PORN

" It’s the unlucky rapist that goes to jail ", Irvine Welsh, Marabou Stork Nightmares.

Got to stand by Michelle’s arguement. If you don’t personally like it, you don’t have to view it. If it’s evil effect on society is what you disagree with, well I think porn is only a small part to the cause of societies ills! A lot less than religion anyway.

Not saying we should disregard it, but where do you draw the line of censorship? Do you go back twenty years or so, or forty. Do we stop women from sunbathing topless? Do we follow a tradiational Islamic example and try and cover up all of female flesh? What about sex education? People are screaming in the UK that schools may start giving out oral contraceptives to girls as young as 13 without their parents knowledge. The arguement being that those children most likely to enage in underage sex are those most likely not to be able to talk to their folks about it.

If you start censoring porn, you leave the way open for more censorship and more restriction.

Michelle I’m really sorry to hear about what happened to you

Orbital - Thanks, I learned a long time ago to accept my past and use it to make myself better in the future. (Wow, that only took a few hundred hours of counseling to say! grin)

great post michelle, and i like porn. why can’t people take responsibility for their actions and not blame it on something or someone else?

This topic is the biggest load of crap. Look if you commit a crime it is your own fault. Not the fault of anyone else for any reason. No one takes any responsibility in this country anymore. I love porn alot and if anyone commits rape on anyone else I would convict them in a heart beat. Rape is bullshit and is committed by wimps, losers, pussies etc. They are men who have no manhood who are useless human beings. Infact why not skip the trial and bring them to me and I will shatter every bone in their body and make them eat their own penis for dinner. Then lets pass a law that says we don’t have to take care of people like this just because they are now disabled from the beating that they so very much deserve. Then these pieces of sh** will suffer the rest of their lives just like the victims. We need to get tough in this country but not by taking away a form of adult entertainment that so many honorable, healthy and respectful adults enjoy in their own homes. Sorry if at any point I went off topic slightly but this is my opinion and I am usually right.

To the no-name: I had never heard of the Masters and Johnson Institute until you brought it to my attention. A search on Altavista found, among other, this link. www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/carla.htm

It wouldn’t surprise me if Masters and Johnson were somehow related to Kinsey, which would make them the frauds, not me.

To Demo Dick: In my earlier post I had stated that the sources I was quoting were cut and pasted from the links you supposedly couldn’t read. If you failed to catch that then I wonder how much of the rest of the post you failed to read. Why exactly is the slippery slope argument erroneous, because you say it is? Or is it just too simple, it couldn’t possibly be right? Why don’t we explain things to those “laypeople” who perhaps aren’t up to your intellectual caliber. Here goes. We live in the world. There are lots of things in the world. These things are good in moderation. Drinking 1 gallon of water is good, drinking 1,000 gallons will kill you. Eating 3,000 calories will keep you alive and relatively healthy, 30,000 calories will make you fat. So far so good. You just have to make sure that you take things in moderation. It’s not as easy at it sounds, though. The human body, as we all know, is an incredibly adaptive organism, it’s constantly changing to react to external stimuli. If you’re thirsty, you drink water, and voila, your thirst is gone. If you’re hungry, you eat something, and voila, no more hunger. But suppose you drink a beer? You’ll be a little buzzed after the first beer, and even more so if you drink another one. But you’re feeling good, really good. So you drink another, and another, and another, until eventually you feel sick, throw up, etc. You stop drinking and sleep it off, and everything’s back to the way it was. Except for one thing. Your tolerance for alcohol has increased. The next week when you go out to drink it takes two beers to get the same effects as the one you had last time. And it keeps on increasing until you either a.) become sick of it and stop your intake, or b.) moderate your intake, or c.) become a drinker. It works the same way with weight training. You begin to lift some weights. You get stronger, bigger, leaner, etc. You figure, “If x is good, then 2x must be better, and 3x must be great.” So eventually you find yourself overtraining. You get injured, your joints hurt, your muscles feel tired. You take a little time off, recuperate, and go back at it. You’re stronger now than when you first started out. But maybe you still haven’t learned your lesson, and you find yourself overtraining again. You’ll continue this cycle until you a.) stop training altogether, or b.) figure out the right amount of training to do, or c.) keep going on in the same destructive cycle, all the while wondering what’s wrong. Let’s try using this with sexual arousal, for this argument’s sake, let’s say a guy who masturbates to photos of women. He picks up the SI swimsuit issue, loves the babes in it, and flips through all the pages while he’s jerking off. He ejaculates, puts the magazine away, and goes about his daily business. Eventually he’s going to get tired of the SI swimsuit issue, so he picks up a playboy, jerks off, gets off, and goes back to his daily grind. He gets used to it, maybe he’s wondering what’s between women’s legs, so he finds photos of women spreading their legs. Eventually he’s going to find photos of men having sex with women, imagining himself in the male pornstar’s place. And it goes on and on until he a.) becomes disgusted and stops altogether, or b.) moderates his consumption or the types of porn he consumes, or c.) becomes a porn addict and can’t control himself. But at the beginning he was just starting down the slippery slope. There’s also the fact that most porn addicts become addicted to porn as young teens. At that age people aren’t “normal, well-adjusted” people. They’re far more susceptible to succumb to addiction than are adults. A normal, well-adjusted ADULT might not have major problems with pornography (or they might, as all people are different), but a teenager will have problems. And what’s your hang-up with the “Religious Right”? Is your defense of pornography based solely on your hatred of religion? And what exactly do you mean when you say, “I’m familiar with a good portion of your cites, and none of them were exactly earth-shattering in the field of Sociology and human behavioral studies.” Are you implying that in order for a study to be correct it must be “earth-shattering?” Is that the measure by which you judge the validity of studies?

