Contrary to your portrayl of Augustine and his stance on torture.
CHAPTER 6 – OF THE ERROR OF HUMAN JUDGMENTS WHEN THE TRUTH IS HIDDEN.
What shall I say of these judgments which men pronounce on men, and which are necessary in communities, whatever outward peace they enjoy? Melancholy and lamentable judgments they are, since the judges are men who cannot discern the consciences of those at their bar, and are therefore frequently compelled to put innocent witnesses to the torture to ascertain the truth regarding the crimes of other men. What shall I say of torture applied to the accused himself? He is tortured to discover whether he is guilty, so that, though innocent, he suffers most undoubted punishment for crime that is still doubtful, not because it is proved that he committed it, but because it is not ascertained that he did not commit it. Thus the ignorance of the judge frequently involves an innocent person in suffering. And what is still more unendurable – a thing, indeed, to be bewailed, and, if that were possible, watered with fountains of tears – is this, that when the judge puts the accused to the question, that he may not unwittingly put an innocent man to death, the result of this lamentable ignorance is that this very person, whom he tortured that he might not condemn him if innocent, is condemned to death both tortured and innocent. For if he has chosen, in obedience to the philosophical instructions to the wise man, to quit this life rather than endure any longer such tortures, he declares that he has committed the crime which in fact he has not committed. And when he has been condemned and put to death, the judge is still in ignorance whether he has put to death an innocent or a guilty person, though he put the accused to the torture for the very purpose of saving himself from condemning the innocent; and consequently he has both tortured an innocent man to discover his innoence, and has put him to death without discovering it. If such darkness shrouds social life, will a wise judge take his seat on the bench or no? Beyond question he will. For human society, which he thinks it a wickedness to abandon, constrains him and compels him to this duty. And he thinks it no wickedness that innocent witnesses are tortured regarding the crimes of which other men are accused; or that the accused are put to the torture, so that they are often overcome with anguish, and, though innocent, make false confessions regarding themselves, and are punished; or that, though they be not condemned to die, they often die during, or in consequence of, the torture; or that sometimes the accusers, who perhaps have been prompted by a desire to benefit society by bringing criminals to justice, are themselves condemned through the ignorance of the judge, because they are unable to prove the truth of their accusations though they are true, and because the witnesses lie, and the accused endures the torture without being moved to confession. These numerous and important evils he does not consider sins; for the wise judge does these things, not with any intention of doing harm, but because his ignorance compels him, and because human society claims him as a judge. But though we therefore acquit the judge of malice, we must none the less condemn human life as miserable. And if he is compelled to torture and punish the innocent because his office and his ignorance constrain him, is he a happy as well as a guiltless man? Surely it were proof of more profound considerateness and finer feeling were he to recognize the misery of these necessities, and shrink from his own implication in that misery; and had he any piety about him, he would cry to God “From my necessities deliver Thou me.”
I think there is a big difference from advocating, and accepting the general practices of the day.
and in other instances Augustine pleaded for a lesser punishment for most who were prosecuted.
Here is another reference concerning a city that wronged the church from letter 91
“9. Accordingly you cannot in that community draw a distinction between innocent and guilty persons, for all are guilty; but perhaps you may distinguish degrees of guilt. Those are in a comparatively small fault, who, being kept back by fear, especially by fear of offending those whom they knew to have leading influence in the community and to be hostile to the Church, did not dare to render assistance to the Christians; but all are guilty who consented to these outrages, though they neither perpetrated them nor instigated others to the crime: more guilty are those who perpetrated the wrong, and most guilty are those who instigated them to it. Let us, however, suppose that the instigation of others to these crimes is a matter of suspicion rather than of certain knowledge, and let us not investigate those things which can be found out in no other way than by subjecting witnesses to torture.”
Notice how he says lets not investigate things that would make us torture people.
Kind of different than what you describing of Augustine.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
?For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. ?For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. ?For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:6-13
Vroom, on the basis of the teaching of Jesus and upon the Word of God, you are an unrepentant sinner, you are on your way to a Christless and Godless Hell where you will be:
[/quote]
Idiot. Your own quote above simply shows you need to believe. What more do I have to do to please you however? Repenting is an “action” and supposedly, according to some, actions are not important.
