Powell Endorses Obama

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:
Well he can endorse who he wants, perhaps he wants to sweep under the rug, his contribution to the onset of the Iraq War…It was his presentation to the security counsel, it was his idea in large part. Maybe he is seeking absolution with what ultimately turned out to be a mistake. Perhaps he should try God himself rather than the proclaimed messiah Obama. Obama can’t erase his sins.

I think Powell has taken more responsibility than any of the top heads have for his WMD fuck up and invasion of Iraq. Explain how it was LARGELY his idea?? So where do Bush,Rumsfeld,and Cheney sit on the “turd totem pole?” [/quote]

Taken responsibility? He ran away rather than try to fix the problem!

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
So I guess Powell is now a traitor…Socialist Marxist…unpatriotic…terrorist…racist nigger…and worse of all…Jamaican Rasta mon.

Guilt by association…that’s how it works,right??

This exact type of trollish dickery is why I haven’t posted here regularly in awhile.

Well,that was my point…that’s the “exact type of trollish dickery” people use to make arguments on here as of late…which is why I rarely post on PWI.[/quote]

Yup, this forum is not what it used to be.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:
Well he can endorse who he wants, perhaps he wants to sweep under the rug, his contribution to the onset of the Iraq War…It was his presentation to the security counsel, it was his idea in large part. Maybe he is seeking absolution with what ultimately turned out to be a mistake. Perhaps he should try God himself rather than the proclaimed messiah Obama. Obama can’t erase his sins.

I think Powell has taken more responsibility than any of the top heads have for his WMD fuck up and invasion of Iraq. Explain how it was LARGELY his idea?? So where do Bush,Rumsfeld,and Cheney sit on the “turd totem pole?”

Taken responsibility? He ran away rather than try to fix the problem![/quote]

The people that could have fixed the problem chose not to…remember,“we” claimed victory in 2003.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:
Well he can endorse who he wants, perhaps he wants to sweep under the rug, his contribution to the onset of the Iraq War…It was his presentation to the security counsel, it was his idea in large part. Maybe he is seeking absolution with what ultimately turned out to be a mistake. Perhaps he should try God himself rather than the proclaimed messiah Obama. Obama can’t erase his sins.

I think Powell has taken more responsibility than any of the top heads have for his WMD fuck up and invasion of Iraq. Explain how it was LARGELY his idea?? So where do Bush,Rumsfeld,and Cheney sit on the “turd totem pole?”

Taken responsibility? He ran away rather than try to fix the problem!

The people that could have fixed the problem chose not to…remember,“we” claimed victory in 2003.[/quote]

He was one of the key people. Everyone else stuck around and tried different ways to fix Iraq. Powell quit so he wouldn’t tarnish his reputation.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:
Well he can endorse who he wants, perhaps he wants to sweep under the rug, his contribution to the onset of the Iraq War…It was his presentation to the security counsel, it was his idea in large part. Maybe he is seeking absolution with what ultimately turned out to be a mistake. Perhaps he should try God himself rather than the proclaimed messiah Obama. Obama can’t erase his sins.

I think Powell has taken more responsibility than any of the top heads have for his WMD fuck up and invasion of Iraq. Explain how it was LARGELY his idea?? So where do Bush,Rumsfeld,and Cheney sit on the “turd totem pole?”

Taken responsibility? He ran away rather than try to fix the problem!

The people that could have fixed the problem chose not to…remember,“we” claimed victory in 2003.

He was one of the key people. Everyone else stuck around and tried different ways to fix Iraq. Powell quit so he wouldn’t tarnish his reputation.

[/quote]

He fucked up…yes…and he fucked up by thinking Iraq would just go away. I think he wanted save face because he knew he would be the scapegoat to take the fall because he was the “voice” for invading Iraq in the first place.

I will admit that he did more harm than good by resigning…but he has gone on the record and verbally taken responsibility for his role…who else has??

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Powell showed his true colors.

One color and it’s BLACK.

I don’t think that’s IT. Powell is a liberal. Now we know for sure though I never had much faith in him to begin with. He advocated the first gulf war (sheepishly), but had no problem with relinquishing command to the UN and agreed with the resolution (or non resolution) not to eliminate Hussein when we had him in our cross hairs and could have saved us and the world all this bullshit were in the middle of now.

