Post Here To Accept Jesus Christ

[ZEB]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

That is only your belief . You can choose to believe this, but you must realize that unlike Christian belief which is based upon the Word of God, your belief here is made up out of your head.

…now this is unbelievable ((-: Belief is belief, no matter how you label it, Steve. That you can write this with a straight face is pretty impressive…

What are you talking about? My comment here was that the poster was expressing his beliefs, but, unlike Christian belief which is grounded upon God’s Word (The Bible), his belief was just from his head. In other words, where is the authority in his belief. I can believe anything I choose, but when eternity is at stake, I would make certain that I am grounded in something more sure than – “well I just believe it because I do.”

What is so hard to comprehend? I am puzzled by your seeming surprise at my comments.

…this is a symptom of your attitude Steve, the inability to comprehend a very straightforward thing. You deny the veracity of someone else’s belief by saying it’s not founded in authority, whilst your belief ?s. Yet you support this idea with just another belief, e.i. the authority of the bible. That is called ‘circular reasoning’, Steve…

[/quote]

And YOU deny that eating twinkies can build muscle…While the other guy thinks that eating twinkies will in fact build muscle.

Someone is right and someone is wrong!

[orion]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

So, then, we all cannot be lunatic. So then why isn’t it credible to you Harris?
[/quote]

A) Why can?t you all be insane? The answer would be because then insanity would be the norm and not really insanity anymore, but your belief system is completely gaga.

B) You think that it is harder to believe weird stuff if a lot of people believe it, though it is obviously easier to beleive strange things if other people share your beliefs.

It is a evolutionary psychological adaptation, sometimes it is better to follow the herd than to be right.

This effct can and has been demonstrated.

It is very easy to lump all believers together and dismiss them as being insane, or part of the fringe of society. However, I know many many believers who hold very powerful corporate, legal, and medical, and even government positions right here in New York City. In other words, not only are some believers “normal,” but they are also in postions that other would envy to have.

Yup, frightening, isn?t it…

However, I hope most of them lie, because according to Seneca:

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

[ephrem]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
What is so hard to comprehend? I am puzzled by your seeming surprise at my comments.

…this is a symptom of your attitude Steve, the inability to comprehend a very straightforward thing. You deny the veracity of someone else’s belief by saying it’s not founded in authority, whilst your belief ?s. Yet you support this idea with just another belief, e.i. the authority of the bible. That is called ‘circular reasoning’, Steve…

And YOU deny that eating twinkies can build muscle…While the other guy thinks that eating twinkies will in fact build muscle.

Someone is right and someone is wrong!

[/quote]

…not necessarily so, Zeb. This doesn’t have to be an either/or situation. It does require honesty, though. For a not-believer it is quite obvious that all beliefs are equal, whether you believe in the great FSM, pink unicorns, Allah or God/J.C., these beliefsystems are different in content but not in essence…

…as a believer you [general] accept something as true, having faith that it is in fact true WITHOUT knowing this for sure. A believer can deny another’s beliefsystem being true solely based on opinion, not fact. Beliefs have nothing to do with fact, but everything with hope and wishes…

…it continues to astound me, this apparent unwillingness to be honest about ones beliefs and simply say: these are my beliefs, they may not be true but i believe them to be regardless for they bring me happiness, peace and joy in life, and perhaps even in death…

…i don’t think anyone on this particular board will object to such a statement, or do you?

[harris447]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Why are you guys even arguing with these idiots?

They’re grown adults believe in fairy tales and magic.

Were it not for the fact that millions of other people share their delusions, they would be put in mental hospitals.

Harris,

For the record, are you saying that Christians who believe as I do in the United States of America, should be put into mental hospitals agains our will? Is that what you are saying?

Please explain, because I think you have lost whatever credibility you didn’t have in the first place…

Well, I’m pretty sure if there’s an arbiter of credibility on this board, it ain’t you, but…

My point is that if there were only ONE PERSON in the world who believed that there was this mystical, all-knowing, all-seeing being who created the universe but somehow found time to care about every single individual’s meals and hats.

This being then impregnated a woman–with magic–and that person had superpowers, like Spider-Man with sandals, and he died but CAME BACK TO LIFE and now watches everything we do.

If just one person believed that…we’d call him a lunatic.

But, since A LOT of people believe it, it’s called reigion.

That’s my point.

Actually, just about every civilization has worshipped something…Something other than beer, drugs and women.

There is a built in need to worship the almighty.

[/quote]

There is no “built-in need” to worship anything.

There is a subconscious fear of the dark and of death that people take advantage of, claiming that there’s a god.