[quote]Sure it does – Jesus said that what comes out of the mouth reveals the HEART. Your spewing of venom – which by the way, I could care less about – reveals something evil about your wicked heart. The Bible says that ALL of US – if you are human that includes you too – are sinners and need salvation. Your actions – in this case what you write – show that you have an “evil heart of unbelief,” and the Bible warns that a man in that condition is lost and bound for Hell.
[/quote]
Wrong again boy-o. You are making your own judgments of what is in my heart, but being fallable, as you oh so most certainly are, you are missing the mark by a long shot.
When the Bible talks about the words out of your mouth reflecting your heart, it is talking at a deeper level than whether or not you say FUCK, you moron.
It is talking about things at a much deeper level. If you say things like “nuke the Middle East into the stone ages” it reveals a callous disregard for life, for God’s creations, and it reveals your heart. It doesn’t even require a “bad” word to reveal it.
I think you are misguided and a bad influence on the thinking of any poor soul that you mispreach to. I am upset by your holier than thou tone and “I have the only answer” viewpoint. You don’t have the brainpower necessary to tell other people they can’t understand these things by their own reading.
You seem to be making a lot of judgments you are totally unqualified to make. I’d expect you, by elevating the word of man to that of the God, practicing idolatry, to be in worse shape than myself, because I simply have a sharp tongue from time to time.
Josuha was an Israelian king of the Kingdom of Juda that was able to conquer large parts of the former northern Israelian kingdom, after the Assyrian empire had been significantly weakened.
There were several place sof whorship back then, Joshua destroyed them all.
Around that time, his high priest, Hilkiah , while “renovating” the temple, “found” the Deuteronomy, which though no in name, seemed to strongly suggest that the Temple in Jerusalem was the be the one and only Ueber-temple.
This Joshua cannot have been Moses apprentice, because Moses was long dead then. Joshua (=Jesus) was a pretty common name though.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You know better than that! Jesus never ever said that at all. He said over and over again in the N.T. that a person needs to believe on Him and Him alone for salvation. Read John 3 for example – in fact read the entire Gospel of John and then read Paul’s masterpiece letter to the Romans where it clearly states on several occasions that a man is “not justified by the works of the Law.”
So, what are you talking about, Vroom? You are really out of your league here. I suggest that you stop posting, get a cup of coffee or whatever you drink up there, and READ THE BIBLE. Then comment on this thread. Quite frankly, you have nothing to contribute here.
[/quote]
You are pissing me off… howabout you read the following, that I have stated before, carefully this time, as the last time you responded you got it wrong (thinking Luke 18:18 when you responded to Luke 10:25):
So, show me how you are going to disagree with the words of Jesus himself… you fundamental literalist halfwit.
[i] Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.[/i]
This is NOT the rich man parable… which is quoted further below. This is Jesus saying you can get to heaven without any mention of requirements concerning himself in any way. Go ahead and claim Jesus got it wrong.
Are you telling me Jesus doesn’t know how men are to get into heaven? Fool.
[i] Luke 18:15
And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. [/i]
Also, it would appear that children, who have obviously never even learned to read, much less had an opportunity to read anything approaching a bible, will be received because of who they are, not their belief.
Are you suggesting that God would deny entrance to children, whether or not they were Christian, when obviously Jesus suggests otherwise? You must, according to your claims of only one route to salvation.
Strange, how you claim to be so devout but your words counter those of Jesus. Very strange indeed. I’ll take the word of Jesus over yours anyday.
[i] Luke 18:18
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[/i]
This IS the rich man parable! Jesus says he lacks ONE THING. This one thing is giving unto his fellow man, he must sell his possessions and share amongst the poor.
Jesus is not lying, surely this man could give away his belongings, show love for his fellow man and not just accumulate possessions instead and thus achieve an eternal afterlife… according to Jesus.