Yup. He fucked up GW1. I never liked the guy.[/quote]

Do either of you guys know anything about Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration, or reality? Everyone, Bush, Scowcroft, Cheney and Powell, was against driving on to Baghdad and deposing Saddam. The obvious benefit to Iran was feared, as was the chaos that would result, and the burden we would bear. Sound familiar? Cheney in 1992:

“I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We’d be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home. And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don’t think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn’t a cheap war. And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we’d achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.”

I thought this was common knowledge. Those guys got it right the first time.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Powell showed his true colors.

One color and it’s BLACK.

I don’t think that’s IT. Powell is a liberal. Now we know for sure though I never had much faith in him to begin with. He advocated the first gulf war (sheepishly), but had no problem with relinquishing command to the UN and agreed with the resolution (or non resolution) not to eliminate Hussein when we had him in our cross hairs and could have saved us and the world all this bullshit were in the middle of now.

Yup. He fucked up GW1. I never liked the guy.

Do either of you guys know anything about Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration, or reality? Everyone, Bush, Scowcroft, Cheney and Powell, was against driving on to Baghdad and deposing Saddam. The obvious benefit to Iran was feared, as was the chaos that would result, and the burden we would bear. Sound familiar? Cheney in 1992:

“I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We’d be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home. And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don’t think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn’t a cheap war. And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we’d achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.”

I thought this was common knowledge. Those guys got it right the first time.[/quote]

Bullshit, they should have taken care of it when they had support from the Arab world. Powell was integral to the decision.

2x post.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:

He was one of the key people. Everyone else stuck around and tried different ways to fix Iraq. Powell quit so he wouldn’t tarnish his reputation.

[/quote]

Key people my ass!! It was Powell who told Bush “you break it, you own it”. Other than that the whole lead up to Iraq was being pushed by Cheney, Rummy, Wolfwitz (sp), etc, and Bush liked the idea as well. (Condy didn’t do shit until after 04) And they constantly sidelined Powell. Shit don’t forget it was Cheney and Rummy who pressured the CIA to ‘find evidence’ and ‘really look into information about Iraq links to al-Qaeda (sp) and WMDs’. And the CIA’s head guy (forgot his name) took the fall for that shit.

The only thing Powell was able to do was to convince Bush that he should go through the UN 1st. Because the rest of them though they didn’t need the UN since it would just delay them.

Powell left becuase he was a nobody in the administration. He had been for a while now.

With regards to what everyone else did to fix Iraq. Nobody did shit!! Other than Condy for a lil’ while presuring the DoD to sent troops out and hold territory, but that fell apart. Remember all those offensives in Baghdad ment to clear it of insurgetns? They didn’t fly!. So the Admin just kept hoping the Iraqs will do something. Until then the strategy was keeping the troops in their bases and going out when needed. The only major thing was the retaking of Fallujah in the fall of 04, and battling al-Sadir TWICE! and those were pressing needs. And still, don’t forget it was in December of 04 (well after the election) that Rummy said “you go to war with army you have”. The DoD had to be pressured from the outside to properly supply the army.

Moreover remember the Iraq Study Group made up of EX-gov’t people, including Bush’s father admin members, sent to Iraq before the 06 elections to “find solutions”. It published its report after the Election to avoid political spinning of it.

Yet it wasn’t until after the '06 elections when the Dems won Congress that the Administration really tried to fix Iraq.

Soon after the Election Rummy left, and new people were put in charge. But they were still dragging their feet. Then Zarqawi blew up the Shia mosque in Najaf and sectarian killings were tearing Iraq apart. Because of that mess a new strategy was made. And still the DoD had to be convinced by Petraus(sp) and others to release more troops, and Bush had to intervene in the part of Patraus(sp).

Get ur shit straight man. This ain’t ancient history.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

Bullshit, they should have taken care of it when they had support from the Arab world. Powell was integral to the decision.
[/quote]

Dude!

the US had Arab and world support to LIBERATE KUWAIT!!! Not to take over Iraq too.

