I’ve got several copies - chapter 23 is pretty good 
1 Like
I’ve heard that too …but that was from you as well !! 
1 Like
Yes, Chapter 23 is one of the best in the book.
2 Likes
Hello Dr. D, Mark, and all!
I’ve been following Dr. D’s websites since Classic X. I’m glad you’re still plugging away!
This is an interesting topic. I’ve tried the 30-10-30 about a year ago and stopped using it after a few weeks. I’ve now again started it again and will keep on it for at least a month to see if I see any positive changes. I did 7 exercises in my yesterdays workout. Six were 30-10-30 and one was regular set.
I plan to do one (30-10-30) workout a week and one (regular) NTF workout 1x a week. It’s intense to say the least.
I’m curious, Mark, how have your results been with your new workouts?
Thank you,
Ron
Hi Ron,
I can give you some idea of my success with 30-10-30.
During the virus lockdown I didn’t train for over 20 weeks and sometimes had trouble getting the food I wanted so lost a fair amount of muscle (14 lbs) and gained about 12 lbs of fat. When the gyms re-opened I used 30-10-30 and re-gained 11 3/4 lbs of muscle and lost 4 1/2 lbs of fat in 28 days. In terms of size I gained 1 3/4" on my chest, an average of 3/4" on my arms, an average of 1 3/4" on each calf and an average of 1 1/2" on my thighs in this same period. My waist pretty much remained the same the entire time although my abs were visibly tighter.
The diet is equally as important as the training.
NB: I was specifically on a muscle gain plan during this 28 days
1 Like
Hi Ron,
I did the Pre -exhaust 30-10-30 routine (combination machine/free weights) routine from the book earlier in the year.
I did not follow the dietary guidelines as I was at a range of bodyfat I was okay with. Neither did I take photos/measurements (my goal was simply to try something different and see where it took me).
Overall I noticed improvement to my upper thighs, but not to my upper body. I did however see merit in both 30-10-30 and negative emphasised training of this nature, and decided that I would return to it , but this time having experienced it previously I could use this information to create a routine/routines designed specifically for me .
I began the new programme just over a week ago.
It addresses some of the problems I had with the previous one (it is important to note that these problems are “specific” to me , and to another person won’t be ) .
Two workouts in , I’m happy with how it is going, but i have already spotted/experienced a potential problem with the routine/s (I have an A and B routine) .
I fully expected this to occur and I will make a slight adjustment to the programme if necessary.
I will be more than happy to go over what I felt about the original routine was not ideal for me , and how my new routine addresses this.
Mark
Jeff60,what exactly did you do for your calves to gain 1 1/2"
Hi too_old,
In 6 workouts over 28 days I directly trained my calfs twice although they would also have received some fairly direct stimulation from leg curls which I did three times (not in the same workouts where I trained calfs). Both times I did calfs I one set of Flutter Reps to failure.
To support this re-gain I ate 50 - 60% carbs, 20 - 25% fats and 10 - 15% proteins every day, slept for between 9 and 10 hours every day and drank at least a gallon of ice cold water every day.
I think it’s important to emphasise I was re-gaining lost muscle.
Regards,
Mark I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts about the program. I’m asking because I read Killing Fat over the weekend and I’m at a point as well where I’m good with my body fat and I’m looking to add muscle mass and ultimately body weight. I also have a question. I know in the killing fat book it has people doing a 30-10-30 routine twice a week but the article here on tnation regarding 30-10-30 days to do it once per week. Any thoughts as to the difference.
Dr. Darden if you read this I would love to hear your insights as well.
JT,
Both programmes are fine.
Personally i would start with the twice a week routine , and if necessary then reduce frequency.
For someone like myself who has trained for decades, and is likely to be very close to my genetic potential, the chances of any “generic” programme yielding significant results (unless one is regaining lost muscle tissue) are close to zero.
But what you can do (as I have done) is to follow the routine, assess the pros and cons , and then create a new programme specific to myself.
In regards the changes I made.
Firstly I dropped the Pre- exhaust as I found that the overall time under load was excessive for me . This became amplified on the 2nd exercise towards the latter part of the regular reps and especially the 2nd negative, when i was breathing like a steam train, trying to push close to failure on my regular reps and then had to face a 30 second negative.As the workout progressed you also faced that whole body cumulative fatigue as well. For someone training by themselves I needed to reduce the variables I have to manage.
The routine in the book also had the number of exercises increasing from 6 at the start , building up to 10 during the last 2 weeks.
My new routine starts with 7 exercises and has the flexibility for me to reduce the overall volume slightly as I get stronger to facilitate recovery and over compensation.
My selected exercises (contained in an A and B workout) are based around my individual requirements, with the flexibility to make changes in both the exercises and the negative protocols if i think it is required.
The best advice to you is go ahead, be mentally prepared to dig deep, eat plenty of carbs, stay hydrated , and to make sure you get plenty of sleep and rest.
