Prepare.......

[quote]Ren wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ok, the whole stem cell thing keeps coming up. What exactly is special about embryonic stem cells compared to umbilical blood stem cells? This isn’t something I’ve really kept up with. However, haven’t they recently discovered how to change umbilical blood stem cells into target cells? Such as the British scientists who grew a specific organ, a liver.

Am I missing something? It’s an honest question.[/quote]

To answer you Sloth, no, you’re not missing anything.

Which is more than they’ve done with any line of ESCs and they managed to do it without using any left over embryos and pissing off any hard-line pro-lifers.

[quote]Basic differences:

Embryonic - Harvested from fertilized eggs, have the potential to become any of the cells we find in the human body.

Umbilical - collected from the umbilical cord of a recently born baby. Some stem cells harvested this way can be grown into any kind of cells, some can’t.

Adult - Harvested from adults. Replicate slower than the other 2, and have shown some hope of being able to change into other kinds of cells.[/quote]

This is incorrect, adult stem cells grow just as rapidly as any other cell. The major difference is that the ASCs are more application specific and might (the same might that ESCs carry for any use) require more time in cross-tissue applications.

[quote]Here is the thing, at least in my opinion. Embryonic stem cells have the potential to become any kind of cell, basically the building blocks of the human body, since this is what we all started out as. If we can decipher exactly how these cells replicate and grow into stable versions of other cells, we can better understand both umbilical and adult stem cells.

Think about it, if you know how an embryonic stem cell grows into an adult stem cell, it is feasable that we can use that knowledge to decipher how we can change adult stem cells into other cells, something which has had some, but limited success.[/quote]

Would you say the best way to understand ASCs is to study ESCs or ASCs? I’m not saying that a complete understanding of ASCs can be reached without ESCs, but what the cells can/can’t do once they’re there is much more important than how they got there.

I hope jsbrooks is paying attention. ASCs have been and are currently used in clinical medicine to treat disease. Every bone marrow transplant performed is/was at it’s core an ASC treatment/cure. Patients have had their diabetes cured from ASCs, cardiac and arterial diseases have been treated and cured all are/were done with ASCs.

How about because every time you turn a new cell line into a treatment it would cost as much as the research to do the same thing with ASCs? How about because the only place that the equivalent pluripotency is seen in an adult body is cancer? How about because a cottage industry of ‘ASC harvesting’ already exists and would be wildly less taboo than its ESC equivalent? How about because with more of the right research any patient could be his/her own stem cell donor and negate a ‘tissue harvesting industry’? Should I go on?

Amgen (the largest independent biotech company in the world worth, $12.3B in revenue) has partnered and put Visacell’s blood cancer treatment in Phase I trials. Aastrom and Stemcells Inc. both have products in Phase I trials. The nearest ESC-based companies are still looking to garner funds to do the research work to get them into trials. Lack of federal money is supposedly holding them back.

  1. VC funding isn’t the issue, VCs can spend their money as whimsically as they want to. The good ones actually make a pretty profit. I don’t think our gov’t would, could, or should.

  2. No, Edison would’ve failed to secure funding if incandescent bulbs required fertilized human eggs to run and he had to compete with Germer’s fluorescent bulb.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

I have been drifting towards more libertarian principals for a little while now, but this last year has really made me question whether the GOP truly reflects my values or not.

I long for a party which espouses true conservatism.[/quote]

I’m pretty much on the same fence, two things prevent me from voting libertarian:

  1. The party doesn’t exist as far as I’m concerned. No one on any part of the ticket is/was libertarian.

  2. Sheer undiluted cynicism. The party sounds like the best lip service both sides have to offer and since it doesn’t exist, it’s baseless lip service. The kind you would use to be to fool all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

BTW: It was women who put the Dems in; men tended to vote Republican. Ah, the fair sex, putting the Dems in, just like women put Hitler in.

Soccer moms SHOULD NOT vote!
Let’s cancel that amendment.