The reason why the US had such Arab support was because, if we didn’t intervene it was very likely that Saddam would take over Saudi Arabia, or take its major oil fields that are close to Kuwait. AND the Saudi’s had a crappy army to stop Saddam.
Also, Syria, Egypt, Iran, the 3 other powers of the region would not be to happy to see Iraq become a hegemon in the Middle East.
Nor was the US, Europe,etc happy with the prospect of Saddam being the major power in the middle east.

That is why the UN Security Council able to authorize the use of military force. Nobody wanted a powerful Saddam.

#2.
Arab support and world support would be immidiatly withdrawn had we kept going and takne over Baghdad. And the US alone (maybe somebody else would stick around) would have to deal with Iraq.

#3. Bush father was smart enough to understand that “Liberation” is another word for “military occupation of foreing territory”. And this brings with it a set of responsibilities:
-providing security
-ensuring civil services continue uninterrupted. Such as medical care, water, sewage, electricity, etc.
-building a new national gov’t
-ensuring economic develpment,
-etc,
in other words RUN the fucking country until that native population is able to run it itself. Just look the $$ and time it took to get West-Germany and Japan on their feet after WWII.

G.W Bush, Rummy, Cheney, etc somehow ignored this. And though Iraq would be like another Panama 1989.

But those 2 countries are NOT the same. For example, Manuel Noriega was an usurper to power in an already democratic state. Saddam had been running Iraq since the 70’s, and Iraq had never had a democratic gov’t before that. (there were attempts at a constitutional monarchy under British mandate but that didn’t fly)

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
pat wrote:
Well he can endorse who he wants, perhaps he wants to sweep under the rug, his contribution to the onset of the Iraq War…It was his presentation to the security counsel, it was his idea in large part. …
Taken responsibility? He ran away rather than try to fix the problem!


He was one of the key people. Everyone else stuck around and tried different ways to fix Iraq. Powell quit so he wouldn’t tarnish his reputation.

[/quote]

On his presumed reputation as Secretary of State:

ouch.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Powell showed his true colors.

One color and it’s BLACK.

I don’t think that’s IT. Powell is a liberal. Now we know for sure though I never had much faith in him to begin with. He advocated the first gulf war (sheepishly), but had no problem with relinquishing command to the UN and agreed with the resolution (or non resolution) not to eliminate Hussein when we had him in our cross hairs and could have saved us and the world all this bullshit were in the middle of now.

Yup. He fucked up GW1. I never liked the guy.

Do either of you guys know anything about Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration, or reality? Everyone, Bush, Scowcroft, Cheney and Powell, was against driving on to Baghdad and deposing Saddam. The obvious benefit to Iran was feared, as was the chaos that would result, and the burden we would bear. Sound familiar? Cheney in 1992:

“I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We’d be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home. And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don’t think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn’t a cheap war. And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we’d achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.”

I thought this was common knowledge. Those guys got it right the first time.

Bullshit, they should have taken care of it when they had support from the Arab world. Powell was integral to the decision.
[/quote]

And, AND the reason Bush gave and the biggest campaign cry of Phil Graham a few years later was that the UN resolutions which they were bound to by accepting their command forbade us from killing or even capturing Hussein.

Schwarzkopf flat out stated (I still have that tape somewhere) that they knew where he was and Bush told him to stand down because the UN resolutions did not allow us to harm Saddam Hussein. They cooked up the whole power vacuum argument to explain why they left him alone because he was an instant boil on the world’s ass the second we left and it looked weak to remind us that they had allowed the useless UN to drag us out of there by the nuts.

It sounded better to make it look like our idea. During the 96 campaign Graham was screaming that if elected he would never again send our troops into a conflict under any, but U.S. command. He cited Hussein’s unforgivable survival as the an example of what happens when you do.

Powell was a party to the “we still need him there” routine. This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not crush an enemy when he’s on the ropes. You have to go back and this time it’s 100 times bloodier and more expensive.

[quote]Neospartan wrote:

Yet it wasn’t until after the '06 elections when the Dems won Congress that the Administration really tried to fix Iraq.

… [/quote]

lol What a joke.

