Post Here To Accept Jesus Christ

[quote]Dr. Stig wrote:

Ok, Ok, I’m catholic by default. I just like crossing swords with people like you, its not internet hatred/hardmanship because I tend to do this in real life too. Its just inconvenient because we are in different countries.

But then again in ‘real life’ if I was sounding off to you and SteveO I think there would be a good case of bystander apathy than the fiery rhetoric you have displayed using your keyboard.

I bid you good day, or whatever it is you SUV driving sinners get up to in the Colonies.

:wink:

[/quote]

I think I get it. Take care Stig.

[quote]hspder wrote:
My complaint here is simply the lack of respect I’m seeing for other people’s beliefs. One does not have to agree in order to respect.

[/quote]

I agree with that.

I think that it’s pointless to name call and call and resort to personal attacks simply because there is a difference of opinion.

In fact I think the best way to advance ones own ideas is without all of the meaningless name calling. This only demonstrates a serious lack of respect for the other guys beliefs. And renders your own point pretty much useless.

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
Zeb,

none of these scriptures say that we will live forever in hell.[/quote]

I’m sure that you are well intended but you are incorrect.

Here are just two:

Luke 16:23, everlasting punishment!

Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Everlasting punishment says it all!

You will not simply be burned up and disapear. You will be existing in everlasting punishment.

It’s very very clear!

According to whom? Hollywood? That is certainly not what the Bible states. Again, don’t be deceived by those who would have you believe that there is no eternal punishment.

There is and it’s clearly stated in the Bible!

It scares people away? It ought to scare them toward…

Do you know what the word “saved” means in this context?

It means that you are “saved” from eternal damnation!

I agree with this point!

It clearly states that in the end “even the elect will be deceived.”

And your very point that hell is only temporary is a complete deception.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I don’t think that you are purposely deceiving anyone. But I do think that you have been deceived and are passing that deception along.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Oh I agree some things are stated metaphorically. But others are not. And it seems that hell is mentioned as a place of fire many times, and not (to my estimation) metaphorically. In fact, it seems more descriptive.

However, I could be wrong. There are many out there who are far better than me at interpreting scripture. You could be one them.

[/quote]

Maybe this brakdown will help…

?And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12.2)

disgrace and contempt don’t give us a picture of flames and torment.

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.? (matt 8.11ff)

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 13.40)

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13.47)

Then the king told the attendants, ?Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.? (matt 22.13)

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ?My master is staying away a long time,? 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 24.48ff)

Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (matt 25.28ff)

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff)

The weeping and gnashing of teeth seems to be a description of the sorrow that will be experienced from the emotional/shame knowledge of having denied God, and been seperated.
There doesn’t seem to be physical pain implied.

Notice the passage of luke that the weeping doesn’t start until they see their seperation.

not to mention that there are different levels of punishment that are described.

How can you have different levels of pain when you are burbing in the same fire.

Fire is a very descriptive metaphorical term used through out the Bible.

Why Christianity took on a Dante’s version of hell I will never know, but it seems to be very absent from the OT, and it existance in the NT is to relate to the people of that day that not the physiacl torment that one would experience, but the emotional torment that would exist. Which would come from the seperation from God.

That is in my opinion the real meaning behind those descriptions.

I really like C.S. Lewis book the great divorce. I think it represents Hell rather well.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
hspder wrote:
My complaint here is simply the lack of respect I’m seeing for other people’s beliefs. One does not have to agree in order to respect.

In fact I think the best way to advance ones own ideas is without all of the meaningless name calling. This only demonstrates a serious lack of respect for the other guys beliefs. And renders your own point pretty much useless.[/quote]

It renders my “own point pretty much useless”? Why? I don’t get it.

Did I say that only one of the sides of the discussion is showing lack of respect? Where did I do that?

Or am I missing something?

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I follow my heart without hesitation
[/quote]

I’m sure that you do. The only problem with that is that if everyone follows their heart, as you put it, we come up with people like Hitler. He was only following his own heart, and I’m sure he thought he was correct.

You don’t believe that what he did was sinful, but I do.

And we are all sinners in need of repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ.

You have an unwillingness to at least explore the Bible.