Headhunter

[/quote]
Headhunter, you are a big fat steaming pile of elephant dung. Take this loss like a man, not like the girl you sound to be. The Republicans blew it. The people have spoken and you and all your fox watching, burger chomping, limbaugh listening morons, are going to have to get used to it. But look on the bright side; You still have Bush as the president. He will probably sign meaningful legislation now that his power has been checked. It’s good to see more blue states. That means people are becomming more educated. Something you are probably against. Now go back to work, another car just drove up to the drive thru window.

most statistics show that the Dems garnered more votes across the board for all income ranges below $100,000.

But it must be because women voted for them right?

Quit making up weak excuses. America wants CHANGE and wants RESULTS. If the people in charge aren’t delivering what they claim, you boot them out and tell the next guy to live up to your expectations or get the same treatment.

The Dems have 2 years to start making good, or else they are in serious trouble come '08.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

I long for a party which espouses true conservatism.

[/quote]

I do not think there will ever be one again. Conservatism as we knew it is dead.

This is how HH views the elections results:

Except where Colbert is being tongue in cheek, HH would be deadly serious.

[quote]lucasa wrote:

I hope jsbrooks is paying attention. ASCs have been and are currently used in clinical medicine to treat disease. Every bone marrow transplant performed is/was at it’s core an ASC treatment/cure. Patients have had their diabetes cured from ASCs, cardiac and arterial diseases have been treated and cured all are/were done with ASCs.
[/quote]

Well, that is all well and good. It should be continued. But that does not mean that embryonic reasearch has no purchase and should not be funded. Every potential avenue should be explored in treatment of disease relating to this area because there is no downside. It would be different if there was any other use for embryos. But the embryos in question are not viable and cannot be used for anything. They will die anyhow. It’s only a matter of time. There is nothing to prevent that. How how is using embryos that are fated to dissapate for something useful ‘murder?’ If anything could be called murder it is invitro beause of the prospect, in fact the near certainty, that there are going to be embryos created that are fated to die.

[quote]mica617 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
All either party worries about is thier self-serving power. Thier ends are the same but the means may be slightly different.

Whatever you decide to do I surely hope you give up on those two cancerous parties and vote for someone who you truly believe will represent your convictions.

BINGO!! DING! DING! frickin’ DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

My thoughts exactly. NO- and I mean NO politician has ever done ANYTHING in MY best interest, and I can’t remember the last time I voted for someone that I TRULY believed in (rather lesser of 2 evils).

The problem is that most people feel that a vote for anything other than Dem or GOP is “throwing away their vote”. So there is a very slim chance of anyone outside the Demorat and Republican’t parties getting elected. If anyone that would side with most of the people ever decided to run within the parties, they would never make it through the primary because they won’t toe the “party line”. So we get stuck with a polarized and divided country. It only seems to be getting worse, too.[/quote]

But if you vote for the lesser of two evils you still get evil. So in my opinion to vote THAT WAY is throwing your vote away.

Most people feel the way you do and that is why we need a complete overhaul on our election process. This country needs something like the Condorcet method they use in Austrailia and other countries.

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
mica617 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
All either party worries about is thier self-serving power. Thier ends are the same but the means may be slightly different.

Whatever you decide to do I surely hope you give up on those two cancerous parties and vote for someone who you truly believe will represent your convictions.

BINGO!! DING! DING! frickin’ DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

My thoughts exactly. NO- and I mean NO politician has ever done ANYTHING in MY best interest, and I can’t remember the last time I voted for someone that I TRULY believed in (rather lesser of 2 evils).

The problem is that most people feel that a vote for anything other than Dem or GOP is “throwing away their vote”. So there is a very slim chance of anyone outside the Demorat and Republican’t parties getting elected. If anyone that would side with most of the people ever decided to run within the parties, they would never make it through the primary because they won’t toe the “party line”. So we get stuck with a polarized and divided country. It only seems to be getting worse, too.