To char-dawg: In case you haven’t read the PDF document at http://www.enough.org/ justharmlessfun.pdf I’ll copy its section dealing with the 1986 and 1970 presidential commissions. I quote:

“The then-available evidence as to the influence of pornography was assessed by two major Commissions established in 1970 and 1986, respectively. In 1970, the Presidential Commission on Obscenity and Pornography concluded that there was insufficient evidence that exposure to explicit sexual materials played a significant role in the causation of delinquent or criminal behavior. In 1986, the Attorney General’s Commission on Pornography reached the opposite conclusion, advising that available pornography was in varying degrees harmful. In effect, however, the two Commissions were answering different questions.

Between 1970 and 1986 the nature of the available material changed substantially. In 1970, full frontal nudity was rarely found in newsstand magazines, since it could be successfully prosecuted as obscenity. One scholar noted that ‘in 1970, many of the experimental studies utilized sexually explicit materials from sex research institutes…because of the difficulty of obtaining materials from the local market.’ 19 Needless to say, by 1986 this was no longer a research constraint! By 1986, gynecological close-ups were available in newsstand magazines and hard-core material (‘penetration clearly visible’) was not difficult to find in adult video stores.

This complete change in the pornography ‘scene’ contributed to the change in findings between 1970 and 1986. Also, in 1970 only a limited amount of research had been carried out, much of it originated by the Commission itself, in comparison to the extensive studies completed since then. The 1970 Commission was criticized for failing to adequately address the impact of violent pornography and, as a result, much of the research over the next sixteen years went into this area.

By 1986, there was ‘some convergent validation’ 20 of the effects of violent pornography, including findings that sexually violent depictiong led to: Aggression against women under laboratory test conditions; Significant increases by college males in the acceptance of rape myths and of sexual violence towards women; Seeing the rape victim as more responsible for the assault, with perpetrators absolved and viewed less negatively; More aggressive sexual fantasies.

Even certain scholars who attributed such results primarily to the violence component noted that ‘a nonrapist population will evidence increased sexual arousal to media-presented images of rape…when the female victim shows signs of pleasure and arousal, the theme most commonly presented in aggressive pornography.’ 21

The Surgeon General’s Workshop on Pornography and Public Health met from June 22-24, 1986, and, like the 1986 Attorney General’s Commission, concluded that ‘pornography does stimulate attitudes and behavior that lead to gravely negative consequences for individuals and for society.’ 22

Subsequent Research

Subsequent work has indicated that detrimental effects are not limited to violent pornography. Since social science studies are rarely unanimous in their findings (there are exceptions to every trend), the most compelling academic evidence comes from reviewing a multitude of research studies and looking for patterns. Such work can take the form of ‘review studies’ (which review and compare the results of a number of original research studies) and ‘meta-analyses’ ( which aggregate the results of original research studies meeting stringent criteria of comparability). Some recent examples are: A review study in 1994, based on 81 original peer-reviewed research studies (35 using aggressive stimuli and 46 using non-aggressive stimuli), concluded that ‘the empirical research on the effects of aggressive pornography shows, with fairly impressive consistency, that exposure to these materials has a negative effect on attitudes toward women and the perceived likelihood to rape.’ The study also noted that 70 percent of the 46 non-aggressive studies reported clear evidence of negative effects of exposure. 23

A meta-analysis in 1995, using the results of 24 original experimental studies, found that ‘violence within the pornography is not necessary to increase the acceptance of rape myths’ (i.e. the myth that women secretly desire to be raped). The study noted that the link between acceptance of rape myths and exposure to pornography stems from a simple premise – ‘that most pornography commodifies sex, that women become objects used for male pleasure, and that as objects of desire, they are to be acted on.’ The study also noted that such attitudinal changes are of concern because ‘several recent meta-analyses demonstrate a high correlation (about r=.80 between attitude and behavior.’ 24