Basically, a rich man violates what Jesus says in Luke 10:25, loving thy neighbor as theyself. If you love thy neighbor as theyself you won’t collect riches for thyself as your neighbor starves and freezes. After all, which is more important?
Again, the requirement is following the commandments, loving God and caring for your fellow man. This has nothing to do with anything else. Are you going to argue against Jesus again? Are you suggesting Jesus was lying? Jesus repeats his message over and over. Be good. Care for people. Love God. That’s it.
[i] James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.[/i]
Basically, faith is not enough on it’s own. You also have to do works, accoridng to the above. Oh no. The works are important too… how can that be according to your “preachings”?
Perhaps you should learn to read before you go on making pronouncements that differ form the words of Jesus, according to the Bible? Also, before you claim others do not know what is written in it.
You are an idolatrist and a fool. You are lost. Now fuck off and do some reading and thinking.
I think Augustine was very conflicted over torture(as you can see from one of his writings). While he seemed to see it as a necessary evil, he still thought of it as evil.
I think Augustine was very conflicted over torture(as you can see from one of his writings). While he seemed to see it as a necessary evil, he still thought of it as evil.
[/quote]
But still…what does Augustine have to do with the Bible being a violent book?
Some nut could read the dictionary, see the word “murder” in it and then go on a murder spree.
Would you blame the dictionary?
There’s really no point in orions argument. It’s simply a way for him to demonstrate his own hate for the word of God. It’s certainly no more than this.
I think Augustine was very conflicted over torture(as you can see from one of his writings). While he seemed to see it as a necessary evil, he still thought of it as evil.
But still…what does Augustine have to do with the Bible being a violent book?
Some nut could read the dictionary, see the word “murder” in it and then go on a murder spree.
Would you blame the dictionary?
There’s really no point in orions argument. It’s simply a way for him to demonstrate his own hate for the word of God. It’s certainly no more than this.
[/quote]
Agreed, he has already said he can’t show it being advocated by Christ, or any of the othe Apostles. I thought the question would be an interesting one. I asked because I am a nerd for a descent discussion. I may not get it though considering his current bias.
We are all sons of the creator but if people just thought of him as one of God’s sons that died not THE son, then the sacrifice is lessened in our human eyes. [/quote]
[quote]We can be adopted sons of God by accepting the sacrifice from his one and only son Jesus Christ!
John 3:16:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
The above passage is very clear and there are many others to back it up.[/quote]
The creator made you and I we are it’s “sons”. Again the Bible is a great story put into human concepts of father and son to help us understand our relationship with the creator.
[quote]Jesus Christ was sent to show us a way of being, not necessarily to be a martyr…
You say he was not “necessarily to be a martyr.” But you see he died so that you and I could have eternal life through his great sacrifice.
If that is not a matyr then what is?[/quote]
He was meant to be an example of the way to god. Not necessarily just through worshipping him for his sacrifice but to live as he did with compassion for all beings. Kind of what we were talking of earlier with the Buddha( which I agree on your talking points on that subject). However if people lived Jesus’s way of being that is what it meant by “through him” as the path to heaven. A great example of the falsehood of not living his path but saying it. Have you ever waited tables? Ask anyone that does and they’ll tell you. The worst day to wait tables? Sunday, why? The church crowd, its like they just had their sins forgiven and they are starting fresh with you. Rude, intolerable, spiteful are all good descriptions for the general crowd. Now if you asked any of these people, they are all going to heaven because praise Jesus! I’ll accept that only because the creator is way more forgiving than I could hope to be;] However on a daily basis, based on MY encounters, more than half the god-fearing, church-going, Jesus is the savior people I meet are a far cry from compassionate and humble and live as Hesus did. Funny though way more than half the Buddhists I meet are living the right way all the time.
[quote]Since you STILL haven’t addressed my original contention(which was repeated in the second post as well), that these scriptures were in fact written by men and thus have human influence/bias on the message.
I did address it and will do so again:
If one particular “writer” stated something that was by itself off beat and not in line with the other “writers” then you might have a point.