[874445435]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

You need to be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved![/quote]

You need help mate. How do you know what I believe in ? I take this as a serious insult that you think you know about me when its only you who has placed his beliefs on a bigscreen tv for everyone to judge. I suggest you go away and learn some manners and humility, you are very ignorant. As it happens I am a Catholic (as far as you are concerned that means I am religous) and look right down at the manner in which you conduct your religous affairs.

[mazilla]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
tme wrote:
mazilla wrote:
.

Easily.

So why are you posting to it?[/quote]

[mazilla]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Dr. Stig wrote:
I am of limited intelligence compared to some of the posters on this thread (and forum) however, I do understand Cynicism was the first religion. In fact the early Christians were followers of the Cynic philosophy. The basis of this is of course a questioning faith with reason (and logic).

Therefore assuming everyone should think in the same way as you and form a blueprint of your beliefs (Steveo) is not really being Christian but more following some kind of personalised adaptation that suits your own needs.

There are probably many religous, spiritual people looking at this thread who would be dismayed at your approach to religous forced ingestion.

Just a though. Religion is foremost a personal experience and not a tool for placing yourself on an imaginary pedestal above those who do not (outwardly) seem to agree with your approach.

I will try to correct you gently here. Thanks first of all for the post and the opportunity to address your statements.

The first monotheistic religion was Judaism. Christianity is the fulfillment of Biblical Judaism insofar as the Hebrew Scriptures speak about and predict the coming of the Messiah (Isa. 53; Daniel 9; Psalm 2; Psalm 110, and many many others…).

The model for and the behavior of the early Christians paralleled the Jewish custom of students (Talmudim) following their chosen rabbi (The Master or Teacher). The objective of the Talmudim (the diciples of the rabbi) was not only to learn what the rabbi knew, but also to become just like the rabbi in their daily lives .

Therefore, the basis of your argument is false as well as your conclusion. The objective of the Talmudim is exactly in line with the objective for the command to believe (be saved) and thus become more and more like our Rabbi (The Great Teacher – Jesus Christ!).

That is the model from which Christianity sprung. Judaism is the root – Christianity is the branches. This is not only Biblical, but Historical fact.

Now, how am I placing “myself on a pedestal?” I have admitted that I am simply a sinner, saved by the grace of God and I am telling others how to be saved too, according to the Bible. How is that me placing myself above anyone? I am proclaiming that God is above all and that Jesus Christ is God and thus He must be worshipped as such. God is on His throne, not me or anyone. Actually, when you think about it, those who reject the God of the Bible, by rejecting God’s offer of salvation, is placing themselves on their own pedestil by asserting that they know a better way or a different way than God says. God commands everyone to believe. So if you ignore and reject that command, aren’t you placing yourself above Him?

You need to be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved![/quote]

[Lorisco]

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
harris447 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Why are you guys even arguing with these idiots?

They’re grown adults believe in fairy tales and magic.

Were it not for the fact that millions of other people share their delusions, they would be put in mental hospitals.

Harris,

For the record, are you saying that Christians who believe as I do in the United States of America, should be put into mental hospitals agains our will? Is that what you are saying?

Please explain, because I think you have lost whatever credibility you didn’t have in the first place…

Well, I’m pretty sure if there’s an arbiter of credibility on this board, it ain’t you, but…

My point is that if there were only ONE PERSON in the world who believed that there was this mystical, all-knowing, all-seeing being who created the universe but somehow found time to care about every single individual’s meals and hats.

This being then impregnated a woman–with magic–and that person had superpowers, like Spider-Man with sandals, and he died but CAME BACK TO LIFE and now watches everything we do.

If just one person believed that…we’d call him a lunatic.

But, since A LOT of people believe it, it’s called reigion.

That’s my point.

Actually, just about every civilization has worshipped something…Something other than beer, drugs and women.

There is a built in need to worship the almighty.

There is no “built-in need” to worship anything.

There is a subconscious fear of the dark and of death that people take advantage of, claiming that there’s a god.
[/quote]

It would be very interesting to see if you say the same thing on your deathbed?

[haney]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo, JPBear,

An honest question for the both of you…

In the past, there have been things that have been done that were horrendous and mistaken. A good example that comes to mind is witch trials and burnings.

These things actually happened.

They were done by people who believed they were doing God’s work. They believed in Christianity and they thought they were fighting an evil, in the name of God no less.
[/quote]
I think the problem most people have when they bring these issues up is how do you seperate the religion from the people who follow.

