Presidental Straw Poll

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

If I have to hold my nose and pull the lever for someone why would I do it with the party that is supposed to support my belief in small government? The best message I could send to the GOP is a vote for Obama(or 3rd party if one is around).

But you give me the two choices Romney or Obama it is Obama every time. I will not have this country go into hyperinflation under a republicans watch. The last thing I need is for people to say see republicans are wrong lets all go socialist, imho it would be much better to have the country go into hyperinflation under a liberal and watch the democrat party die.[/quote]

Thank you John, This morning as I read Jeffs response I was trying to think of exactly WHY, I mean I know my gut is telling me that I cannot support the status quo GOP. This is why. If we elect a mediocre conservative the shit is still hitting the fan, and hard. Only it will happen under a GOP watch and the left will be embolden even further. Everyone thought the Dems would gain a long power hold after the bush presidential debacle. But what happened, bad policy and bad governing got people VERY sick to thier stomachs. Now with only 1-2 years in real power the coin has flipped and the conservatives have an amazing chance to do a 180, the country wants a 180. If we give them a 20 or a 10, they are going to be pissed off even further. Since the Tea party is thought of as conservative we will be powerless to hold moderates if the coin flips once again against conservatism.

You will start hearing all sorts of arguments about how we didn’t give Obama enough time, thier plan was working and we cut it off, bla bla bla. We cannot afford to do a 20 or even a 45, a 90 degree turn is the least I can even fathom voting for. I don’t know exactly what that is, but it isn’t a Romney.

So Jeffrey, you say it is people like me who will usher in Obama, but I say it is people like you. Because you KNOW what you have to do, unless you doubt the depth of our conviction, which would be a grave miscalculation. Put up someone I can pull the lever for, you know the type we ask for, you know the personality and policy characteristics I need in order to pull the lever. You have the information, do not waste it. You can get behind a person like that, there is no reason you can’t unless somewhere deep down, you really want big government, you just want it in republican controlled hands. Is that what you want Jeff?

We have given you our position, we have told you what we are going to do, unfortunately we are not big enough YET to do it for ourselves, your people still pull the strings at the Top of the GOP. But if the people at the top of the GOP fail to listen to what 20-30% of their conservative base is telling them, it is not the fault of that 20-30% it is the fault of the people at the top. And for their failures, they will fall fast and far. We are not going anywhere, and if we cannot reverse course, we will be the ones who rebuild this nation out of the rubble. Believe that.

V[/quote]

2 excellent posts.

142

Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics.

143

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I personally doubt they would vote for Obama over a Republican. I saw them say that, but it is hard for me to believe they would follow through with it. Lets pray that the Republicans will put someone up that Mr. Paul will back. He will definitely help if it is someone he backs.[/quote]

If I have to hold my nose and pull the lever for someone why would I do it with the party that is supposed to support my belief in small government? The best message I could send to the GOP is a vote for Obama(or 3rd party if one is around).

But you give me the two choices Romney or Obama it is Obama every time. I will not have this country go into hyperinflation under a republicans watch. The last thing I need is for people to say see republicans are wrong lets all go socialist, imho it would be much better to have the country go into hyperinflation under a liberal and watch the democrat party die.[/quote]

I can see your logic on this. I to hope that the Republicans can bring forth a candidate with some balls to take the Country in the right direction. I would rather not vote than give my vote to Obama. The man cares nothing for the people only himself.[/quote]

Republicans are not conservatives. They’ve spend 70+ years try to ‘me-too’ their way into power. They get in and do just exactly the same as the Dem. That’s why we’re so screwed.

April 14 (Bloomberg) РWhen Sarah Palin rolls into downtown Boston for a rally today, she̢??ll be greeted by Tea Party activists and a brass band playing Sousa marches. Absent will be U.S. Senator Scott Brown and at least one other top state Republican.

They say theyâ??re too busy to attend the 10 a.m. rally on Boston Common. Local organizer Christen Varley, who heads the Greater Boston Tea Party, says the absentees are being pragmatic.

â??How can Scott Brown stand up on the stage with Sarah Palin and not get skewered for it by the ridiculous mainstream media?â?? asked Varley, 39.

For a grassroots movement dedicated to eliminating what it describes as big-spending liberals in Washington, holding the rally in the heavily Democratic Boston – site of the first Tea Party in 1773 – represents an opportunity to tweak the opposition, said Tea Party Express Chairman Mark Williams.