Mark
I appreciate the guidance mark. Just a bit of context I’m 32 years old, weighing about 183 with a bodyfat percentage that is around 12-14% is what I would guess. I also stand about 5’11" tall. I’ve always struggled with gaining weight and muscle due to several reasons but I also come from going to the gym 4 days a week training with 5/3/1, so mentally its tough for me to only go twice a week and maybe later on only 1 time a week. I do understand the science and where Dr. Darden is coming from which is why I am starting HIT training. Your words and advice are very welcomed. I will take the progression from the Killing Fat book an start there. I’ve already bounced around with where to start and my only issue right now is that I don’t have the ability to do dips. Once my weights arrive for my home gym I will be able to, but will not have access to any machines.
jtbrown,
I’m pleased that you are listening to Mark. He’s on-target.
1 Like
JT,
you’re welcome.
Until you are able to do dips I personally would do a close grip bench press utilising 30-10-30 .
Thank you Mark and Dr Darden. Any suggestions as to calculating how many calories to eat when eating and training for muscle mass?
I will let Dr Darden get into more specifics, but being around 13 to 14 % bodyfat I would not want to add any more bodyfat.
So i would either keep calories around the same, or slightly reduce them (maybe start the Killing Fat diet ) until you get to around 10% .
Then slowly begin adding calories.
Just my thoughts.
Hi Mark and Jeff,
Have you been seeing TUT increases and then increasing the weight? The time I used this method before - I went up in weight and stayed at the same 30-10-30 (approximately) but after about the 2nd week - I didn’t see any increase and in fact it became very taxing and might have gone down in TUT. So the 30-10-30 became mentally and physically laborious to do.
I’ve been doing HIT for a long time. Sometimes I will change things up and go to 3 sets/exercise (NTF full body) but always come back to the full body 1 set to failure.
I just need to find the right combination of making things work. I believe I’m mostly Fast twitch fiber type. I always used to do 5-8 reps/set but the last few years have brought it up to 12-15 reps. Sets usually last ~ 30-40 seconds max. So 30-10-30 is a LONG set! I will try this for 2-3 weeks but may need to tweak to 20-8-20…
Background: I’m 55 YO , 5’11" , 210 lbs. I competed years ago and won a state contest (19 yrs old) and 3rd in the next. I would like to get leaner and get muscle mass up…
Best regards-
1 Like
Hi Ron,
I also have predominately FT fibres so my version of 30-10-30 is tailored to that. I increase the weight when I can get my full target for each portion.
Hope that helps.
2 Likes
Hi CMJ,
If I completed 30-10-30 I would increase the resistance slightly .
Or if one of the 2nd or 3rd parts of the exercise exceeded the template (eg: 12 reps on stage 2, or 35 seconds on stage 3) I would slightly increase the weights.
As for adapting 30-10-30 for yourself , I cannot see anything wrong with that.
You are experienced and have a good idea what type of TUL/Rep range works best for you.
The key thing is you are still putting the emphasis on the negative, which your example of 20-8-20 does.
You could still on occasion throw in a set of 30-10-30 with the odd exercise or something similar .
As an advanced athlete, it is more important to utilise the principles behind 30-10-30 , rather than being tied to the numbers.
Regards
Mark
It is almost impossible to progress weight on 301030 when one is handling large loads. This is because the dynamics of the 10 sets will allow outroading (performance) to begin to sneak in. A little at first than eventually a lot. So much so that what appears to be increases in load or TUL is actually improvement in handling (aka gaming) the reps. This is why a trainee who is using large loads will quickly stagnate unless the performance/handling element is removed. This is best accomplished by 303030 where TUL is irrelevant and the only concern is load … which I GUARANTEE will go up every session. An alternative is Max Pyramid. We are not PL’s or OL’s.
1 Like
Can you further explain the concept of “outroading” (it sounds like a Hutchins term/observation ) and “gaming” and how it differs between 10 three second reps and 1 thirty second one (I am fully aware of the Arthur Jones term “inroad”).
Even if their are shortcomings in performing regular reps, then surely this would occur on pretty much any regular style set of repetitions ?
Plus with 30-10-30 the focus is on negative fatigue .
A 30-30-30 also has many problems such as the difficulty of maintaining set quality throughout 90 seconds (the 10 regular reps in the middle do to some extent provide a mental respite from the extremely slow movement pattern) without “expert” supervision. The fact that only a tiny percentage of people who would try this method have such supervision , highlights a potential shortcoming of this particular method.
But no single protocol or method is close to perfect.
30-10-30 alongside 30-30-30 and 10-10-10 are all variations of the same theme which is to provide a form of negative “emphasised” training.
You mention trainees using large loads quickly stagnating . Isn’t the reason that the overwelming majority of people using “large loads” is because they are at the upper end of their genetic potential and unless they start a particular programme at lower than their best loads they always quickly stagnate. Improvements in strength at that stage are with very few exceptions minor, and improvements in lean tissue even harder to come by.
I look forward to hearing your response as I’m not a scientist , and whilst I like to share my experiences, I also like to see ideas questioned ,challenged and debated, and in the process further my own knowledge/education.
Mark
1 Like