I have studied Buddhism and other very interesting philosophies. And I have found them helpful in many ways.

I think it’s good to set aside your own bias on occasion and at least explore the other guys point of view.

I’ve enjoyed our exchange and I thank you for keeping it civil.

It is quite a sport, Christian bashing. And many on this site are gold medal winners!

:slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:
ZEB wrote:
haney wrote:

I think it’s safe to say that we agree: Hell would be an awful place to be!

I would agree I wouldn’t want to go there.

Once again though I think the literal flames are a mistake that the modern church holds.

The Greek word for “fire” is “pur.”

For example in Matthew 18:9 Jesus says:

"And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

There are of course several references to “fire.”

What are you basing your interpretation on. If not “literal” then what is meant by “pur” or in english “fire?”

My interpretation is based off of the Bible be descriptive in nature.

For example does Satan look like a
Dragon, roaring lion, or a serpant?

Or is it required that our faith be the actual size of a mustard seed?

Does God really fly on the wings of Angels?

Oh I agree some things are stated metaphorically. But others are not. And it seems that hell is mentioned as a place of fire many times, and not (to my estimation) metaphorically. In fact, it seems more descriptive.

However, I could be wrong. There are many out there who are far better than me at interpreting scripture. You could be one them.

[/quote]

on a side note.

I wouldn’t expect most to agree with me. As I stated more than once I would be considered a heretic by my own church if I said what I believe about these subjects.

There are many other topics which main stream Christianity believe are correct interpretations.

i.e. Revelations is a big one. I go round and round with my dad, who is a former baptist minister.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:
I follow my heart without hesitation

I’m sure that you do. The only problem with that is that if everyone follows their heart, as you put it, we come up with people like Hitler. He was only following his own heart, and I’m sure he thought he was correct.

You don’t believe that what he did was sinful, but I do.

And we are all sinners in need of repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ.

You have an unwillingness to at least explore the Bible.

I have studied Buddhism and other very interesting philosophies. And I have found them helpful in many ways.

I think it’s good to set aside your own bias on occasion and at least explore the other guys point of view.

I’ve enjoyed our exchange and I thank you for keeping it civil.

It is quite a sport, Christian bashing. And many on this site are gold medal winners!

:slight_smile:

[/quote]

…sir, if this is all you have gleaned from my posts, then there’s little i can add. Western society is saturized with christian dogma, and as i’m a western european, i’m no stranger to it’s teachings. It is not for me, no kind of religion is…

…as for folowing your heart; Hitler wasn’t following his heart, he was led by fascination, hatred and contempt. If in your mind that is following your heart than i’m not surprised you have the attitude you have…

…religion is exclusive, it sets people apart and thus divides people. I happen to think that is bad thing…

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…as for folowing your heart; Hitler wasn’t following his heart, he was led by fascination, hatred and contempt. If in your mind that is following your heart than i’m not surprised you have the attitude you have…[/quote]

You never really defined what exactly “following your heart” means. If it means simply doing what you feel is best and being guided by your conscience or lack thereof, then Hitler was most definitely “following his heart.”

If it means something else, please correct me.

[quote]…religion is exclusive, it sets people apart and thus divides people. I happen to think that is bad thing…

[/quote]

I happen to think that it’s a very good thing, as long it’s based on something that God has ordained. I like clearly defined lines, as it helps society function. And it helps people understand right from wrong.

(If you’re a parent you understand-If you’re in your 20’s and childless you might not)

This is “bad.”

This is “good.”

They’re called rules, and any time that I have seen anything be it a sports team, a business or a anything else not operate under certain rules then there is chaos.

And we need to separate those who obey the rules from those who do not.

God’s laws are something very similar.

Can you imagine a society without laws?

Hey…everyone can now just “follow their heart.”

Red does not mean “stop” and green does not mean “go.”

They are now just suggestions…Or better yet let’s take down all of the traffic signs and everyone do what you weant!

Weeeeeeeeee…we’re all FREE…

YIKES!

God does have rules for you and for me. You can choose to ignore them. You can even choose to ignore God. (I’m not saying that you do, please don’t take that wrong).

