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Education is already heavily invested in by government and is not new. Many people do benefit from public education from kindergarden to grade 12. Education subsidies should be targeted in a way to promote investment in math, science, trades and engineering. Concurrently, education needs to promote risk taking and critical thinking. A smart engineer is less effective if he is risk adverse and refuses to start a business despite his original ideas.
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Cities such as New York, and Seattle have weathered the financial downturn much better than Detroit because multiple industries offer other economic opportunities than single market economies.
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The laffer curve increases the deficit and the debt (good in theory not in practical or historical application). Less government revenue while high government expenditures increases debt and deficit. To cut tax rates you must cut expenditures so that the debt decreases.
Nickj,
- I do the finances for a LARGE urban school district. I can tell you one thing. Costs are rising exponentially for public education with marginal, if ANY sort of returns. I think a better question is, is our money being spent wisely? The answer to that is no. I would agree with your other points, but that would be counter intuitive to the way the fed govt manages education.
Why would someone teach critical thinking, when the pressure is to meet standards set by NCLB? Furthermore, in many places the bureaucracy prevents teachers from even TEACHING. They have a curriculum that is like forcing a business person to read from a power point they did not create.
Nobody is disputing that there are positive economic gains to education. The system however needs revamped to save costs and deliver better outcomes.
The other measure is govt student loans. I laughed when Obama talked about making these more affordable. My grad school tuition at a top 20 university MBA program has loans pegged at a higher rate than an undergrad art student. I firmly believe my ROI will still be at around 3.4 years, but given the nature of underwriting loans, you account for risk. Why is my degree assessed a higher rate than my example?
That would be one way to merge our philosophies. The current trend is easy money with no underwriting, causing higher tuition prices from over consumption. That leads to our current malaise of unemployed college grads with “degrees”.
The government could play a positive role in this, but doesn’t achieve anything close to the optimal outcome.
Furthermore, Obama talked about “getting rid of the middleman” for student loans. What a joke, the government IS the middle man. Thankfully I don’t have undergrad debt, combined with my projected future earnings, I can tolerate my current debt burden. There are a lot of people I would not recommend going to
- 4 year universities that are over populated and under perform
- Majors at said universities that don’t make up for the cost of pursuing them
- grad programs just to “qualify” for something. There are a lot of relevant skills that can be learned on the job or on your own.
My brother graduated college and is now going back to a 2 year tech school at OkSU. People leave with little debt and good jobs from there. Once again, the current student loan trend, from our benevolent government (and high school guidance counselors) thinks every Podunk moron should go to DrinkBeerU and come out making 60k with a sports management degree.
And there is no reason to beat a dead horse about it, but…take that, dead horse:
[i]Q Can you – have you called it a terrorist attack before? Have you said that?
MR. CARNEY: I haven’t, but – I mean, people attacked our embassy. It’s an act of terror by definition.
Q Yes, I just hadn’t heard you –
MR. CARNEY: It doesn’t have to do with what date it occurred.
[b]Q No, I just hadn’t heard the White House say that this was an act of terrorism or a terrorist attack. And I just –
MR. CARNEY: I don’t think the fact that we hadn’t is not – as our NCTC Director testified yesterday, a number of different elements appear to have been involved in the attack, including individuals connected to militant groups that are prevalent in eastern Libya, particularly in the Benghazi area.[/b] We are looking at indications that individuals involved in the attack may have had connections to al Qaeda or al Qaedaâ??s affiliates, in particular al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.[/i]
The press hadn’t heard Obama call it a terror act (hence the question), and Carney admits and confirms that the administration had not labeled it as such.
That’s fine - that’s politics. That’s part of the communications mess we’ve seen in connection with this event - let 'em duke it out. But Romney zeroing in on the President’s statement - never before heard - was perfectly legitimate, and maybe Romney would have muddled it and handled it poorly, or maybe he would have nailed it…point is, we’ll never know, because the moderator decided to jump on the grenade for the President.
666 Rich,
I 100% agree with you. The primacy put on education is sometimes laughable. I am actually about to study for my GMAT because the MBA program I want pairs you with an engineer and you try to start a business. Could the federal government leave education and education be run by states? Of course. Should your interest rate be as high as it is comparable to other degrees? No, thats absurd.