However, as I already posted for you, every single book of the Bible (New testamnet) clearly states that Jesus Christ came to die for your sins. And that through your acceptance of this fact and acknowledging him as THE savior you are going to heaven.
[/quote]
Man wrote the book but God inspired it! And it is a work that flows and is consistent in every way. What do you think about the inconsistencies pointed out by hspder a few posts ago? Please tell me you can give a better response than Steveo’s incoherent ramblings in response to his post.
[quote]Furthermore, there are som 300 predictions of Jesus Christs coming in the Old Testament.
It is very clear that there is only one way to the father and that is Jesus Christ! And the scripture backs that up in every book of the Bible!
What would be the point of Jesus Christ coming to earth if someone can be saved in so many other ways? It would have been illogical for God to send such a sacrifice if any other belief would do as well
Again Zeb you are trying to apply our human concept of logic to a power that is beyond all of this.
I certainly don’t know the mind of God. And in fact it says in the Bible that no one knows the mind of God.
But I do know what his word says. And I do know that if you are going to make such a great sacrifice then it is for a reason!
Jesus Christ came to earth for a very important reason. And that reason was to save you and I from an eternity in hell.
And I have seen no other way to reach the father but through Jesus Christ![/quote] Because you have not seen other ways does not make it so
Any man who belittles other’s beliefs when they are wonderful, compassionate, truly helpful enlightened beings and calls them a fraud will have some reflection to do on how wrapped up in their zealotry they have become!
[quote]The early peoples that inhabited the earth did so with a reverence and symbiotic relationship to the earth which was God.
You are off base with that comment.
The earth is not God!
God created the earth, he is not THE earth.
We must never worship the created, just the creator![/quote] OK you are correct in that God is not technically the earth. What I meant is that these early people saw God as the wind, water, air, etc. They lived and breathed reverence to this which was their concept of god or our creator.
They sure as heck showed more respect to God’s creation than later man did/does. Trust me when I say that many of these people went to the creator and it wasn’t through worshipping Jesus, it was living as he would have. If you question this concept you might meditate/pray more deeply and let the truth be revealed to you
As man became more “civilized” and started bastardizing the message. Ie. sacrificing humans as if that would appease the creator, or more recently swindling money and using politics, money, power to “spread the word of God” that is when the crator sees a need to send a messenger, a wake up call if you will that we have strayed from the path. It does not mean that these early cultures were wrong or not in heaven, because they are. It means that the beautiful relationship of god/nature was spoiled by human avarice and needed a new reminder.
[quote]To reduce Jesus Christs great sacrifice as a mere reminder is quite wrong minded.
Jesus Christ is THE word!
And he came to sacrifice his life so that you could live an eternal life with him in heaven.
Please take our your Bible and do some reading my friend.[/quote] I think to reduce the entire message I posted to “you called Jesus a reminder” is quite near sighted. People had become paganistic and ritualistic instead of living as children of God in harmony. This reminder of what God wanted came in the form of Jesus, but in no way was he “just a reminder” he gave an ultimate sacrifice to spare you and I from eternal damnation–not a light weight kind of thing!
This I cannot argue, I’m sure many things can be found wrong including myself according to a strict adherence of the scriptures. I however know for a fact that I am blessed in God’s eye and that no amount of other christian “do-gooders” condemning me and my views on the creator will keep me from heaven.
[b] Didn’t you just say that the Torah was the inspired word of God, written down by Moses? Or was that SteveO? You keep pointing out that there is a right and wrong. You are right even Jesus pointed out things that are right and wrong. This was because of the audience. We as humans are sinners and are capable of horrific acts of violence, we need a moral leash. God does not and the creator does not boil things down to one right way to eternal life and one wrong way. Although Christianity is certainly the easiest way. Live a life full of sin and at the very end as long as you are truly repentant, you get eternal life. Buddhism by comparison is much harder as far as escaping the illusion here on earth. One way of the Muslims has to be the least enlightened way–blow yourself and some innocents up and you get a free ticket.[/quote]
Why can’t this be my opinion based on what I have read in the Bible? Because you say so? I would probably hate your church–no room for exploring the message. Just STFU read the Bible verse for verse, no questions, no interpretation, word of god, STFU.