But to walk around thinking that there is no right or wrong. No sin…it’s all in your mind…well, I just can’t agree with that, it sounds “dysfunctional” at best. And very dangerous at worst.

In the end there are always going to be rules. Everyone doing their own thing never works out.

As we can see with the Hitler example. His “thing” was killing innocent people. Other peoples “thing” might be rape, or something else equally hidious.

There is always a need to set people apart and divide them based on a whole bunch of different circumstances.

[quote]hspder wrote:
ZEB wrote:
hspder wrote:
My complaint here is simply the lack of respect I’m seeing for other people’s beliefs. One does not have to agree in order to respect.

In fact I think the best way to advance ones own ideas is without all of the meaningless name calling. This only demonstrates a serious lack of respect for the other guys beliefs. And renders your own point pretty much useless.

It renders my “own point pretty much useless”? Why? I don’t get it.

Did I say that only one of the sides of the discussion is showing lack of respect? Where did I do that?

Or am I missing something?
[/quote]

Did I say that only one side of the discussion is showing a lack of respect?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

You never really defined what exactly “following your heart” means. If it means simply doing what you feel is best and being guided by your conscience or lack thereof, then Hitler was most definitely “following his heart.”

If it means something else, please correct me.[/quote]

…we’ve all been frustrated or fascinated with something upto the point of obsessiveness. This issue starts to dominate every thought and influences our actions. If we observe this happening we can clearly see a difference between a mental shortcircuit and conscience. Granted, if the balance shifted too far into the obsessive, most end up in the looney bin. Some become world leaders…

…for me, following my heart means that there’s a difference between thought and knowing what’s best. Sometimes i don’t want to do something when i know it’s better to do it anyway. Following ones heart is like drifting downstream, and giving into obsessiveness is wading against a fierce current. Don’t think i can explain it any better, if it’s not clear now…

[quote]…religion is exclusive, it sets people apart and thus divides people. I happen to think that is bad thing…

I happen to think that it’s a very good thing, as long it’s based on something that God has ordained. I like clearly defined lines, as it helps society function. And it helps people understand right from wrong.[/quote]

…muslims think the same way, and some are willing to die and kill to get their point across. Will you do the same?

[quote](If you’re a parent you understand-If you’re in your 20’s and childless you might not)

This is “bad.”

This is “good.”

They’re called rules, and any time that I have seen anything be it a sports team, a business or a anything else not operate under certain rules then there is chaos.

[/quote]

…if you require rules to live your life than be my guest and heed those rules all you want. There are rules, that is true, but they’re innate, they’re known if honesty is something that is not feared. If fear is something you’ve been honest about…

[quote]And we need to separate those who obey the rules from those who do not.

God’s laws are something very similar.

Can you imagine a society without laws?

Hey…everyone can now just “follow their heart.”[/quote]

…being christian does not mean you follow the rules, it just gives you an excuse to say i’m a sinner, i’m sorry and then do it all over again. I make mistakes only once, and then try not to repeat them…

[quote]Red does not mean “stop” and green does not mean “go.”

They are now just suggestions…Or better yet let’s take down all of the traffic signs and everyone do what you weant!

Weeeeeeeeee…we’re all FREE…

YIKES![/quote]

…i do understand that people who would otherwise go an a rampage without some moral restraint need rules like these, but i’m not one of them…

[quote]God does have rules for you and for me. You can choose to ignore them. You can even choose to ignore God. (I’m not saying that you do, please don’t take that wrong).

But to walk around thinking that there is no right or wrong. No sin…it’s all in your mind…well, I just can’t agree with that, it sounds “dysfunctional” at best. And very dangerous at worst.[/quote]
…let’s see: i’m 35, i’m celibate, don’t tell big lies, help those who ask for it, am generally kind to people, like animals and children [but don’t have any] and love life. How dysfunctional am i?

[quote]In the end there are always going to be rules. Everyone doing their own thing never works out.