[quote]Neospartan wrote:
<<< A lot >>>
[/quote]

So then the logical conclusion of all this is that we would’ve been better off leaving Hussein alone? To this day? It was a pay me now or pay me later scenario right from the start. Nobody with any idea what was going on believed Hussein would one day behave except Boutros Boutros Ghali and Hans Blix in their respective time frames.

It was beyond inevitable that Hussein would have to go eventually and the mess we would’ve had the first time around could not possibly have been worse than the mess we have now. Hussein spurned every UN resolution, bloked inspections, stole billions from the oil for food program and was counting the minutes until those fags would cower away and he could resume his weapons programs.

Unless of course you actually believe things were going just fine the way they were? Whether he actually had the programs in place in 2002 or not is less relevant to me than the fact that we now know for certain he never will though we could have known that a decade, a bunch of human lives and billions of dollars earlier if we had done what was going to have to be done eventually right from the start.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Neospartan wrote:
<<< A lot >>>

So then the logical conclusion of all this is that we would’ve been better off leaving Hussein alone? To this day? It was a pay me now or pay me later scenario right from the start. Nobody with any idea what was going on believed Hussein would one day behave except Boutros Boutros Ghali and Hans Blix in their respective time frames.

It was beyond inevitable that Hussein would have to go eventually and the mess we would’ve had the first time around could not possibly have been worse than the mess we have now. Hussein spurned every UN resolution, bloked inspections, stole billions from the oil for food program and was counting the minutes until those fags would cower away and he could resume his weapons programs.

Unless of course you actually believe things were going just fine the way they were? Whether he actually had the programs in place in 2002 or not is less relevant to me than the fact that we now know for certain he never will though we could have known that a decade, a bunch of human lives and billions of dollars earlier if we had done what was going to have to be done eventually right from the start.[/quote]

I agree with you. However, my argument centers on the fact that the we were not ready.

Maybe back when GW1 happened, with about 600,000 troops, we could have pulled it off in 3years.

But as of 2003! With 140,000 men, the American people not fully commited to the war effort? Definetly not ready.

And I am not even getting into the need for a plan. A plan for the proper administration of an occupied territory with the eventual transition to self-rule. Which it was non existant in both in 1992 and 2003.

Again, we were not ready.
As Sun Tzu would say:
He Will Win Who Knows When To Fight And When Not To Fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.”

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Neospartan wrote:
<<< A lot >>>

So then the logical conclusion of all this is that we would’ve been better off leaving Hussein alone? To this day? It was a pay me now or pay me later scenario right from the start. Nobody with any idea what was going on believed Hussein would one day behave except Boutros Boutros Ghali and Hans Blix in their respective time frames.

It was beyond inevitable that Hussein would have to go eventually and the mess we would’ve had the first time around could not possibly have been worse than the mess we have now. Hussein spurned every UN resolution, bloked inspections, stole billions from the oil for food program and was counting the minutes until those fags would cower away and he could resume his weapons programs.

Unless of course you actually believe things were going just fine the way they were? Whether he actually had the programs in place in 2002 or not is less relevant to me than the fact that we now know for certain he never will though we could have known that a decade, a bunch of human lives and billions of dollars earlier if we had done what was going to have to be done eventually right from the start.[/quote]

Read a decent book or two. In Fiasco, General Anthony Zinni, USMC, former head of Centcom, goes into some detail about how we had Saddam contained.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Powell showed his true colors.

One color and it’s BLACK.

I don’t think that’s IT. Powell is a liberal. Now we know for sure though I never had much faith in him to begin with. He advocated the first gulf war (sheepishly), but had no problem with relinquishing command to the UN and agreed with the resolution (or non resolution) not to eliminate Hussein when we had him in our cross hairs and could have saved us and the world all this bullshit were in the middle of now.

Yup. He fucked up GW1. I never liked the guy.

Do either of you guys know anything about Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration, or reality? Everyone, Bush, Scowcroft, Cheney and Powell, was against driving on to Baghdad and deposing Saddam. The obvious benefit to Iran was feared, as was the chaos that would result, and the burden we would bear. Sound familiar? Cheney in 1992:

“I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We’d be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home. And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don’t think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties, and while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn’t a cheap war. And the question in my mind is, how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is, not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the President made the decision that we’d achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.”