â??Boston is the cradle of democracy,â?? said Williams, 54, talking earlier this week on his cell phone from a Tea Party bus headed to Buffalo. â??Itâ??s also the cradle of the Looney Tunes left-wing.â??

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_qKEhxpDFOY&pos=9

Memo to gutless wimp Republicans – no ballz, no glory.

[/quote]

Just came back from this - the crowd took up 1/4 of the Common. Tons of enegy; pretty electrifying in many ways. I can still here everything stirring - the helicopters and so on - from the South End here.

144

Here’s a photo - sorry, it’s pretty bad…the iphone camera sucks.

145

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I’m now, belatedly and ashamedly, antiwar…[/quote]

Can I ask you what the tipping point was for you?

146

Let me try that again…

147

arrgggg…once more…

148

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Actually, I’ve been advised for some time that it is a poor business practice for me to post here.[/quote]

At least using your real name…

Props!

149

383×511 141 KB

And just 'cause it’s pweddy…here’s the public garden island…

150

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
I’m now, belatedly and ashamedly, antiwar…[/quote]

Can I ask you what the tipping point was for you?[/quote]
Personal stories from a friend. I was horrified and worried for him.
More generally, we know a lot more now than we did in 2003 about how we got into Iraq in particular.

151

^so it didn’t just stem from the idea that war is destruction…?

152

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? [/quote]

Yes, because it makes economic sense which touches on all three.

153

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics. [/quote]

We are of the same mind on this one but perhaps we are minority even on T-Nation.

What Orion said is interesting also; that business and nations do what makes economic sense.
If I understood him correctly.

154

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics. [/quote]

We are of the same mind on this one but perhaps we are minority even on T-Nation.

What Orion said is interesting also; that business and nations do what makes economic sense.
If I understood him correctly.
[/quote]

Of course they do that but he claimed that that was immoral, unethical and made no political sense.

I say that that is wrong.

First of all, Americans want cheap goods, Chinese want a better job than standing knee deep in a rice paddy. What is immoral or unethical about that? Would it not be immoral to deny them that?

Second, trading with people who want to kill you. Hell yeah, some of them want to kill you, but nobody kills the goose that lays golden eggs. They want your money even more than killing you and you profit from cheap energy. To remove the one thing that keeps that balance going would be economic suicide, therefore politically stupid and highly unethical to boot because many, many people would die as a result.

I do not like that whole, oh, it only makes economic sense, but it is “unethical” approach.

Feeding billions of people is an ethical issue and without one eye on the bottom line it will not be done.

Since either goods or armies cross borders, free trade is an ethical issue too.

155

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics. [/quote]

We are of the same mind on this one but perhaps we are minority even on T-Nation.

What Orion said is interesting also; that business and nations do what makes economic sense.
If I understood him correctly.
[/quote]
There is an important distinction though:

Whereas a business is an enterprise that relies on prices it can make economic calculations with regard to its own profitability; this does not even make sense to the nation state since nations do not work within the framework of prices and therefore cannot calculate costs ,etc. (at least modern social-democracies cannot calculate where the notion of ownership does not exist).

It is only the individuals embedded within the power structure of a nation state that do whatever makes economic sense to enrich themselves (via looting the masses). It is impossible to enrich the people of a nation by stealing from its most productive members of society since wealth can only be created through them in the first place.

156

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics. [/quote]

We are of the same mind on this one but perhaps we are minority even on T-Nation.

What Orion said is interesting also; that business and nations do what makes economic sense.
If I understood him correctly.
[/quote]

Of course they do that but he claimed that that was immoral, unethical and made no political sense.

I say that that is wrong.

First of all, Americans want cheap goods, Chinese want a better job than standing knee deep in a rice paddy. What is immoral or unethical about that? Would it not be immoral to deny them that?

Second, trading with people who want to kill you. Hell yeah, some of them want to kill you, but nobody kills the goose that lays golden eggs. They want your money even more than killing you and you profit from cheap energy. To remove the one thing that keeps that balance going would be economic suicide, therefore politically stupid and highly unethical to boot because many, many people would die as a result.

I do not like that whole, oh, it only makes economic sense, but it is “unethical” approach.

Feeding billions of people is an ethical issue and without one eye on the bottom line it will not be done.