A separate meta-analysis in 1995, using a set of 33 studies, found that ‘violent content, although possibly magnifying the impact of the pornography, is unnecessary to producing aggressive behavior.’ 25

Another line of research into non-violent pornography makes the distinction between ‘non-violent erotica’ and ‘non-violent dehumanizing pornography,’ where dehumanizing pornography is characterized by depictions which degrade and debase women. Dehumanizing pornography is also referred to as ‘standard-fare’ or ‘common’ hard-core pornography by some academic researchers – ‘the characteristic portrayal of women in pornography as socially non-discriminating, as hysterically euphoric in response to just about any sexual or pseudosexual stimulation, and as eager to accommodate any and every sexual request.’ 26

Examples from this line of research include: A study in 1989 for the Canadian Department of Justice found that ‘high-frequency pornography consumers who were exposed to the nonviolent, dehumanizing pornography (relative to those in the no-exposure condition) were particularly likely to report that they might rape, were more sexually callous, and reported engaging in more acts of sexual aggression. These effects were not apparent for men who reported a very low frequency of habitual pornography consumption.’ 27 The authors noted that ‘the effects of exposure were strongest and most pervasive in the case of exposure to nonviolent dehumanizing pornography, the type of material that may in fact be most prevalent in mainstream commercial entertainment videos.’

The study found that more than twice as many men indicated at least some likelihood of raping after exposure to this material – 20.4 percent versus 9.6 percent. Detailed analysis revealed that these effects occurred primarily for high P (psychotism) subjects – those who are inclined to be rather solitary and hostile, lack empathy, disregard danger and prefer impersonal, non-caring sex (although not meeting clinical criteria as psychotics).

A 1989 review of a series of studies of ‘common’ pornography found that its consumption led to insensitivity towards victims of sexual violence, trivialization of rape as a criminal offense, trivialization of sexual child abuse as a criminal offense, increased belief that lack of sexual activity leads to health risks and increased acceptance of pre- and extra-marital sexuality. The study noted that ‘habitual male consumers of common pornography appear to be at greater risk of becoming sexually callous’ towards female sexuality and concerns. 28

A review of the literature and research in 1994 discusses the ‘sexual callousness’ effect associated with standard-fare pornography, noting that: ‘Enhanced perceptual and behavioral callousness toward women is most apparent following consumption of materials that unambiguously portray women as sexually promiscuous and indiscriminating – a depiction that dominates modern pornography.’ 29

Straw Men

It is customary for pornography advocates to counter such findings by overstating them. For example: ‘It is ridiculous to suggest that one look at a Playboy turns a man into a rapist.’ Of course that would be ridiculous: it’s also not what the research is suggesting. Or: ‘Pornography can’t compel anyone to act in a particular way.’ True, and neither did liquor or tobacco advertisements (now banned or restricted) compel anyone to buy their products. Or: “Pornography doesn’t affect everyone the same way.” True, and neither did tobacco or liquor ads – but their influence was undeniable.

What the research does show is that pornography is a strong, negative influence affectgin attitudes and behavior. It promotes the same attitudes towards women that breed sexual harassment and destroy relationships. It promotes the same attitudes towards sexuality that breed promiscuity and the spread of STDs. It teaches that the main function of ‘a sensitive, key relationship of human existence’ is simply self-gratification at the expense of others. And it is sold without even a ‘Surgeon-General’s Warning.’” This passage came from pages 6-9 of the PDF document linked above, “Just Harmless Fun?: Understanding the Impact of Pornography.” The sources quoted are as follows: 19: Einsiedel, E.F. (1995). “Social Science and Public Policy: Constraints on the Linkage,” Prevention in Human Services, 12, p.93. 20: Ibid. 21 Donnerstein, E. & Linz, D. (1986) “Mass Media Sexual Violence and Male Viewers,” American Behavioral Scientist, 29 (5), p. 603. 22 Koop, C.E., (October, 1987). “Report of the Surgeon General’s Workshop on Pornography and Public Health.” American Psychologist, 42 (10), p. 944. 23 Lyons, J.S., Anderson, R.I., and Larsen, D., “A Systematic Review of the Effects of Aggressive and Nonaggressive Pornography,” in Zillman, Bryant & Huston (Ed.), Media, Children & the Family: Social Scientific, Psychodynamic, and Clinical Perpectives [sic], Hillsdale, N.J., J. Erlbaum Associates, p.305. 24 Allen, M., Emmers, T., Gebhardt, L., & Giery M.A. (1995). “Exposure to Pornography and Acceptance of Rape Myths.” Journal of Communication, Winter, p. 19 and pp. 7-8. 25 Allen, M., D’Alessio, D., & Brezgel, K. (1995). A Meta-analysis Summarizing the Effects of Pornography II. Human Communication Research, 22, p. 271. 26 see note 10 above [note 10 is Zillman, D. & Bryant, J. (1984). “Effects of massive exposure to pornography,” in Malamuth, NM & Donnerstein, E., (Ed.), Pornography and sexual aggression., Orlando, FL: Academic Press, p. 134 (Quoted by Check and Guloien – note 27 below) 27 Check, J.V.P., & Guloien, T.H. (1989) “Reported Proclivity for Coercive Sex Following Repeated Exposure to Sexually Violent Pornography, Nonviolent Dehumanizing Pornography, and Erotica,” Pornography: Research Advances and Policy Considerations, p. 160. 28 Zillman, D. (1989). “Effects of Prolonged Consumption of Pornography,” In Zillman & Bryant (Ed.), Pornography: Research Advances and Policy Considerations, p. 155. 29 Weaver, J.B. (1994) “Pornography and Sexual Callousness: The Perceptual and Behavioral Consequences of Exposure to Pornography,” in Zillman, Bryant, and Hustons (Eds.), Media, Children and the Family: Social Scientific, Psychodynamic, and Clinical Perspectives, p.224.