[quote]
Men are way too different in various parts of a city, much less all over the world to agree on one standard way.
Christianity began with only a few disciples. It is currently the largest most important relgion in the world with about 2.1 billion Christians! And it has reached practically every part of the world.
Souls are being saved every day.
As the Bible states, there is only one way to the father and that is through Jesus Christ!
The trouble starts when you say “See you’re wrong cause my book says you’re wrong and my book says that my guy is the right one and the only one, so your religion is pointless and meaningless cause you’ll never get to heaven like me, nah na nah na”
Tell me why was Jesus Christ killed?
Do you know why Paul was crucified upside down?
Do you know what other disciples have been executed and or beaten?
They were killed, beaten and imprisoned because the world did not want to hear that there is only ONE WAY TO THE FATHER![/quote]
Ummm…thats YOUR analysis. More accurately is that they were a threat to the ideals of the current regime–the Roman Empire. They were attacked in the same way that a messenger of any contradictory thought structure were. What you should have said os that these men were willing to be killed, beaten and imprisoned because the world did not want to hear that there is only ONE WAY TO THE FATHER!
Zeb, come on now buddy let’s stay on topic. Drunk driving may place someone else’s life in harm, so of course I’m gonna tell my buddy. I’ll let my buddy choose his faith though, ya know this being America and all
This justification is what breeds actions like that asshole minister from Louisiana? that has his congregation out with hateful posters against homosexuality but more disgustingly at soldier’s funerals. Ask that guy, for sure he believes in Jesus and believes he is going to heaven. He doesn’t deserve to in my eyes. But again the creator is much more forgiving than I
Considering the amount of healing that I have helped people with and the afflictions that we have seen cured and the amount of times people have blessed me for changing the course of their lives, I think I’m doing ok, so does “it”
[quote]
If YOU do not tell them they are wrong who will?[/quote]
Why you and SteveO, and that evangelical minister of course;]
[quote]
I can assure after many talks with the divine that your narrow sightedness won’t keep you from salvation but it will make you come back to learn more humility.
Is this some sort of allusion to reincarnation?
Where does it talk about reincarnation in the Bible?[/quote]
Do you really need me to grab the scripture to tell you where it talks about reincarnation and rising from the dead once again?
I have accepted Christ and I have these beliefs. More importantly by my acceptance of Christ, I have not “escaped judgement”, I still have a life of help, compassion, and love to lead and can’t take the easy way out.
Wow why the low blow, Zeb? It is because of my high standards that I look critically at all texts and works of art. The Bible should be no different. If God himself made a text magically appear(like the immaculate conception) and there was no refuting that it was the direct word of God, I would have no questions for the creator on his wishes. However a book written by men is bound to have some of the flaws that we men carry.
[quote]
If the Bible is wrong (because they are only men with no divine inspiration, in your opinion) then why accept Jesus Christ at all?
If you don’t think that he was cricified died and was buried. And after three days rose again in bodily form then the message is either a lie (which you deny) or it’s so badly mangled that it’s simply a bunch of words thrown together on pages written by men who are not very accurate with their wirtings…[/quote]
I never said the Bible was wrong. What is right and wrong is your domain. I am merely pointing out there because it is a work of men, there may be some inconsistencies and flaws due to the views of the men that wrote it. I’m not even saying that there are these flaws, only the possibility which makes me want to explore the interpretation of this awesome text.
I believe that he roamed the earth, I believe that he died for our sins, that kind of sacrifice should not go unaccepted. However my acceptance of him does not negate my acceptance or tolerance for other ideas/messages from the same creator
I have read all the major religious texts and studied hundreds of other philosophies and paths to the divine. I think that all the great ones have the same message when boiled down but the dogma, rituals, and some tenets change and obscure the message. I believe in Jesus Christ and his message, I can’t say that I only believe the scriptures word for word, as they are the words of men(albeit inspired by God)
I never thought of Augustine as a bloodthirsty psychopath, I just said that he laid the intellectual foundation on which the Inquisition was built.