Since either goods or armies cross borders, free trade is an ethical issue too.

[/quote]

What is wrong with helping Chinese who want a life better than standing in a rice patty? Nothing, but this is not China. I would like to think that we help ourselves before we can help others. Call me selfish, racist, whatever you like, but my view is that this country helped me, so I would like to help it right back.

I do agree with you about the golden goose, you do not mess with those who butter your bread.

157

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Alpha F,

Yes I agree with you that politics affects business decisions, but I feel that business affects business decisions more. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill, but we do what I mentioned above all the time.

We buy oil from people who conspire to kill us, we buy Chinese imports filled with things that have been known to poison us. We buy things from many countries, all for the same reason… they are cheaper. Does it make moral, ethical, or political sense? No. Why would we not buy from our own manufactures here, where the money goes back into our own economy, and supports American jobs? Because at the end of the day, our own wallet is the bottom line. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but it is the ugly truth of the matter.

The success of this website originated from the lack of political correctness, going against the grain, and not following trends. A blend of the tried and true old school, with the new and innovative new school, making for nothing but pure success. I appreciate what Biotest is doing, both in their supplements and this website. For that, I show my appreciation by buying Biotest stuff. To me, that beats any kind of politics. [/quote]

We are of the same mind on this one but perhaps we are minority even on T-Nation.

What Orion said is interesting also; that business and nations do what makes economic sense.
If I understood him correctly.
[/quote]

Of course they do that but he claimed that that was immoral, unethical and made no political sense.

I say that that is wrong.

First of all, Americans want cheap goods, Chinese want a better job than standing knee deep in a rice paddy. What is immoral or unethical about that? Would it not be immoral to deny them that?

Second, trading with people who want to kill you. Hell yeah, some of them want to kill you, but nobody kills the goose that lays golden eggs. They want your money even more than killing you and you profit from cheap energy. To remove the one thing that keeps that balance going would be economic suicide, therefore politically stupid and highly unethical to boot because many, many people would die as a result.

I do not like that whole, oh, it only makes economic sense, but it is “unethical” approach.

Feeding billions of people is an ethical issue and without one eye on the bottom line it will not be done.

Since either goods or armies cross borders, free trade is an ethical issue too.

[/quote]

What is wrong with helping Chinese who want a life better than standing in a rice patty? Nothing, but this is not China. I would like to think that we help ourselves before we can help others. Call me selfish, racist, whatever you like, but my view is that this country helped me, so I would like to help it right back.

I do agree with you about the golden goose, you do not mess with those who butter your bread. [/quote]

I can say my country helped me, it has allowed my family to raise cattle and grow crops. However, the state has not, it has taxed, pushed, and taken away our property.

I would like to remind everyone that when buying products from China, there is not an organic entity named China, you are dealing with individuals, same thing with India and any other country. So, so if you want to only by American, that is fine, however if I do not have any allegiance to an American Co. Why would I not make a business deal with someone, just because they are in China. That is the same as someone in Florida not doing business with someone just because they are in Arizona. Does not make sense.

158

Brother Chris,

Of course you can make a deal with China if you like, that is your choice to make. Just remember, we all pay the piper at some point. Remember what made this country wealthy, domestic industry and manufacture. Things being built and made here by Americans. Our parent’s generation, who did factory work, owned small businesses, gave alot of people here jobs. When people around me earn money, we all benefit. Better places to live, better products made, better investments in our markets, our schools, it’s just an all around win. If you want to ship all that win to China, that’s up to you.

159

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Brother Chris,

Of course you can make a deal with China if you like, that is your choice to make. Just remember, we all pay the piper at some point. Remember what made this country wealthy, domestic industry and manufacture. Things being built and made here by Americans. Our parent’s generation, who did factory work, owned small businesses, gave alot of people here jobs. When people around me earn money, we all benefit. Better places to live, better products made, better investments in our markets, our schools, it’s just an all around win. If you want to ship all that win to China, that’s up to you. [/quote]

You are missing the larger point. There is no collective we. There is you and your interests and there is me and my interests, etc.

Trade always makes people better off precisely because individuals can focus on what they are good at (i.e., their own interests) and leave to others to figure out what they are not good at. It may not make any economic sense whatsoever to restore manufacturing jobs to America if it cannot compete with cheaper labor abroad. How would it be in the interests of any person to do something they will automatically lose at?