No where in the NT are such action consider Godly. So how is it “God’s people” allowed those things to happen, and even believed they were justified? It is my opinion that the majority were simply followers, and there was a leader that pushed the issue. Similiar to Hitler convincing a whole nation that the extermination of the Jews was a good thing.

There is no argument about it, these things happened.

Now, to be honest, I would think that you would also judge witch burnings as “evil” would you not? Surely, killing people because they are suspected of witchcraft, through painful and horrible means, qualifies as an “evil”?

I won’t judge them, but I will say I don’t find much of God in it.

So, as fundamentalists, I pose this question to you. How can you claim that a religion is the perfect unadulterated word of God if such mistakes and such “evil” can be conducted by honest believers in honest good faith?

Honest believers stopped listening to God, and started listening to people who said they were following God.

Be clear, I am not arguing against religion, or against God, but that the writings of man are an interpreted work and hence obviously contain flaws. These flaws have been the cause of abuse, errors and outright evil from time to time, all conducted in the name of God.

Honestly, when you revere the Bible itself as the “Word of God”, when it was in fact written by men, you commit idolatry, raising the Bible to the level of God… and this is something you are expressly not allowed to do.

I think there is a certain amount of truth to that view, but I also think there is a certain amount of misunderstaning in it also. I know from my fundy days I never thought the Bible was God or equal to God. It was more or less an extension of God. A piece which is used to give me instructions for life.

[quote]
The Bible contains a lot of important and wonderful information and guidance for us to follow, but it should not be raised to a level of reverence on it’s own right, because when that is done it can become a tool of evil.

I see idolatry and aggrandizement in these threads… and I make the effort to warn you of the error of your ways, just like a Christian should.

Isn’t that interesting…

[Edit: It’s mother’s day, and I have to go spend time with family, so I’m done blathering for while.][/quote]

I hope you had a good day.

[hspder]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
That is only your belief . You can choose to believe this, but you must realize that unlike Christian belief which is based upon the Word of God, your belief here is made up out of your head.[/quote]

I take it very personally when people insult mine or other people’s intelligence. I was trying to be as polite and diplomatic about all of this, but, seriously, I’m starting to see you do not understand how to return it in kind.

So, what you’re saying is that Science is all made up out of our head, while the Word of God is not. That is indeed your prerogative.

I’ll make one more attempt at diplomacy, and try to make my point as kindly as possible.

Let’s, for a moment, completely forget about the theory of Evolution ? in fact about all scientific evidence, that shows, for example, contrary to what the Bible says, the lifespan of humans has been only increasing since we came about 200,000 years ago – so, I really don’t think Noah got to live to be 600 years old, and much less that he was the 10th generation after Adam (that would put him about a couple of centuries after the first Man, which means 190,800 years ago, at which point we all lived in the savanna and clearly were not able to build ships). For the sake of the argument, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt there, take everything in Genesis as a non-literal allegory, etc., and get back to basics and things we can observe with our own eyes, today.

As I said, let’s forget about all of that, and, for a moment, accept the Bible as the Word of God and hence the Truth.

So tell me:

Considering that the Word of God says God is all-knowing, all living creatures were created by God, and the story of Noah according to chapters 5-9 of the book of Genesis (where “every living thing of all flesh” was saved):

How the Word of God – according to you, the TRUTH – explains that several animal species (“living thing things of all flesh”) get extinct every single day? Is it that God changes his mind? Is it that God realizes that a mistake was made creating them? How can you consolidate that with the belief that God is all-knowing? What is the point of creating millions of species, having them survive for millions of years, save every species during the Flood, to later destroy them, one by one?

Is there a prophecy hidden somewhere (maybe in the books of the Bible the mysteriously vanished over the course of History, and even more mysteriously nobody seems to care about) I’m missing that says that God’s plan includes killing off species by the handful every day, for absolutely no apparent reason, and in clear contrast with every single thing said in Genesis?

Basically, where does it provide an explanation for that in the Bible?

[hspder]

Haney,

[quote]haney wrote:
I think there is a certain amount of truth to that view, but I also think there is a certain amount of misunderstaning in it also. I know from my fundy days I never thought the Bible was God or equal to God. It was more or less an extension of God. A piece which is used to give me instructions for life.[/quote]

I just wanted to say I believe your post was amazing. I may not share your beliefs, but the way you responded to vroom showed intelligence, kindness and wisdom, and is a great breath of fresh air in this thread.

You reminded all of us that the problem is not Christianity, the problem is stupidity.

Thank you.

[JPBear]

[quote]hspder wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
That is only your belief . You can choose to believe this, but you must realize that unlike Christian belief which is based upon the Word of God, your belief here is made up out of your head.

