Once again you fail to comprehend my posts and go off half-cocked. There are thousands and thousands of men out there who have become habitual porn users, addicts if you will, and thousands of wives and girlfriends who notice that their husbands and boyfriends are addicted to porn. You hear about it all the time. Just because it’s a phenomenon that’s only been recently brought to public attention doesn’t mean it’s not an addiction. As for it being a physical addiction, it’s consumed with the eyes. We like to look at pretty things, men like to look at women, they arouse us. We like to see pictures of women, those pictures arouse us too, physically and mentally. Just looking at these pictures can be habit-forming. Couple the visual stimulation with the fact that porn addiction is more often than not coupled with masturbation as a release for the sexual arousal built up by the pornography viewing and you have a double whammy, and the reason a pornography addiction is so difficult to break, because it accompanies sexual release. What happens when a porn addict doesn’t have access to porn, let’s say he goes on vacation and doesn’t have access to the Internet. What does he do? He searches television stations for racy programs. He searches through newspapers, magazines, etc., anything that will give him some depiction of beautiful women. He feels frustrated until he finds something, anything. I speak from experience on this, so I know that porn addiction is real.
You’re correct in that I don’t really have an argument. I have RESPONSES TO ARGUMENTS. This whole thread started out in the porn stars thread in which maxxed began attacking porn. He was the only one, so I felt like I ought to jump in and help out by responding to pro-porn posters’ assertions. Just about everything I’ve posted here has been a response to someone elses arguments. Yes, I have read studies and meta-analyses and I’ve looked at their methodologies. They all have limitations, but those limitations will never ever be able to be overcome, so these studies are the best thing we have to study the effects of pornography on sex crimes. You also completely misread my passage on faith. Were you a participant or observer in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE STUDIES? No. But you read them. You took the researchers’ word that their write-up was an accurate summary of their study. You took it on faith. So did I. I also never claimed that these studies PROVED anything. They don’t and never will. But the studies I’ve seen show that porn consumption either correlates to an increased rate of sex crimes, or there is no correlation. In the absence of studies showing that porn consumption correlates to a decreased rate of sex crimes I ask, how could you defend porn? The only way to prove that pornography is correlated to or a cause of rape is to sanction a study in which women are actually subject to rape. Somehow, I don’t think that would fly.
No one’s arguing that rape is right or that anything justifies rape. Nor was this thread about rape. It was about porn, and the negative consequences of it. I don’t know what you were talking about when you said, “Its like drug addiction or alchahol [sic] addiction what a load of crap,” but I was talking about porn addiction. If you’d like to debate that go ahead, but calling it crap doesn’t cut it. Finally, no one has said anything about stopping crime, that can’t be done. As long as there’s free will, there’s crime. Over the past 50+ years the rate of crime has increased. What goes up must come down, so people are forever trying to find ways to reverse the trend of increasing crime. Tougher sentences are one of the major reasons behind the crime rate coming down over the past decade, largely to the fact that it keeps criminals who are likely to be repeat offenders off the streets. However, tougher sentences still don’t address the root causes of crime, which are myriad.
Wow. I must be weird or something. I saw porn as a teen and the only problem I had with it then was that the pages stuck together sometimes. Later when I got tapes I didn’t have that trouble. I haven’t commited any crimes or graduated to bestiality or any violent porn. I’m happily married with a couple of nice kids, one an adult and one nearly there. Neither have drug problems, any criminal problems…or any hangups about human sexuality. I guess we dodged a bullet, just like 90+% of the people exposed to porn. Just because somebody is a bit off you can’t blame porn. It’s just the tool they chose at the time, they’d have been just as fucked up without the porn.