Standardization and bureacracy often create immobility and disallow good teachers the opportunities they deserve in order to be more equitable with terrible teachers. I never liked the idea of tenure for a high school or elementary school teacher or a professor for that matter. Job security can inevitably create complacency.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned two thought-provoking questions that were asked the candidates:
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The one from the young woman concerned about equal pay for equal work AND
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What I think was the last question…“How would you be different from President Bush”? (And yes…the woman asking the question “did go there” in suggesting that a large part of our problems were “passed on” by President Bush).
My thoughts:
Even though I agree with Romney that “Women’s Issues” are indeed economic ones…I could tell by the looks of some of the women watching Romney respond that he was getting into some quicksand when he starting talking about “coming home to cook dinner for the family…” and such. Issues such as Reproductive Choice and women in the workplace will most likely be, (at the very least), “uncomfortable” areas for any GOP candidate , especially if they are at odds with the belief’s of the Conservative base.
I thought that it was VERY interesting…and I wish that Romney would have said it again…that the 8 years of President Bush were “Different Places/Different Times”…
I say this because you simply can’t compare these current times with those during Bush’s years…and CERTAINLY not Reagans! (Zeb!)…and this is from the GOP candidate. And the remedies will not…CAN not…be the same.
With the worst economic times since the Great Depression…coupled with our largest trading partner (Europe) in total chaos…the next President will find that the remedies will be much more difficult than they could have imagined.
Mufasa
[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
666 Rich,
I 100% agree with you. The primacy put on education is sometimes laughable. I am actually about to study for my GMAT because the MBA program I want pairs you with an engineer and you try to start a business. Could the federal government leave education and education be run by states? Of course. Should your interest rate be as high as it is comparable to other degrees? No, thats absurd.
Standardization and bureacracy often create immobility and disallow good teachers the opportunities they deserve in order to be more equitable with terrible teachers. I never liked the idea of tenure for a high school or elementary school teacher or a professor for that matter. Job security can inevitably create complacency. [/quote]
So let me get this straight…you are in college and are arguing economics and finances with Beans, who has his MBA/MAcc and is a CPA.
For really?
666 Rich,
But what I always will believe there is intrinsic value in a more informed and moe well educated society. A more educated mind is less dogmatic and more critical (generally speaking). For civil society to flourish education and a well informed electorate is needed. Leaders such as Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln, Eisenhower, Clinton, and George Bush 1 were able to make decisions and be critical, thoughtful and pragmatic. In a pluralistic society you need an ability to see both sides of the fence and multiple avenues for action. I am a big proponent of education reform and I do believe public education is still the proper avenue. There are those who can opt for private education and they should if they can afford it. Choice spurs innovation and competition. But for those kids who have absentee parents or families that have little value for education or who have parents who cannot afford private education then public education is a vital lifeline to a better life. Not all kids or people utilize the opportunities that are granted to them but that is their choice. The greater good matters and subsidizing education and providing those opportunities can make a world of difference to some and it only takes one innovative kid to change the world. Remember Steve Jobs went a public school and no one diminishes his amazing business acumen. Now you can argue that he is a statistical outlier but if we really examined the correlation between education and economic success I am pretty sure from my undergrad econ classes that this positive relationship still holds true. I know we can probably all identify friends and family who squandered their elementary, secondary and post secondary education but there are also those who did not. Freedom and the ability to do what you please with your opportunities is liberty in action no matter the consequences.
The first of the questions, while irrelevant, he managed to screw up on. It was an easy pitch to both candidates. It was mostly an anecdotal fail. Obama has made good use of his loose anecdotes to relate to the audience. Romneys didnt go so well. He should have shortened his comment to just remark about his cabinet including woman in challenging and diverse roles in a bi partisan legislature.
The Bush question, was an obvious gift for the Obama campaign. That lady forgot, that Bush was over 4 years ago and the last 4 havent been peachy. It should have read “The last four years have sucked, and now that I think about it, the last 12 have sucked, how do you plan on changing it?”
I think his different times approach was correct, but he could have been more eloquent about it.
I correctly deduced that Obama would hearken memories of the Clinton administration as if that applied to him in any way. Its not like the obligatory Reagen comment didnt come up however.
Romney has the right idea with focusing on Jobs and the economy, while keeping it simple. He just needs to work on delivery.
There were many questions of significance not asked. Housing, Afghanistan, civil liberties, the constitution.
Public Education is not a homogenous entity.