You also have to add the fact that there is no money available for a third party to be a viable choice. All of the money for campaigns has been tied into either R or D camps. No one puts money in third party because there is no return on investment. Maybe Lieberman (sp?) being elected might change that mindset, but I doubt it.
[/quote]

That’s true. I AM somewhat intrigued by what Lieberman pulled off. It will be interesting to see if any other major players choose to buck the parties now. That’s really the only way that an independant will win in the current political climate. I would have been more excited had a candidate come forth that hadn’t “risen” politically through one of the parties before going independant. If someone could prove that you can become an impact player without party ties helping you rise to the top, I think it might bring both parties down to Earth a bit.
I just wish that our country would work together to improve things once the elections are final, rather than stonewalling, posturing, and positioning for the next election the very day that the results are in. It really has divided our country the way everything is politicised now with a party line spin.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
…to embrace the horror that is speaker Pelosi. This is not a good turn of events for the U.S. IMHO. But one thing is for sure, the GOP did this to themselves. Wreckless spending, scandel, lousy immigration policies, and an open embrace of the bible thumping religious right.

I find myself getting farther and farther away from the GOP. I’m also starting to think that America’s answer isn’t going to be found in either major political party. All that being said, a democrat majority scares the living piss out of me.

You forget the increasingly unpopular war! Which I believe is the biggest of reasons.

I was once a tried-n-true conservative republican. I listened to Rush, belonged to the Conservative Book Club, donated to the RNC and Heritage Foundation. I had subscriptions to The American Spectator and National Review. Skipped Sunday football to watch The Firing Line. I, like you, became disillusioned with the Republicans(about 6 years ago) and moved towards more libertarian principles. I voted that way whenever possible.

Since I’ve gravitated towards a social/libertarian political philosophy and voted Green party.

You needn’t worry about the dems screwin up any more than the reps do. All either party worries about is thier self-serving power. Thier ends are the same but the means may be slightly different.

Whatever you decide to do I surely hope you give up on those two cancerous parties and vote for someone who you truly believe will represent your convictions.

I have been drifting towards more libertarian principals for a little while now, but this last year has really made me question whether the GOP truly reflects my values or not.

I long for a party which espouses true conservatism.

[/quote]

Thier redderick may reflect it but their actions do not. And that is really what counts isn’t it?

The Republicans like the Democrats do not have the public’s interest at heart. They serve thier own needs and those of corporate power. One could argue it’s been that way since the begining. It’s just that it continues to consolidate as time goes on and that makes it worse.

[quote]Ren wrote:
This is how HH views the elections results:

Except where Colbert is being tongue in cheek, HH would be deadly serious.[/quote]

So that is where JeffR, rainjack and hack wilson get their arguements from…lol

[quote]lucasa wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

I have been drifting towards more libertarian principals for a little while now, but this last year has really made me question whether the GOP truly reflects my values or not.

I long for a party which espouses true conservatism.

I’m pretty much on the same fence, two things prevent me from voting libertarian:

  1. The party doesn’t exist as far as I’m concerned. No one on any part of the ticket is/was libertarian.

  2. Sheer undiluted cynicism. The party sounds like the best lip service both sides have to offer and since it doesn’t exist, it’s baseless lip service. The kind you would use to be to fool all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time.[/quote]

Obviously there is a libertarian party but the way the voting method and laws are set up it makes it nearly impossible to have a viable third party candidate. We need to scrap this election method and adopt other means to enable the will of the people to become a reality.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

Thier redderick may reflect it but their actions do not…[/quote]

Their what?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:

Thier redderick may reflect it but their actions do not…

Their what?

[/quote]

I think he means “Their rhetoric”. As you know, there is no spell check on this board. :wink:

[quote]vroom wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And now in California your 13-year-old daughter can go get an abortion without you even knowing about it. Aren’t the Dem’s great!

When I see the right wing get all their nuts in a twist over the rape, maiming and murder happening in Darfur and the like, then I’ll believe they actually care about the sanctity of life.

Until then, don’t pretend you have any moral legs to stand on.[/quote]

Vacuum,

You moan about us stopping those very things in Iraq, now moan about us not stopping same in Darfur. But, oh…, its about the oil…yeah…

You don’t give a shit about what’s happening in Darfur. I think you don’t even know where it is. You just want to attack moral people, because somehow it makes you feel moral. Here’s a clue: a negative isn’t a positive.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I think you don’t even know where it is.[/quote]

Darfur is just between Darthree and Darfive.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Vacuum,

You moan about us stopping those very things in Iraq, now moan about us not stopping same in Darfur. But, oh…, its about the oil…yeah…

You don’t give a shit about what’s happening in Darfur. I think you don’t even know where it is. You just want to attack moral people, because somehow it makes you feel moral. Here’s a clue: a negative isn’t a positive.
[/quote]

Asshunter,

Are you going to address the issue that I brought up or are you going to try to suggest that I’m someone who is pushing the sanctity of life argument in order to have my beliefs imposed on others?