I thought this was common knowledge. Those guys got it right the first time.

Bullshit, they should have taken care of it when they had support from the Arab world. Powell was integral to the decision.

And, AND the reason Bush gave and the biggest campaign cry of Phil Graham a few years later was that the UN resolutions which they were bound to by accepting their command forbade us from killing or even capturing Hussein.

Schwarzkopf flat out stated (I still have that tape somewhere) that they knew where he was and Bush told him to stand down because the UN resolutions did not allow us to harm Saddam Hussein. They cooked up the whole power vacuum argument to explain why they left him alone because he was an instant boil on the world’s ass the second we left and it looked weak to remind us that they had allowed the useless UN to drag us out of there by the nuts.

It sounded better to make it look like our idea. During the 96 campaign Graham was screaming that if elected he would never again send our troops into a conflict under any, but U.S. command. He cited Hussein’s unforgivable survival as the an example of what happens when you do.

Powell was a party to the “we still need him there” routine. This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not crush an enemy when he’s on the ropes. You have to go back and this time it’s 100 times bloodier and more expensive.[/quote]

What? This is one of the weirder conspiracy theories I have heard in a while. Our troops were under U.S. command, as they have always been, a UN mandate does not change who is in command. And if you know anything about Bush Sr.'s realist foreign policy thinking, you would realize that removing Saddam was not something he and his Administration wanted, certainly not if it was U.S. troops charging into Baghdad. Go look up anything Brent Scowcroft has ever said or written. As for Phil Gramm…he’s Phil Gramm. Come on.

I’ll take Schwarzkopf’s word at the very time it was happening. He got the orders and the reasons and the spin hadn’t started yet. I recorded the press conference live at the time. We were already in Baghdad. The famous 100 hour ground campaign costing us less than 100 lives and Stormin Norman said flat out they were on his doorstep and he was ordered to leave him alone because of the UN resolutions. I saw it and heard it myself live on my television.

Actual command or not we bound ourselves to UN resolutions and not our own interests. We are paying at this moment.

The bottom line is the UN was failing miserably like it always does and I was not willing to chance a vicious butcher getting his shot at revenge. It was misprognosed and mishandled, but I am not sorry we did it and remain sorry that we didn’t do it the first time.

[quote]pat wrote:
Iron Dwarf wrote:
Powell sees the same strengths in Obama that all Obama supporters see.

Please list those strengths. Because other than oration, I’d see nothing to get excited about…A lightening tongue may work wonders on a clitoris, but a president it does not make. [/quote]

Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress. He’s sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005. He’s also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate.

Most of his legislative effort has been in the areas of:

  • Energy Efficiency and Climate Change (25 bills)
  • Health care (21 bills) and public health (20 bills)
  • Consumer protection/labor (14 bills)
  • The needs of Veterans and the Armed Forces (13 bills)
  • Congressional Ethics and Accountability (12 bills)
  • Foreign Policy (10 bills)
  • Voting and Elections (9 bills)
  • Education (7 bills)
  • Hurricane Katrina Relief (6)
  • The Environment (5 bills)
  • Homeland Security (4 bills)
  • Discrimination (4 bills)

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
pat wrote:
Iron Dwarf wrote:
Powell sees the same strengths in Obama that all Obama supporters see.

Please list those strengths. Because other than oration, I’d see nothing to get excited about…A lightening tongue may work wonders on a clitoris, but a president it does not make.

Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress. He’s sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005. He’s also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate.

Most of his legislative effort has been in the areas of:

  • Energy Efficiency and Climate Change (25 bills)
  • Health care (21 bills) and public health (20 bills)
  • Consumer protection/labor (14 bills)
  • The needs of Veterans and the Armed Forces (13 bills)
  • Congressional Ethics and Accountability (12 bills)
  • Foreign Policy (10 bills)
  • Voting and Elections (9 bills)
  • Education (7 bills)
  • Hurricane Katrina Relief (6)
  • The Environment (5 bills)
  • Homeland Security (4 bills)
  • Discrimination (4 bills)

[/quote]

What’s with the Clark Gable now?