One of the reasons I went off the way I did is because the entire thread along with many others on here are just flat out wrong. There is no correlation. Before anyone gets any ideas as to my knowledge on any topic regarding scientific studies my wife works at Johns Hopkins and consult regularly with the top researchers in many fields. I fortunately have pleasure of being able to learn from these people. The topic at a dinner gathering came up about these so called studies looking at correlation between rape and porn. As everyone there was reading these so called studies they were laughing their asses off as to the process with which they came to these completely false conclusions. Earlier someone said that crime is going to happen because of free will. Yes you have free will to commit crime or not to. If you do it you are an idiot. Hey when I was a kid I did a few things that are illegal and got in trouble. At that time I was an idiot, or a**hole or maybe even evil. Fortunatly I wasn’t so stupid as to commit a crime that would have really done major harm to others. Now back to porn. Porn only causes a problem if the person watching it is not right in the head. Most people who watch porn have no problems at all with anything. Why should the healthy individual who enjoy porn with no problems have to have anything changed for the very very few who cannot handle it? Another is my wife and I watch porn together. She enjoys probably more than I do. Yet her life is normal with normal respectful loving caring relationships with all around her. Listen if any of you out there have had any personal problems with porn don’t watch. Its like my comment about drugs and alchahol. Put the joint down, put the drink down. Be a responsible adult. Anyone that has been victimized by rape I feel horrible for what you have been through and what is needed is tougher punishment for rapists and a worldwide opinion that rape is wrong and NO MEANS NO. OH and to Paul Martin my point on addiction was right on the money and my calling it crap does cut it do not tell me it doesn’t. As for your comments about crime it will go down when we as a society no longer tolerate it. Michelle put it best earlier when she said no plea bargains no slaps on the wrist. Tough laws with tough punishment will stop crime. Freedom in our country does not mean total freedom. We do have to live with one another. If you rape or commit any crime it should no matter what race, religion, education background nothing should matter when it comes time for your sentence. I do not care if you are the smartest, white, rich man running a fortune 500 company with 5 kids to feed. If you for example rape you get life just like the poor, uneducated minority with no family who lives in a shelter. All crime gets equal punishment. Make the punishment extremetly severe and crime will drop in record numbers within less than 5 years.
If you’d like to enlighten us as to what these “top researchers” found so funny in these “so-called” studies, then by all means do so. I’ve already pointed out the shortcomings of studies that attempt to find correlation between porn and sex crimes. I’ve also said that the only way to prove a correlation is to commission studies in which women and children are exposed to rape and violence by men who have consumed porn. Would you want that to happen? Furthermore, your statement “Its [sic] like drug addiction or alchahol [sic] addiction what a load of crap,” still doesn’t cut it. What does this “it” refer to? Are we just supposed to somehow divine what “it” stands for? I’ve stated my reasoning for why porn addiction is similar to alcohol or tobacco or any other addiction, so if you would like to take issue with my reasoning, go ahead and take it apart. Any idiot can use four letter words, it doesn’t make for a good argument.
Most of these “studies” make some odd leaps of logic. Sure, lots of rapists and perverts use porn. Lots of them also drink, use drugs, and eat hamburgers too. You can’t show a causative effect just looking at it that way. Is there data out there that shows how many people are exposed to porn and of that large number of people just what the tiny percentage is that become rapists or perverts? I mean if you can just look for commonalities in backgrounds you could make a case that breast feeding or eating pickles leads to being a criminal too. How many guys rape women that aren’t very serious about porn use? I’ll bet there are a few of those too since they have rape in countries where porn is not only illegal but not generally available. Rape and perversion came way before graphic porn BTW. One thing you will find in common among criminals of all types is that they never take responsibility for their own behavior. If you always find a scapegoat you don’t have to make that tough realization that it you that is fucked up, and it’s you that needs to change. Porn is a convenient excuse and nothing more.