The reasons for going into Iraq are very arguable, and were based on whipping up fear in the populace about WMD’s and ties to terrorism. Without those, it never would have happened.

Strangely, and it is something you always seem to miss, I am not against warfare, but it has to be entered into or approved by a willing and informed populace (their elected representatives). That’s the way it is supposed to work. Yes, I know it is arguable whether or not they were appropriately informed.

So, you are barking up the wrong tree with respect to Iraq. 1) That’s not why you went there… and I’ve never said it’s about the oil - not sure what fantasy world you got that from. 2) So called “moral people” do have to confront the hypocrisy of their position from time to time, it should really help them understand where there views are coming from.

As for yourself, you really seem to suffer a lot of misconceptions, make up a lot of shit, have comprehension issues and simply appear to be a nutbird with his head up his ass.

If you aren’t going to do anything but throw out useless attacks instead of actually thinking about the issues involved, maybe you could just spare us the hysteria? You sound like a panicked old lady.


bigflamer, Don’t worry about Pelosi, shes still getting her direction from the exact same people who are so near and dear to your heart…

Pelosi’s support for Israel is heartfelt, supporters say
JTA
November 8, 2006
Political observers say it’s no surprise that the congresswoman from San Francisco considers herself close to the Jews.

The daughter of Thomas D’Alesandro Jr., a former mayor of Baltimore, Pelosi grew up in a Democratic family with Jewish neighbors and friends.

“She likes to say that, growing up in Baltimore, she went to a bar or bat mitzvah every Saturday,” Amy Friedkin, a former president of AIPAC and a friend of Pelosi’s for 25 years, wrote in an e-mail message to JTA.

Friedkin noted that there’s even a soccer field in the Haifa area of Israel named after the lawmaker’s family.

While the Republicans had campaigned partly on the premise that support for Israel among Democrats has waned, exit polls from Tuesday’s voting show that Democrats won an overwhelming majority of the Jewish vote.

With Pelosi as speaker, Jewish activists and officials are confident that the U.S. Congress will remain strongly pro-Israel.

“I’ve heard her say numerous times that the single greatest achievement of the 20th century” was the founding of the modern state of Israel, Friedkin wrote…
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=17262&intcategoryid=3

Bad-mouthing such a great supporter of Israel – your not anti-Semitic, perhaps?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Well, that is all well and good. It should be continued.[/quote]

I more meant that Ren was a perfect example of someone spouting off about stem cells without knowing/considering the nuances involved (I’ll give him credit, he at least had a pretty good grasp of the difference between ASCs and ESCs). Saying that stem cells currently have no clinical applications is patently wrong.

If you start by beleiving the hype, then ignore economic ideas like opportunity cost, risk/benefit ratio, and scarcity, I agree.

You keep confusing me with someone who cares about unused embryos. I’m not saying that they have rights, etc. I’m saying Bush made the right decision for the wrong reasons the same way Clinton did. If it assuages some religious fundys, I can’t complain and I think others are wrong to rail against the decision for ‘anti-religious’ reasons.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
I more meant that Ren was a perfect example of someone spouting off about stem cells without knowing/considering the nuances involved (I’ll give him credit, he at least had a pretty good grasp of the difference between ASCs and ESCs). Saying that stem cells currently have no clinical applications is patently wrong.
[/quote]

I did add that second post talking about the blood related work that is having success.

And there are so many conflicting views on everything it is hard to sort out through the mess. Some scientists say we can have cures for some things within a few years, others say those same cures are at least a decade away (both using ASCs).

At least I know more than 80% of the people whose knowledge of stem cells can be summed up as “embryonic stem cell research kills unborn babies.”