That he saw first that killing heretics is a rational necessity if there is only one true way to God can hardly be held against him.
You are arguing like a character witness, giving testimony that Augustine was not a bad guy.
Point conceded, he was also extremely clever…
So clever in fact that I cannot find the flaw in the reasoning that leads from “the Bible and Jesus is the only way to God” to “kill those who commit the worst thinkable crime, killing peoples eternal souls”.
If you cannot crack that nut, maybe there is some built-in violence in the NT because books like that do not operate in a social vacuum.
In and of itself maybe peaceful, once it encounters social resistance violence is allmost inevitable?
I think Augustine was very conflicted over torture(as you can see from one of his writings). While he seemed to see it as a necessary evil, he still thought of it as evil.
But still…what does Augustine have to do with the Bible being a violent book?
Some nut could read the dictionary, see the word “murder” in it and then go on a murder spree.
Would you blame the dictionary?
There’s really no point in orions argument. It’s simply a way for him to demonstrate his own hate for the word of God. It’s certainly no more than this.
Agreed, he has already said he can’t show it being advocated by Christ, or any of the othe Apostles. I thought the question would be an interesting one. I asked because I am a nerd for a descent discussion. I may not get it though considering his current bias.
[/quote]
I am not commenting on the Bible itself because I am still reading it.
However, I first started with how that book was put together, by whom and why, cui bono and all that…
Hating the word of God?
Which God? Which Words?
I have nothing against Jesus as a philosopher, with the exception of him having a pacifist streak.
Pacifism, me not like. Cowardice disguised as moral superiority.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
But what do you do with Jesus’ statement that “I am THE WAY…” etc. Just ignore it?[/quote]
First of all, since the Bible is only inspired by God, and those are translations of witness accounts – and, therefore, extremely unreliable – no-one can say for sure it was exactly what Jesus said.
Second, even if it is an extremely precise translation of what he said, well, it is actually a rather vague statement that is as open to interpretation as the statement in regards to the rich…
Human language is far from precise… That’s why we have Math and (computer) programming languages.
Maybe the Bible should have been written in C… That would clearly have saved at least a couple of billion lives. Unfortunately Kernighan and Ritchie were born a couple of thousand years too late.
I’m not sure that makes much sense. I’ve heard this before and I have the same response.
What sort of a philosopher of note lies and says he is the son of God, and claims that the only way to the father is through him?
No, sorry orion, you really have to take him at his word, what he says he is, or you have to think that he’s a liar or a nut.
[/quote]
I think I did write that I started with how the Bible was put together and by whom?
In the four books that are left,he is the son of God. How big are the chances that only four people wrote his story down? Why are those 4 the main part of the NT and others aren?t?
I am embarassed to admit that I have this ugly rumor from the movie “The Da Vinci-code” :
Till the first council it was not even sure if Jesus was the son of God or not. After it was over, millions of people suddenly had a messiah, where they only had a Rabbi before…
If this is really true…
Be that as it may,
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind’s true liberation…
I never thought of Augustine as a bloodthirsty psychopath, I just said that he laid the intellectual foundation on which the Inquisition was built.
That he saw first that killing heretics is a rational necessity if there is only one true way to God can hardly be held against him.
You are arguing like a character witness, giving testimony that Augustine was not a bad guy.
Point conceded, he was also extremely clever…
So clever in fact that I cannot find the flaw in the reasoning that leads from “the Bible and Jesus is the only way to God” to “kill those who commit the worst thinkable crime, killing peoples eternal souls”.
If you cannot crack that nut, maybe there is some built-in violence in the NT because books like that do not operate in a social vacuum.