And finally, here are some more links to articles and studies, complete with sources. http://www.nffre.org/html/ documents/family_structure/ an_investigation_of_the_relationship.html
http://www.nffre.org/ html/documents/other/a_metaanalysis of_the_published_research_on_the effects_of_pornography.html

Yes, I’m well aware of the criteria you posted above, and from what I’ve read, the studies did have control groups. Just because someone’s been exposed to pornography in the past doesn’t necessarily mean that he can’t participate in control group in a study on the effects of pornography. That’s like saying someone who’s been on a high-protein diet in the past can’t participate in a control group in a study studying the effects of high-protein diets. If you’d like to demonstrate that the control groups were somehow invalid, by all means do so, as I still have to wait a few days before I can access my university library to look up these studies.

To michelle: What percentage of men would you estimate have a healthy view of women? My guess would be pretty small.

I agree with you that people are not willing to take responsibility for their actions. I also agree with you completely that people ultimately bear responsibility for their crimes, however that doesn’t necessarily exculpate everyone around them. Let’s say you get into a discussion with a paroled rapist. He says rape is just fine, it’s healthy, it’s a natural urge, and he thinks other people should stop pushing their morality on him. You disagree, vehemently. An argument ensues, resulting in his storming off from the table. I hand you a knife and you go chop his penis off and feed it to him. You go to jail for aggravated assault. Should I go to jail too? After all, I didn’t make you chop his penis off, that was your free will choice. Of course I deserve blame, it would be absurd to argue otherwise.

“He says rape is just fine, it’s healthy, it’s a natural urge, and he thinks other people should stop pushing their morality on him.” This is just another version of the ‘what if someone thinks murder is ok, and not against his morals, should he be able to kill people’? The question in both forms is stupid. When your actions interfere with someone else’s life in a way that hurts them you are doing something wrong. This is not a complecated issue. Criminals usually don’t care that they have hurt someone, and not caring is VERY different from thinking what they did is ok.

Paul-Martin, I also must add that it is interesing that you know so much about porn, sexuality and crime, yet a vast majority of your references were not from the past decade. Are you saying that no research has been done in the past 12 years on this topic? You have never heard of Masters and Johnson, and Kinsey is a fraud - though you are not.

Here is my take on your arguements: you found a website that quotes other websites and since it seems to follow your personal line of thinking you have adopted it as your own at face value. Taking piles of quotes and stringing them together is not an arguement, it is a pile of strung together quotes with no reasoning.

“A lot of murderers and sex offenders do take responsibility for their actions, but they realize that had it not been for porn they would not have been led to commit the heinous crimes they did. One of the dangers of porn is that it desensitizes us. People progress from Playboy to hardcore couple porn, to group sex, anal sex, BDSM, rape fetishes, etc., etc. They become increasingly desensitized to other people’s pain and suffering and eventually begin acting out their fantasies.”

I personally have viewed numerous varieties of porn, and have yet to commit a heinous crime. As amusing as your playboy-as-the-gateway-drug theory is (kind of like the Body-for-Life of the porn industry), ten years of recreational, occasional, porn indulgence has not fueled me with any particular desire to watch someone copulate with livestock and then go stab a few people. Not only do I watch and even enjoy the occasional porno I have from time to time listened to heavy metal music. Murderers have also claimed that rock & roll led them to commit their crimes, so by your rationale I must just be a ticking time bomb. People are desensitized by everything. Do you think that porn is the sole cause of desensitization? Watching Cops desensitizes people, watching Columbine play out on the news desensitizes people, so does reading the newspaper, or playing a video game. How do you explain the fact that many European countries do not censor nudity or sexual content yet have lower crime rates? I will again say that in my opinion desensitization to violence is far more dangerous than porn.

