybe if I keep the “V” and “T” I can fix it with a Sharpie and a little Liquid Paper.

95

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
hueyOT wrote:

you’re not going to succeed in trying to make me out to be holding a double-standard. i’m not a hypocrite.

No, not my intention. I do think there may be implications of your position you may not have considered. I’m just pointing out there are different kinds of historical precedence, one of which you are probably in favor of (control of immigration). Yet that is operationally equivalent to another kind you eschew (grandfathered rights for founding populations).

I’m making a tricky argument, but I think it’s tricky in the good sense of being a well-constructed experiment. It’s not a sophistical argument.

[/quote]

there’s a difference between my desire to have a certain maintenance of the status quo and quebec’s desire to discriminate against english.

also, my resistance to 250 million chinese emigrants who don’t speak english arriving in canada maintains social function. how would we deal with all these people no speaking english considering all of our social infrastructure is based on english? it would be a logistical nightmare.

my interests are simple: what is best for canada as a whole. i am not interested in special treatment from the government for minorities.

let me be clear, i understand the concern in quebec to protect language and culture, but i disagree with the methods used to achieve this goal. and i am strongly opposed to having french as the second official language in canada, social contract or not. socieities must be malleable and not rigid.

96

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
there’s a difference between my desire to have a certain maintenance of the status quo and quebec’s desire to discriminate against english.[/quote]

You make it sound as if discrimination against English is Quebec’s purpose.

Any real or perceived discrimination comes from the effort made to preserve the status quo - and in some cases reverse a few treads - with French.

Quebec has no desire to discriminate against anyone. The desire it has is to preserve its language and culture when faced with the reality of the surrounding 330 millions English speakers.

Personally, I like being able to enjoy two cultures. I can watch 24 one night, and “Tout le monde en parle” the next; I can listen to Metallica and read John Grisham one week, then listen to Loco Locass rap while reading Francois Avard.

Should we also abolish all the native Indian reserves in Canada? They generally pay little or no taxes and have access to most services. They’re a very minor minority to boot. They won’t be forcing a minority government by sending 50 representatives to the federal House of Commons.

When your family immigrated here, were they not familiar with the “two official languages” arrangement beforehand? Did it bother them?

Might you not be happier in another country where English is the only official one?

I find it odd that this aspect of Canada seems to bother you so much.

It seems a little presumptuous to me to immigrate to a country and then ask that hundreds of years of tradition and arrangements be ignored or forgotten because you feel they’re unfair or costly or inconvenient.

Might as well move to England and ask them to get rid of their useless Royal Family…

97

[quote]pookie wrote:

You make it sound as if discrimination against English is Quebec’s purpose.

Any real or perceived discrimination comes from the effort made to preserve the status quo - and in some cases reverse a few treads - with French.

Quebec has no desire to discriminate against anyone. The desire it has is to preserve its language and culture when faced with the reality of the surrounding 330 millions English speakers.

Personally, I like being able to enjoy two cultures. I can watch 24 one night, and “Tout le monde en parle” the next; I can listen to Metallica and read John Grisham one week, then listen to Loco Locass rap while reading Francois Avard.[/b]

well, that’s because in this thread i’m focusing on aspects of quebec’s language policy that feel are discriminatory. i think quebec is largely the bomb. montreal’s a great place to party! nice universities, good food, good tourism, good economy, etc…

but keep in mind i’m not here to talk about what i like about quebec, in this thread.

that’s another topic altogether, but if you wanna get into it, i definitely do have a big problem with native reserves. they need to be abolished eventually and integrate. i think it’s clear that i’m generally opposed to government funding for cultural benefits, in most cases. natives should get jobs and pay taxes, if you ask me.

[quote]When your family immigrated here, were they not familiar with the “two official languages” arrangement beforehand? Did it bother them?

Might you not be happier in another country where English is the only official one?

I find it odd that this aspect of Canada seems to bother you so much.
[/quote]

it just makes no sense to me, that’s all. it can’t be justified on pragmatic grounds. it’s simply cultural entitlement that indirectly leads to discrimination against those who don’t speak french .

[quote]It seems a little presumptuous to me to immigrate to a country and then ask that hundreds of years of tradition and arrangements be ignored or forgotten because you feel they’re unfair or costly or inconvenient.

Might as well move to England and ask them to get rid of their useless Royal Family…
[/quote]

it’s not really hundreds of years of traditions and arrangements. french was made an official national language in 1982. the french language has always been and always will be quebec’s
official language.

remember, i have no problem with quebec being a special canadian province in regards to adding french as an official provincial language. but it makes no sense to have french as an official national language. i’m also opposed to regulating what types of signage private businesses can employ in their business dealings.

98

keep in mind that the supreme court has already determined that unilateral provincial separation from canada is unconstitutional. think of all the federal investment that’s already gone into quebec . quebec can’t just walk away and say ‘see ya later’.

99

you know what’s funny about all this? i made a promise to myself that i would learn french before i graduated from school. i can get the costs of the classes covered by my employer, as well. i actually really want to learn french.

100

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
keep in mind that the supreme court has already determined that unilateral provincial separation from canada is unconstitutional. think of all the federal investment that’s already gone into quebec . quebec can’t just walk away and say ‘see ya later’.[/quote]

Well, I’m sure the US war of independence was also deemed illegal by the British Crown. It didn’t stop them.

If I remember correctly, the decision also stated that Canada could not ignore the will of the people from a majority referendum. So even if the final result wasn’t total separation, it would surely bring about various adjustments to the current arrangements.

And it’s not about renouncing all responsibilities and starting fresh from zero. Stuff like the debt and various services (roads, postal service, etc.) would have to be split adequately.

Note that while you use the term “separatist,” I think the better term is “independentist.” I wouldn’t mind keeping Quebec in Canada if the federal government keeps itself from meddling in what should be provincial jurisdictions.

Right now we have a bunch of fights over various policies with then end result usually being that the federal government suspends planned transfers. We have this situation with monies earmarked for tuition and school programs; the same thing with money that was earmarked for the Kyoto accord initiative, etc.

Many provinces are running a deficit or at best a very tight budget (Alberta excepted), while the federal government has been amassing billions in surplus for quite some years now. We pay a lot of taxes and it’d be nice if the money was either put to use, or left in my pocket. I have no desire to line Ottawa’s coffers.

I also wouldn’t mind giving the same latitude to all the other provinces. The federal government should concern itself with those spheres that really require a national attention. Most of the governing should be done at the provincial levels.

Separation is simply the most radical solution to repatriate the various governing powers into which Ottawa has inserted itself over the years.

Note that our current premier, Stephen Harper, was himself quite active for a time in Alberta’s separatist movement.