Public Education in the burbs is vastly different from the inner city. This is as much a cultural issue as a quantitative issue. In many instances its not for lack of resources, and in some instances it is. I dont want to de-rail this into a discussion about education policy and experience, so if you would like to discuss the economics and uncertainty in public education, PM me.
Utah lama,
You put way too much value on a label (though I value the MBA). Why can’t 2 people have a normal discourse? Why can’t I challenge his beliefs and why can’t he challenge mine? You put him on a pedestal.
666 Rich,
We can stop now and I am not disagreeing with you about the homogeneity of education. This discussion got far away from Presidential politics. I thought the debate was a tie though.
Rich:
I agree…Romney was pretty strong when he talked about appointing women to his cabinet…BUT…
You just “felt” he was beginning to sink when he started to talk about having folders, and trying to find qualified ones of “those folks…” and as you’ve stated, when he tried to get anecdotal and got into all the “cooking dinner…” stuff. Those women that were looking at him SEEMED to have an obvious “WTF…did he go there?” look on their faces.
Mufasa
[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
Utah lama,
You put way too much value on a label (though I value the MBA). Why can’t 2 people have a normal discourse? Why can’t I challenge his beliefs and why can’t he challenge mine? You put him on a pedestal. [/quote]
Having an MBA proves you know some shit.
[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
Utah lama,
You put way too much value on a label (though I value the MBA). Why can’t 2 people have a normal discourse? Why can’t I challenge his beliefs and why can’t he challenge mine? You put him on a pedestal. [/quote]
I don’t put him on any kind of pedestal, but I have conversed with him on this site for several years. He is one of few level headed, even keeled posters.
Your questions to him initiall were smarmy and dismissive…
And you really have not proven anything you laid out as facts.
Sorry bud, but you jumped in the deep end of the pool with no floaties.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
With the worst economic times since the Great Depression…coupled with our largest trading partner (Europe) in total chaos…the next President will find that the remedies will be much more difficult than they could have imagined.
Mufasa[/quote]
You bring up some good points. A lot of women emailing the radio show this morning said Mitt was dead on in the statement that flex time is important to women, and should be encouraged.
But, I’m in no position to argue how women feel about topic x,y or z lol.
I will say that if my daughter grows up and doesn’t see herself as more than uterus centered voter stock, I will have failed as a father.
As to your point above. While I couldn’t agree more that we need to stop with the Keynesian spending, ignoring history and/or not concidering what has worked in the past is dangerous as well.
Good post
I really wish Romney would have called out Obama on Solyndra and touched more on why Obama did not sign the Keystone Pipeline if he is such a “North America energy guy.”
Utah lama
I gave several references and articulated my points. He just said he did the mental math. Granted he is smart but for your to completely disregard any legitimacy to my arguemnts or points is bizarre. You hold him in high esteem because you have conversed with him and you have a rapport. I did come across arrogant in one post and that was a mistake because I was frusterated. But focusing on a portion of a post that was smarmy does not devalue an argument or a point. Tone is hard to ascertain in text format.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
There were many questions of significance not asked. Housing, Afghanistan, civil liberties, the constitution.
[/quote]
HAHA, like I said, liberals aren’t concerned with things like this unless a republican is in office.
Every single 20 something that voted for O because he was going to “end the wars” and “bring back civil liberties” has been mum since he resigned the patroit act, and pretty much dropped that as an issue. Laughable.
At least romney comes out and says he will continue to strip our civil liberties. Makes him a DBag, but at least I can respect he admits it.
[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
Utah lama
I gave several references and articulated my points. He just said he did the mental math. Granted he is smart but for your to completely disregard any legitimacy to my arguemnts or points is bizarre. You hold him in high esteem because you have conversed with him and you have a rapport. I did come across arrogant in one post and that was a mistake because I was frusterated. But focusing on a portion of a post that was smarmy does not devalue an argument or a point. Tone is hard to ascertain in text format. [/quote]
Fair enough…but I will say this, I thought I knew a LOT more than I actually did in college. It was not until I had worked in the real world for 10+ years, started a business and owned a home that shit got real.
Try and remember that when you think that your argument is infallible.
Maximus B, of course an MBA proves he is educated but does it make him a panacea. He is a person like everyone else. Can he be wrong? of course. He can be wrong just as likely he can be right too. The smartest people make mistakes just look at the Great Recession and the belief that housing values could never go down in a mass drop.