“The goal of the diamond industry is to produce and sell diamonds, a morally neutral end. The means by which it accomplishes this end is through laborers who are paid a fair wage, a morally good or neutral means.”

The Diamond industry was an example of selective morality in the context that it was originally presented in it’s original response to another post that you clearly didn’t read/or comprehend before jumping on your soapbox. Laborers who are paid a fare wage? The average diamond miner in Africa makes 30 cents/day. On what planet does that constitute a fare wage?

“The goal of the porn industry however, is to produce and sell depictions of intercourse, sexual activity, rape, bestiality, etc., a morally wrong end.”

I’m sorry who are you again? Oh, the Messiah…So you do have some sort of qualifications that allow you to dictate morality to the the reat of the heathens. Sorry, my mistake, I thought you just another narrowmind with a keyboard and a very convenient and oversimplified explanation for the worlds ills.

“You have people like purple hosh who see “extremists” as a threat, regardless of the fact that they are responsible for a miniscule amount of crime. It’s not what is most visible that is dangerous, it’s what we can’t see, what subverts is, that’s the real danger.”

I find the subversive tactics used by hate groups to recruit disenfranchised individuals far more frightening. As horrific as the actual events of Sept. 11th were the most frightening thing to me is the aftermath. It is knowing that there are people for whom that event is cause to celebrate. That someone will look at a picture of that and be inspired to try to top it. That someone who doesn’t know me, hates me enough to want to, and is right now planning to, bring about my preferably violent death. Because I was born in Oregon. Or because I am a woman. Or because I am Asian. Right now there is a hate group that would love to get their hands on me for any of the above. Throw in my jewish boyfriend and we’re a hatemonger’s dream come true. It isn’t the actual, physical, in your words “miniscule” percentage which hate crimes comprise. It is the insidious nature of hate crimes. It isn’t what WE can’t see that is dangerous, it is what people like you choose not to see.

Well, I cannot speak for “they”, only for myself. I don’t necessarily think that statistics alone can be used to prove anything because they are easily manipulated. I believe, based on my experience working in a rape crisis center that rape is an underreported crime. I have seen women who have been victimized not report the crime. The stigma attached to rape keeps many women from reporting it. And if you think about it, how many T-men on here would go to the police if they were attacked and forced to submit to anal rape. I think a few might not speak up. Of course I have no statistical research to back it up, although I could do a google search a la Paul Martin and paste up a few links to some outdated sources if you’d like.

“Why exactly is the slippery slope argument erroneous, because you say it is?”

No, because it is rejected as an arguable position by every introductory debate course in this country. The fact that you don’t know this explains a lot about the position you took.

“A normal, well-adjusted ADULT might not have major problems with pornography (or they might, as all people are different), but a teenager will have problems.”

The fact that nearly EVERY young (10-16 year old) boy has masturbated while fantasizing to Playboy, the SU Swimsuit issue, or even the Sears catalog bra section, and subsequently proceeded to grow up to be a completely normal, well adjusted adult doesn’t even phase you? You are absolutely positive that they WILL have problems? What kind of problems, exactly? Are you bothered by the fact that they may want to engage in modes of sexual relations that your version of the Allmighty does not approve of? Perish the thought!

“And what’s your hang-up with the “Religious Right”? Is your defense of pornography based solely on your hatred of religion?”

No, my defense of pornography is based on the fact that I don’t believe that it is harmful to society sufficient to warrant restricting the freedoms of those who utilize it. My “hang-up” with the Religious Right is based on the fact that it is a dangerous movement that wants to re-write history, as well as existing laws, in its own image of morality. And I don’t hate religion. But as the number one cause of all wars, prejudice and hatred in human history, I think organized religion’s track record speaks for itself.

“And what exactly do you mean when you say, ‘I’m familiar with a good portion of your cites, and none of them were exactly earth-shattering in the field of Sociology and human behavioral studies.’ Are you implying that in order for a study to be correct it must be ‘earth-shattering?’

It’s called sarcasm. See, “not exactly earth shattering” means “quite forgettable and erroneous”. Sorry that one flew over your head. I’ll aim lower next time.