In and of itself maybe peaceful, once it encounters social resistance violence is allmost inevitable? [/quote]
I think that becomes more of a human error rather than a Spiritual/religious one. Remove God from the equation and oppression will still exist. So will many atrocities that we have had happen. I have posted a similiar argument before, but I will try to restate it here.
holding Christianity responsibile for the atrocties that the men in power behind it is a wrong place for the blame. Just as much like blaming Atheism for Stalin’s lack of human respect is an error. The truth is insane men in power are as dangerous as corrupt politicans in power. There realling is nothing to blame expect the person who weilded the power. Christianity isn’t to blame, the abusers of the message are to blame.
I’m not sure that makes much sense. I’ve heard this before and I have the same response.
What sort of a philosopher of note lies and says he is the son of God, and claims that the only way to the father is through him?
No, sorry orion, you really have to take him at his word, what he says he is, or you have to think that he’s a liar or a nut.
I think I did write that I started with how the Bible was put together and by whom?
In the four books that are left,he is the son of God. How big are the chances that only four people wrote his story down? Why are those 4 the main part of the NT and others aren?t?
I am embarassed to admit that I have this ugly rumor from the movie “The Da Vinci-code” :
Till the first council it was not even sure if Jesus was the son of God or not. After it was over, millions of people suddenly had a messiah, where they only had a Rabbi before…
If this is really true…
Be that as it may,
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind’s true liberation…
What?s not to like?
Except for the pacifism part.[/quote]
All I have to say is you got it from the da vinci code. nuff said.
[quote]orion wrote:
I am not commenting on the Bible itself because I am still reading it.
[/quote]
fair enough
Up to this point I have held of on taking about how it was put together since I didn’t know what level our conversation was going to be at. The last few post seemed to have alot less bias(possibly just my perception) in them. So the ability to discuss the Bible and its formation is now an option.
[quote]
Hating the word of God?
Which God? Which Words?
I have nothing against Jesus as a philosopher, with the exception of him having a pacifist streak.
Pacifism, me not like. Cowardice disguised as moral superiority. [/quote]
I hear it both ways. Jesus was a pacifist, or he was a judge bent on sending the unforgiven world to hell.
I think sometimes people are too busy trying to make it fit into their idea of who he should have been, rather than trying to catch what he meant.
I never thought of Augustine as a bloodthirsty psychopath, I just said that he laid the intellectual foundation on which the Inquisition was built.
That he saw first that killing heretics is a rational necessity if there is only one true way to God can hardly be held against him.
You are arguing like a character witness, giving testimony that Augustine was not a bad guy.
Point conceded, he was also extremely clever…
So clever in fact that I cannot find the flaw in the reasoning that leads from “the Bible and Jesus is the only way to God” to “kill those who commit the worst thinkable crime, killing peoples eternal souls”.
If you cannot crack that nut, maybe there is some built-in violence in the NT because books like that do not operate in a social vacuum.
In and of itself maybe peaceful, once it encounters social resistance violence is allmost inevitable?
I think that becomes more of a human error rather than a Spiritual/religious one. Remove God from the equation and oppression will still exist. So will many atrocities that we have had happen. I have posted a similiar argument before, but I will try to restate it here.
holding Christianity responsibile for the atrocties that the men in power behind it is a wrong place for the blame. Just as much like blaming Atheism for Stalin’s lack of human respect is an error. The truth is insane men in power are as dangerous as corrupt politicans in power. There realling is nothing to blame expect the person who weilded the power. Christianity isn’t to blame, the abusers of the message are to blame.
[/quote]
Explain to me how the message was abused? Where is the flaw in Augustines logic?
Enemies of the state were also killed, but without any further ado, those kings hardly needed an excuse to kill.
As long as you cannot show were Augustine is wrong, killing heretics/agnostics/atheists is allmost a moral obligation for a true Christian.
Those people were NOT insane. They had their untouchable premisses and they worked from there.
If I raped and killed your child, it would be ok for me to die, wouldn?t it?
If I endangered it?s immortal soul, which is infinitely worse, what should you do?
(Shamelessly stolen from Sam Harris).
I am beginning to understand that the message of a religion is allmost irrelevant as long as there is “the one and only path”-clause in it.
Which is probably why Buddhists rarely kill for religious reasons.