If you’d like to explain these “odd leaps of logic” then go ahead. When people look at porn their attitudes towards women, towards rape, towards sex crimes, change for the worse. It’s not rocket science, just common sense, backed up by studies. Pickles, hamburgers, breast feeding, drugs, and alcohol don’t have that same effect. Drugs and alcohol in combination with porn is another story altogether. Yes, rape probably does exist without porn, but the countries in which porn is hard to come by and rape exists are also countries in which the men have far more negative attitudes towards women than they do in the Western world. Porn has been shown to lead to negative attitudes towards women. Negative attitudes towards women lead to rape. Is that too much of a stretch? And how is it that these criminals become “fucked up?” Are they born that way? No. At some point in their lives they decide that committing crime is a rational deed that will somehow benefit them. Why do they think that? “Normal, well-adjusted” people don’t just all of a sudden say, “Hey, I think I’m going to commit a sex crime today.” Something in their lives led them to a path of thinking that somehow committing a sex crime was not wrong. If you think porn is just an excuse, then how would you explain the thought patterns and attitudes that lead to the commission of sex crimes? In my opinion, porn is a major factor, not the only one, but a major factor. Poor parenting, physical and/or sexual abuse, drug use, permissive sexual attitudes, etc. are all factors as well. Or would you consider those to be merely excuses?
Seriously Paul Martin we are all free to our opinions but you are obviously a liberal. Why are you searching for reasons? It is still just a matter of people not taking responsibility for themselves. Sorry if you don’t like it but porn addiction is B.S. So addiction in general. You obviously feel that things like porn, alchahol or drug addiction just as examples are some how real. They aren’t if you want to stop you can and especially in today’s world to not be aware of the potential dangers of drugs for example would just make that person a stupid idiot. Nothing else no fancy studies needed there. Porn addiction what a joke and porn causing rape even more of a joke.
How exactly am I a liberal? Is it because I’m against porn, contraception, abortion, extramarital sex, etc.? Is it because I’m against gun control? Is it because I distrust big government? Or is it because you couldn’t think of a better insult? I’m about as right-wing as they come. Maybe you’re not aware, but most people who are against porn are conservative, at least among Republicans. It’s people like you who have turned the Republican party from a party of solid moral principles to the wishy-washy, anything goes, Big Tent joke it is today. I’m sorry that you’re not capable of complex thought, but the world really isn’t as cut and dry as you would like it to be. Yes, people today don’t take responsibility for their actions; they’re always trying to rationalize their behavior, and that includes pornography as well. Rather than admitting that the pornography they buy supports an industry that uses people as sex objects and casts them away once they’re no longer useful, they try to rationalize their behavior and the destructiveness of porn because they like to look at it. What kind of values do porn movies offer? Nothing good. Do porn movies show the consequences of promiscuous sex? Do the characters ever get AIDS or other STDs? Do they have to deal with pregnancies or abortions? Do they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions? No. It’s just promotion for the contraceptive mentality that pervades society today. You wanna fuck her but don’t want to be responsible if she gets pregnant? Just use a condom. The condom breaks and she gets pregnant? No, problem, just have an abortion. You certainly can’t be bothered by something as unimportant as a child, you just wanted to get some pussy. That’s the message our society preaches, is it any wonder that that’s what people do? As for addiction being BS, think of something you really, really love. Now give it up COMPLETELY for a month. We’ll see what’s BS and what’s not.
I agree with Savannah porn rules!! Lighten up everybody rent out a porn jerk off or better yet have a T-Vixen (or T-man, whatever?) jerk you off and don’t worry about that .0001% that fucks everything up for everybody. Now lets start arguing about some really serious issues like: Which is better: doggie-style or 69?
I’m out of this one. I refuse to engage in further discussion with someone who puts blinders on when their beliefs are questioned. It’s pointless, exhausting, and, quite frankly, bores the hell out of me.