To Michelle: None of the references quoted were my references. I sought to back up my arguments with arguments posted on other websites, as they do a far more convincing job than I do of arguing the point, but it seems as though NO ONE READ THEM. No one here has gone into an in-depth refutation of anything I’ve said. They dismiss it in an offhand manner and think that’s sufficient. In going back and rereading my post with strung together quotes I wrote: “In case you still can’t view the pages, I’ve cut and pasted them below.” That was an error on my part, I meant to say that I had cut and pasted the sources from the webpages, whereas what I had written gave the impression that I had cut and pasted the articles themselves. Sorry for the confusion. The scenario with the rapist was a reply to Mike, who said that a crime you commit is your fault and not that of anyone else. I was illustrating that other people can be culpable as well. I don’t know a lot about sexuality, or porn, or crime, just what I read; as I said before, I’m not an expert on any of these subjects. As for the last 12 years, who knows? I haven’t had access to scientific journals all summer and won’t have access for about another week. All the sources I’ve quoted have come from the Internet, not the greatest source of information, but it’s better than nothing. Yes, I’ve never heard of Masters and Johnson, and from everything I’ve ever read about Kinsey, he’s a fraud and an awful person.

To Savannah: So you watch porn and haven’t committed a crime? Great, neither have I, but I have the common sense to recognize that not everyone out there is going to have the same reaction to porn as I do. There are 200+ million other people in this country and each one of them will react differently to porn. For some it will undoubtedly be a factor in the crimes they commit. Others will have no reaction to it at all. That being said, do the negatives of porn outweigh the positives? I haven’t heard any positive reasons to allow porn. Yes, people are desensitized by all the violence and sex around them. That needs to go too. European countries have always had lower crime rates than the United States, but their crime rates have been on the increase now for years. Each Swiss man has a gun in his home, yet their murder rate is a fraction of the United States’. Would you like to see a gun in every American home? Would that solve our crime problem? American and European culture are completely different; Americans live a far more fast-paced, stressed-out lifestyle than Europeans. And Europeans aren’t a monolithic bloc either. A blond woman on the streets of Stockholm or Helsinki might get a few glances, but in Rome you’re going to have guys swarming all over her. Cultures are completely different. I wish you would put the diamond industry thing to rest. That was brought up by purple hosh in a post referring back to a post of yours regarding the ugly sides of various industries and I responded to his post, not to yours. Anyway, it’s a non-issue. As for the 30 cents a day, I don’t know where you get your figures from, but if that’s what they’re paid, then that must be the going wage in South Africa. You can’t very well pay them $5 an hour, or the economy would be a shambles. I do appreciate the name-calling and personal attacks, there’s nothing better than getting smeared, because it proves that you don’t have any logical arguments on your side. Just where do you get off calling me narrow-minded anyhow? I guess because I disagree with you I’m narrow-minded? Because I don’t like to watch porn and fuck I’m narrow-minded? Because I have a moral code that keeps me in line and prevents me from drifting away in the sea of moral relativism, materialism, and selfishness that surrounds me I’m narrow-minded? Because I have respect for women as people and don’t view them as sex objects I’m narrow-minded? Well, then I’m proud to be narrow-minded. As for September 11, Americans were targets before and we’re targets after, nothing’s changed. Extremists are a threat, but I think people overexaggerate the threat they pose to us.

Paul-Martin, that was an impressive post. Assuming, of course, that you’ve actually read all those studies, understood how they were performed, and digested them - not that you just stuck them up here because they look like they back up your argument.


You wrote: “Yes, I’m well aware of the criteria you posted above, and from what I’ve read, the studies did have control groups. Just because someone’s been exposed to pornography in the past doesn’t necessarily mean that he can’t participate in control group in a study on the effects of pornography. That’s like saying someone who’s been on a high-protein diet in the past can’t participate in a control group in a study studying the effects of high-protein diets. If you’d like to demonstrate that the control groups were somehow invalid, by all means do so”.


Okay, here goes:


Actually, someone’s having been on a high-protein diet in the past DOES disqualify them from participating in a high-protein study. It’s just like saying that someone who weight trained in the past, but no longer does so, would react in the same way that a newbie. No, the person who had built the muscle in the first place and was “regaining” it will respond better and more quickly than someone building the muscle for the first time. I imagine that everyone on this forum is familiar with this phenomenon and can attest to it.


Similarly, going on a high-protein diet will affect the body, and those effects will last beyond the diet itself. How long? Well, who knows? Yes, I agree that if someone went on a high-protein diet for two weeks 20 years ago and participated in a study today, the difference between that person and someone who’d never gone on such a diet would be minimal. But we’re talking about porn here, and by your own admission it’s something that people, once exposed to it, will continue to view.


In any case, your whole comparison is off-base. Psychological effects last a lot longer than physical ones, and who’s to say how strong they are? You learn a word once in childhood and have it for the rest of your life. You may not use the word for ten years, but when you need it, it’s there. It’s a mental thing, not a physical thing. Or you get reprimanded by a redhaired teacher in 2nd grade and from then on you hate redheads. There are lots of examples.