I take it very personally when people insult mine or other people’s intelligence. I was trying to be as polite and diplomatic about all of this, but, seriously, I’m starting to see you do not understand how to return it in kind.

So, what you’re saying is that Science is all made up out of our head, while the Word of God is not. That is indeed your prerogative.

I’ll make one more attempt at diplomacy, and try to make my point as kindly as possible.

Let’s, for a moment, completely forget about the theory of Evolution ? in fact about all scientific evidence, that shows, for example, contrary to what the Bible says, the lifespan of humans has been only increasing since we came about 200,000 years ago – so, I really don’t think Noah got to live to be 600 years old, and much less that he was the 10th generation after Adam (that would put him about a couple of centuries after the first Man, which means 190,800 years ago, at which point we all lived in the savanna and clearly were not able to build ships). For the sake of the argument, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt there, take everything in Genesis as a non-literal allegory, etc., and get back to basics and things we can observe with our own eyes, today.

As I said, let’s forget about all of that, and, for a moment, accept the Bible as the Word of God and hence the Truth.

So tell me:

Considering that the Word of God says God is all-knowing, all living creatures were created by God, and the story of Noah according to chapters 5-9 of the book of Genesis (where “every living thing of all flesh” was saved):

How the Word of God – according to you, the TRUTH – explains that several animal species (“living thing things of all flesh”) get extinct every single day? Is it that God changes his mind? Is it that God realizes that a mistake was made creating them? How can you consolidate that with the belief that God is all-knowing? What is the point of creating millions of species, having them survive for millions of years, save every species during the Flood, to later destroy them, one by one?

Is there a prophecy hidden somewhere (maybe in the books of the Bible the mysteriously vanished over the course of History, and even more mysteriously nobody seems to care about) I’m missing that says that God’s plan includes killing off species by the handful every day, for absolutely no apparent reason, and in clear contrast with every single thing said in Genesis?

Basically, where does it provide an explanation for that in the Bible?

[/quote]

???

Please give me the verse you are referring to. The closest I could find was where God said He would never again destroy every living thing. Notice He did not say “any living thing”.

One day the entire earth will be redeemed. That is where the redeemed will spend eternity, on a perfected physical earth (contrary to the popular belief that it will be purely a spiritual realm). It is only at that time that there will be no more sin on earth and hence, no more death or destruction. I am so excited to go there. I can’t wait to leave this world and go home to be with God.

[haney]

[quote]hspder wrote:
Haney,

haney wrote:
I think there is a certain amount of truth to that view, but I also think there is a certain amount of misunderstaning in it also. I know from my fundy days I never thought the Bible was God or equal to God. It was more or less an extension of God. A piece which is used to give me instructions for life.

I just wanted to say I believe your post was amazing. I may not share your beliefs, but the way you responded to vroom showed intelligence, kindness and wisdom, and is a great breath of fresh air in this thread.

You reminded all of us that the problem is not Christianity, the problem is stupidity.

Thank you.[/quote]

Thanks!

[hspder]

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Please give me the verse you are referring to. The closest I could find was where God said He would never again destroy every living thing. Notice He did not say “any living thing”.[/quote]

I get that. That’s not what I’m asking; what I’m asking is what is the point of an all-knowing God creating billions of non-sentient species and then destroying a few of them, ONE by ONE?

I mean, it’s not like those specific species are the only ones misbehaving and hence need to be smitten (first)…

[JPBear]

[quote]hspder wrote:

I get that. That’s not what I’m asking; what I’m asking is what is the point of an all-knowing God creating billions of non-sentient species and then destroying a few of them, ONE by ONE?

I mean, it’s not like those specific species are the only ones misbehaving and hence need to be smitten (first)…
[/quote]

Okay, maybe this will help. All of the destruction death, disease and extinction you see around you? That is the result of man and his sin. That is not God?s fault or his will. God wanted us to live sinless lives in paradise, but we have all chosen to disobey. The wages of sin is death.

So why hasn’t he done anything about it you ask? He has and he will. He sent us His Son so that we can be forgiven. He will one day judge all men and will hand out justice for all we have done. He will one day restore all of creation, and that includes the animals.

You are right in saying that nature has been affected. The Bible says that all of nature groans and cries out for God’s righteous judgement to come.

[harris447]

[quote]JPBear wrote:
hspder wrote:

I get that. That’s not what I’m asking; what I’m asking is what is the point of an all-knowing God creating billions of non-sentient species and then destroying a few of them, ONE by ONE?