As we can see with the Hitler example. His “thing” was killing innocent people. Other peoples “thing” might be rape, or something else equally hidious.[/quote]

…morals imposed by religion never solved any of the problems we face as human beings. It didn’t stop crime, war, hunger, poverty, injustice, racism, slavery and bigotry. In some cased it supported and aggravated them. Religion has had 2000 years to do it right, and it failed. Let’s try something else…

[quote]There is always a need to set people apart and divide them based on a whole bunch of different circumstances.
[/quote]

…and that is why religion isn’t the way to unite this planet and it’s inhabitants. We should come together based on our similarities as humans. It’s impossible to unite people who separate themselves based on ideas and beliefs. Again, let’s learn from the past and go another route…

[quote]hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
The pope also needs to be saved!

1 BILLION Catholics beg to differ.

You seem to believe you can get away with just about anything. So let’s do this:

If you have the balls to go to the Vatican, and say, to the Pope’s face, that he is NOT saved already, and post a video recording (of you doing that) on the Internet, you have my solemn word that I will Accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior – because, honestly, only the power of a God working through you would give you the guts to do that.

Seriously, I am not kidding. Do that and I WILL believe. It’s proof enough for me.
[/quote]

[b]

Again…

GOD + Nobody = A majority!

The Bible says: “For ALL [popes included] have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.”

The Bible says: “For there is no righteous, no not one…”

The Bible says: [Jesus’ quote]: “Ye must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.”

These are not suggestions, my friend. God has spoken and God rules it all.
Either you will accept the Word of God, or you will continue to be deceived by the word of man.

God loves all people – catholic people included – and wishes that they, too, will come to Him on HIS TERMS and be saved.

[quote]hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
The pope also needs to be saved!

1 BILLION Catholics beg to differ.

You seem to believe you can get away with just about anything. So let’s do this:

If you have the balls to go to the Vatican, and say, to the Pope’s face, that he is NOT saved already, and post a video recording (of you doing that) on the Internet, you have my solemn word that I will Accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior – because, honestly, only the power of a God working through you would give you the guts to do that.

Seriously, I am not kidding. Do that and I WILL believe. It’s proof enough for me.
[/quote]

I can honestly say to you that if I ever had the priviledge of visiting Rome and would be allowed to speak directly to the pope, I would ask him (the first question after “hello”) when he was born-again. I would ask him the date that it happend. If he could not tell me, or if he would tell me that he is not and doesn’t have to be, I would then read him John chapter 3 and ask him why he doesn’t believe in God’s Word.

I honestly would do this if I had the opportunity. Of course, I would be respectful in the process.

Unfortunately, I don’t think he will take my call…

[quote]miniross wrote:
ZEB wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
This is where I disagree with Steveo and Zeb.

“Eternal Hell” is a myth.

Don’t be deceived!

Jesus Christ spoke of Hell more than he did Heaven!

He was so negative.

Talk up the good side, i say.

Positive reinforcent![/quote]

I have. I am saved.

How about you?

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I would reconsider my position on this Emu, since if you don’t believe in Hell, you are in effect calling Jesus a liar.

[b][i]

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. ?And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 8: 8-9
[/b][/i]

In these verses – and there are many many others that you could look at, Jesus is speaking and equates “everlasting fire” with “hell fire.”

Everlasting = forever!

Therefore, you must rethink your false beliefs, or just come out and call Jesus a liar.

Can’t have it both ways…

Also look at: Luke 16: 19-21. This is also a teaching directly from the lips of the Lord on Hell.

Steveo,

Everlasting fire as in it will last for all eternity, as in your soul will be burned out of existence for all eternity.

I’m starting to question the way you go about preaching the Bible. Because I have a different belief on a topic in the Bible, you automatically say that I am calling Jesus a liar?

I could say the same thing about you.

Jesus also said that only people who believe in him will have the gift of eternal life.

HOW COULD THIS BE IF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT SAVED HAVE AN ETERNAL LIFE IN HELL?

Why are you putting words in my mouth?
[/quote]

Be careful…

Are you saying that you equate “everlasting fire” in hell for eternity (Revelation says “forever and ever…”) with “eternal life” for believers?

That would mean that you are saying that “damnation” is equal to “salvation.” This is impossible.

Eternal life means just what it says – eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.

Eternal Hell fire means eternal damnation. While the soul lives on, it does so in “outer darkness” and burning fire.