So. Who exactly are these “control groups” composed of? (You said “from what you’ve read” - well what exactly have you read? Post something about how these control groups were selected.) 1. Guys who have never seen porn? I doubt any such exist, and even if they did, how would you confirm that? 2. Otherwise normal guys who maybe saw porn as teenagers but never looked at it again? Then your argument about the slippery slope just lost a lot of “ground” (sorry, couldn’t resist), because obviously they viewed pron and came away unscathed - but again, how do you test their assertion that they’ve never looked at it since? 3. Guys who looked at porn, then decided it wasn’t for them because of some religious or similar reason? Then you’ve confounded the control, because how do you separate out the religious (or whatever) reason from the non-porn-viewing?


I could give other scenarios, but I think the point is made. In all cases, there is no way to ascertain whether a person has or has not viewed porn, or to what extent that person has viewed porn. That’s one major problem. And there are others, as I hope I’ve demonstrated above.


Your comparison of porn to tobacco and/or alcohol is wrong because both of the latter are drugs, with documentable physiological effects on the body. They are addictive, that’s why their advertising has been curtailed. Porn may or may not be psychologically addictive, but no one has to “dry out” from it, no one needs a nicotine patch to tide him over, and no one gets delerium tremens when he can’t get it for a while.


Finally, in response to all those reports of serial rapists or whomever having collections of violent porn around the house, I think that there’s a very real chicken-and-egg question here. You contend that the guy was normal before starting to look at porn and that repeated exposure turned him into a monster. Fine, that’s one theory. But how about this: He was a monster to begin with and collected porn because it’s what he was into? Sort of like cooks having a lot of cookbooks around the house, or me having a lot of BBing magazines. The mags didn’t turn me into a BB; I bought the mags because I like BBing. Either explanation seems logically possible to me; I wonder why it is that you only accept the first as a possiblity.

“I was illustrating that other people can be culpable as well. I don’t know a lot about sexuality, or porn, or crime, just what I read; as I said before, I’m not an expert on any of these subjects.” And finally the truth comes out. You know nothing at all about what you ahve been babbling about. Your research, as I thought before (and you have just confirmed) is taken off of a few websites that convieiently agree with your view of porn. This would probably be why your information is ANCIENT. I can tell you with 100% certianty that there have been studies in the past 5 years…let alone the past 12. You have just ‘happend’ to not find them, could that be because they do’nt support your views?

Have you ever actually been to Europe? I have lived there. It's amazing, violence is censored and sexuality is not. They view the human body - and sex - as a natural, beautiful thing. It's not 'dirty' and it doesn't have to be hidden away to protect society. Teen pregnancy is almost unheard of, and divorce rates are a mere fraction of the divorce rates here. Yup, you're right, the Europeans must be doing something wrong.

And yes, though I don't like guns at all, one in every house hold would prevent a lot of crime. If you KNEW that a home owner had a gun next to the bed how likely would you be to break in? I lived in France, where getting stopped for speeding gets your lisence taken away for two weeks. No plea bargins, no dismissals. You get a ticket you get punished. You get caught for drunk driving, you NEVER DRIVE AGAIN. No plea bargins, no slap onthe wrist, no 'just don't do it again.' You see, when this country starts holding people accountable for their actions and actually punishes them for crimes that they commit people will think twice before they break a law.

Speaking of guns…I recall a few years ago when the homeowners of Kennesaw, Georgia were REQUIRED to own a gun in their homes. Not surprisingly breakins plummeted to almost ZERO. I am not sure if this is still in force but at least at the time it obviously had a tremendous impact. Criminals are cowards; they want an easy target. Not a hard one.

To Demo Dick: First of all, I wasn’t the one proposing a slippery slope argument, you accused me of offering a slippery slope argument, setting up a straw man and accusing me of saying that everybody who looked at legal pornography would end up in a schoolyard with a long coat and nothing else. I merely labeled my chain argument “slippery slope,” although it was not technically a slippery slope argument. My bad.

To char-dawg: For some reason you still haven’t understood most of my posts. All I’ve done is provide links to articles which argue the position better than I can and post sections from them, as well as the sources they quoted, as Demo Dick requested. No one has bothered to really address the substance of my arguments, nor of those in the articles, preferring instead to find some fault in my methodology which has no bearing on the validity of my arguments. No, to my knowledge I have not read any of the studies quoted, because I don’t have access to them. My public library has Infotrac, but only a tiny selection of the titles I found had texts attached, most were only abstracts or titles. Infotrac also only goes back to 1980, so I have no way of viewing the studies before 1980. I also take issue with your assertion that someone on a high-protein diet or someone who looked at porn would be disqualified from studies in which those were variables. First off, I do agree that there are problems in most studies on porn. These are, to quote from a study by Kimberly A. Davies, “Voluntary exposure to pornography and men’s attitudes toward feminism and rape,” published in the Spring 1997 issue of the Journal of Sex Research, v34 n2 p131(7): "1. the unreal nature of lab violence

  1. lack of real punishment or social control

  2. respondents’ inhibitions while being observed or interviewed

  3. the use of willing college students as the norm

  4. an experimenter demand effect

  5. publication of studies, mainly if they have positive results

  6. lack of precise definitions of violence and aggression

  7. the ethical inability to produce real violence."