I mean, it’s not like those specific species are the only ones misbehaving and hence need to be smitten (first)…

Okay, maybe this will help. All of the destruction death, disease and extinction you see around you? That is the result of man and his sin. That is not God?s fault or his will. God wanted us to live sinless lives in paradise, but we have all chosen to disobey. The wages of sin is death.

So why hasn’t he done anything about it you ask? He has and he will. He sent us His Son so that we can be forgiven. He will one day judge all men and will hand out justice for all we have done. He will one day restore all of creation, and that includes the animals.

You are right in saying that nature has been affected. The Bible says that all of nature groans and cries out for God’s righteous judgement to come.
[/quote]

I mean this nicely, but: you are crazy as a shithouse rat.

[hspder]

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Okay, maybe this will help. All of the destruction death, disease and extinction you see around you? That is the result of man and his sin. That is not God?s fault or his will. God wanted us to live sinless lives in paradise, but we have all chosen to disobey. The wages of sin is death.
[…]
You are right in saying that nature has been affected. The Bible says that all of nature groans and cries out for God’s righteous judgement to come.
[/quote]

So, the extinct species are just “collateral damage”?

Even if I could buy the premise that an all-seeing, all-knowing being would be that flippant towards humans due to us having made the wrong choices, how could the extinction of millions of completely innocent animals, who not only don’t have the ability to make choices, but if they had it they are not guilty of ours, serve any purpose?

Remind me how is that just?

What would you think of a human parent that started randomly killing animals because his/her child ran away from home?

Would you blame it on the child?

No, you’d probably label the parent as a brutal psychopath.

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one making ridiculous claims… Which is the point I wanted to prove all along: your explanation is definitely no less ridiculous than mine.

[JPBear]

[quote]hspder wrote:

So, the extinct species are just “collateral damage”?

Even if I could buy the premise that an all-seeing, all-knowing being would be that flippant towards humans due to us having made the wrong choices, how could the extinction of millions of completely innocent animals, who not only don’t have the ability to make choices, but if they had it they are not guilty of ours, serve any purpose?

Remind me how is that just?

What would you think of a human parent that started randomly killing animals because his/her child ran away from home?

Would you blame it on the child?

No, you’d probably label the parent as a brutal psychopath.
[/quote]

You missed my point. God is not doing it, we are. One day there will be justice and all things will be restored. God gave us this earth to do what we want with it. We have chosen to destroy it.

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one making ridiculous claims… Which is the point I wanted to prove all along: your explanation is definitely no less ridiculous than mine.

I can agree with this. Both of our points of view appear foolish. However, the Bible gives an explanation for why my point of view appears foolish. It is so that the lofty minded will remain blind to it.

[ZEB]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
ZEB wrote:
What is so hard to comprehend? I am puzzled by your seeming surprise at my comments.

…this is a symptom of your attitude Steve, the inability to comprehend a very straightforward thing. You deny the veracity of someone else’s belief by saying it’s not founded in authority, whilst your belief ?s. Yet you support this idea with just another belief, e.i. the authority of the bible. That is called ‘circular reasoning’, Steve…

And YOU deny that eating twinkies can build muscle…While the other guy thinks that eating twinkies will in fact build muscle.

Someone is right and someone is wrong!

…not necessarily so, Zeb. This doesn’t have to be an either/or situation. It does require honesty, though. For a not-believer it is quite obvious that all beliefs are equal, whether you believe in the great FSM, pink unicorns, Allah or God/J.C., these beliefsystems are different in content but not in essence…

…as a believer you [general] accept something as true, having faith that it is in fact true WITHOUT knowing this for sure. A believer can deny another’s beliefsystem being true solely based on opinion, not fact. Beliefs have nothing to do with fact, but everything with hope and wishes…

…it continues to astound me, this apparent unwillingness to be honest about ones beliefs and simply say: these are my beliefs, they may not be true but i believe them to be regardless for they bring me happiness, peace and joy in life, and perhaps even in death…

…i don’t think anyone on this particular board will object to such a statement, or do you?

[/quote]

But…if there IS a God and you DON’T believe that there is a God. You are wrong, make no mistake about it!

[ZEB]

[quote]harris447 wrote:

There is no “built-in need” to worship anything.

There is a subconscious fear of the dark and of death that people take advantage of, claiming that there’s a god.
[/quote]

That doesn’t explain why ancient tribes worshipped certain “Gods.” No one was trying to take advantage of anyone.

They instinctively knew that some great force put them where there were. And also created the elements ect. I really think that we are in some way programmed to believe.

So much so that I think NOT believing is actually more difficult than believing.