The fact that the soul doesn’t die is a given, but the Word is clear on the two destinies of people. Look in Daniel 12 at the end of the chapter. There is a ressurection to life (eternal life) and a ressurection to damnation (eternal Hell fire). Revelation calls eternity in Hell – “the second death.” It is called this because this is a spiritual death following physical death.

In short:

Believers: Physically Die – Spiritually live.

Everyone else: Physically Die – and Spiritual Death.

Please read the Bible carefully and study this out for yourself.

[quote]Dr. Stig wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

If, as you say, the Catholic faith, is the “true” Christianity, surely its teachings would be in the Bible. Right?

I don’t remember saying that, probably because I didn’t. Like I said before you are obviously some kid who sits at his PC with his dick out wanking over all the disruption you cause on forums like this.

Personally I buzz off it, I think you are so sad its amusing. I would not be surprised if you are just an alter ago of Zeb as you use the same format for posting and replies and the bold thing.

If anyones’s being unchristian bud its you, because you are judging everyone, and as the bible says, yadadada that’s God’s job.

[/quote]

I am far from a kid, but that is another matter.

Hey, look who’s judging whom? Seems to me that you need a good dose of following what you tell others.

Anyway, you are correct that God is the judge and He will judge us all according to His Word. .

How will YOU turn out on judgment day?

[quote]Dr. Stig wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

If, as you say, the Catholic faith, is the “true” Christianity, surely its teachings would be in the Bible. Right?

I don’t remember saying that, probably because I didn’t. Like I said before you are obviously some kid who sits at his PC with his dick out wanking over all the disruption you cause on forums like this.

Personally I buzz off it, I think you are so sad its amusing. I would not be surprised if you are just an alter ago of Zeb as you use the same format for posting and replies and the bold thing.

If anyones’s being unchristian bud its you, because you are judging everyone, and as the bible says, yadadada that’s God’s job.

[/quote]

Stig – where are the verses from the Bible that I had asked you for. As a Catholic, surely you can defend Catholic doctrine with God’s Word, can’t you?

I mean, Catholics do follow God’s Word, right? Or not…???

[quote]Dr. Stig wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Dr. Stig wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

If, as you say, the Catholic faith, is the “true” Christianity, surely its teachings would be in the Bible. Right?

I don’t remember saying that, probably because I didn’t. Like I said before you are obviously some kid who sits at his PC with his dick out wanking over all the disruption you cause on forums like this.

More insults, put downs and personal attacks from stig…

Personally I buzz off it, I think you are so sad its amusing. I would not be surprised if you are just an alter ago of Zeb as you use the same format for posting and replies and the bold thing.

Another paragraph of personal put downs. And more hate, but nothing else.

Stig, as I asked in my first post on this thread. What does the other side have to offer in place of this?

If you as a Catholic Christian have a better way then please save your insults they accomplish nothing, and put forth your own ideas.

Thank you.

Ok, Ok, I’m catholic by default. I just like crossing swords with people like you, its not internet hatred/hardmanship because I tend to do this in real life too. Its just inconvenient because we are in different countries.

But then again in ‘real life’ if I was sounding off to you and SteveO I think there would be a good case of bystander apathy than the fiery rhetoric you have displayed using your keyboard.

I bid you good day, or whatever it is you SUV driving sinners get up to in the Colonies.

:wink:

[/quote]

Hey, no harm done! We should be able (as adults) to have a good debate even if we don’t disagree. There is no reason to be disagreeable.

Anyway, thanks for your comments and I really would like to discuss Catholic doctrine, so you can perhaps see where me (and Zeb – NOT THE SAME PERSON!) are comming from.

Take care…

[quote]hspder wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
So because billions of people believe in a tradition, that makes it right?

Of course not. I’m not a Catholic either. Do not distort my words. My complaint here is simply the lack of respect I’m seeing for other people’s beliefs. One does not have to agree in order to respect.

[/quote]

Good comment hspder!

[quote]ephrem wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

It won’t be irrelevant to you one split-second after you die. Then it will be all too relevant, but all too late…

…if the afterlife means spending eternity with the like of you Steve, i’ll take oblivion every time…[/quote]

You say that now…