If porn actually was that powerful of a force there would be more rapes and stuff than there are. It is a business that is growing in leaps and bounds while sex crimes are basically stagnant to slightly declining. There have been viable studies that show a correlation in the DECREASE in sex crimes as countries become more permissive about porn. This has been shown to occur in several European countries and in Japan, and to a degree in the US. I personally think that some people are just broken toys. You have varying reasons for it but the facts are that you can put 10 people in the same environment and get 10 different results from it. We are individuals and we all don’t respond the same to just about any stimulus. Some people enjoy being spanked in a sexual manner, others find it repulsive, that has nothing to do with how they are raised. People with foot or leather fetishes all aren’t raised inthe same type households, nor are serial killers. Abberant behavior exists in any population of humans or animals regardless of the external forces at play, it’s a genetic variant for the most part. Oh, and I think that countries that have more “permissive” views on sex have less sex crimes…and that can be supported with facts. An open mind and little searching will show you.
Once again Paul you are off the mark on addiction. Loving something and being addicted are 2 completely different issues and if comparing them as some sort of equal helps you get through the day then good luck. Oh as to complex thought there is a difference between complex thought and useful thought. The world is cut and dry when people stop clouding the issues. That is how I feel about this particular topic. Why does porn or any entertainment always have to have a big moral message in it? Its entertainment. As for you being right wing well good but on this topic you were coming across as a wimpy need an emotional answer for everything liberal. Now you mention the whole moral issue and you are a member of the republican party that I don’t always agree with. As for morals I think they are important but I don’t need them shoved down my throat by others. See let me come back to porn. I watch porn honestly once a week on average sometimes more but I never treat women with disrespect. Actually ask any woman that has ever known me and they will tell you that I probably have more respect for women that just about anyone alive. I am against abortion by the way and I do not feel porn has anything to do with it. IF people are raised properly and educated properly then something like porn will not desensitize them. You know what if we actually were sitting face to face right now we would probably find alot of things that we agree about but this would be one of those things we definetly would not and that is fine. This topic is not the most important issue around nowadays anyway.
The study I’ve seen that’s always touted by pro-porn advocates is Kutschinsky’s (sp?) 1973 study in Denmark. Part of the reason sex crimes decreased was that after pornography was legalized the definition of sex crimes was narrowed to only include rapes, so of course the number of sex crimes decreased, even though rapes went up. Of course there will always be cultural differences to take into account too. I do see your point about variations within the population though, although the studies I’ve seen still point to a correlation between increased pornography consumption and negative attitudes towards women. Anyways, I lost interest in this thread last week and would really like it to die. WHACK! WHACK! Hope that does the trick.
I’ve read most of the posts here and I’m just going to throw in my two cents for good measure.
First, I don’t buy any argument that implies intrinsic, unqualified morality. What I mean is you can’t say porn is morally wrong without qualifying that somehow. To me that implies you believe it is somehow intrinsically wrong when that is probably based in some Puritan worldview, and to project this onto others is egocentric and wrong in that it categorically denies other peoples worldviews. Not to say that any particular worldview is “good” or “bad”, and certainly not to rag on anyone’s beliefs, that’s just how I feel.
Second, I’m going to give my argument about porn and it’s social ramifications; in a nutshell because my typing is terrible and I have a short attention span, so here goes:
Porn, or rock and roll, rap, pop literature and television for that matter, is just a convenient crutch for deviants, in more ways than one. Not to say that everyone who uses those things is a deviant. What I mean is that when someone commits a heinous act and uses the “Porn/Marilyn Manson(sp)/DOOM3/etc. made me do it!” excuse, or society implies something similar, it is only another way people avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
If someone rapes someone, it is because they have something “wrong” with them, some weakness of constitution or other aberration that a good ole ass whooping or better yet some self discipline would have fixed. Or a society bad ass enough to sanction them horribly should they infringe on someones rights so egreviously. So people need to not be so weak, suck it up, act responsibly, or else they shouldn’t be sharing our air.
I’d elaborate but I’m tired of typing and thinking and I need to hit the gym.
You dont see us crusading against Harlequin romance novels and soap operas. Although we could see they are as destructive. Yeah, but whos going to blame these little books and shows for creating and perpetuating unrealistic expectation of power and entitlement in women`s lives???
But its only fantasy` I hear you say. Indeed. So is porn. Thank you.