So yes, I agree there are problems, but for the studies in laboratories which measure the short-term effects of viewing pornography I don’t feel that exposure to porn years before would have any effect on it, nor do I feel that a high-protein diet consumed long before a study on high-protein diets would have any effect on short-term studies of high-protein diets. There’s also the fact that the subjects could have told the researchers blatant lies, or that the researchers could have completely made up all the data. There’s no end to what you could doubt in any studies, but in the end we read a study and take it on faith that it’s sound and progressed the way the researchers described it. My comparison is also not off base. Porn is not a purely psychological addiction, just as eating and drinking are not purely physical. Porn is a depiction of people, physical beings, and is consumed with the eyes, through the senses. It is often combined with masturbation, again, an action that combines physical and psychological elements. Similarly, eating large amounts of chocolate is a physical process, but combines psychological elements as well, good taste, pleasurable sensations, etc. Porn is similar to drugs or alcohol. People can become addicted to it and to sex just as easily as they can to drugs or alcohol. There wouldn’t be support groups for porn and sex addicts if the addictions weren’t real. As for the two theories you propose, I have never denied that both could be true. I believe pornography is a destructive influence that can turn otherwise normal, healthy people into sex offenders. There are people, on the other hand, who have a proclivity towards sex crimes and seek out pornography to aid them in their arousal. No one can say with any certainty who these people are that have a tendency to commit sex crimes, but without a doubt they exist. But the long and short of it is, pornography has different effects on different people, not all people react the same way to it. Studies on pornography have shown either that pornography consumption has a positive correlation to an increase in sex crimes, or that there is no correlation, but in the absence of studies showing a negative correlation I am going to stick to my guns and argue against porn.

To Michelle: Just because I am not an expert on porn, sexuality, or crime doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about them. I know more than enough from keeping my eyes and ears open and taking in as much information as I can to be able to debate anyone on these points. The reason the sources are “ancient” (and we know that ancient studies can’t possible be valid) is that I pulled them off websites whose arguments are more convincing than anything I could put together. Why should I argue a point when someone else has already done it, and with better arguments? The reason I hadn’t cited any more recent studies was because I hadn’t found any on the Internet and couldn’t get access to Firstsearch. A search on Infotrac through my public library came up with these, full articles, not all of which necessarily agree with me, but which provide interesting information regardless. 1. The Journal of Sex Research, August 1999 v36 i3 p283. Intellectual Ability and Reactions to Pornography. Anthony F. Bogaert, Ulla Woodard and Carolyn L. Hafer. 2. The Journal of Sex Research, May 2000 v37 i2 p161. Sexual Violence in Three Pornographic Media: Toward a Sociological Explanation. Martin Barron and Michael Kimmel. 3. The Journal of Sex Research, Spring 1997 v34 n2 p131(7). Voluntary exposure to pornography and men’s attitudes toward feminism and rape. Kimberly A. Davies. 4. The Journal of Sex Research, Nov 2001 v38 i4 p333(10). Sex on the Internet: observations and implications for Internet sex addiction. Mark Griffiths. 5. Journal of Broadcasting & Electronic Media, March 2002 v46 i1 p13(21). Third-person effect, gender, and pornography on the internet. Ven-hwei Lo and Ran Wei. 6. The Journal of Sex Research, Nov 2001 v38 i4 p361(8). Psychosexual correlates of viewing sexually explicit sex on television among women in the Netherlands. Ine Vanwesenbeeck. 7. Arena Magazine, June-July 1998 n35 p24(2). Censoring the female body: why the pornographic imagination would do it. Liz Conor.

Here’s a list of others with only titles and abstracts which unfortunately don’t have articles attached to them on Infotrac, at least not in my library. They seemed to be interesting, maybe you’d like to see if you could get your hands on them. 1. Psychology of Women Quarterly, Sept 1994 v18 n3 p323(16). Racism and sexism in interracial pornography: a content analysis. Gloria Cowan and Robin R. Campbell. 2. Ohio State Law Journal, Oct 1992 v53 n4 p1037-1055. Pornography and harm to women: “no empirical evidence?” Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic. 3. Psychological Reports, April 1993 v72 n2 p407(6). Pornography as a source of sex information for university students: some consistent findings. Lawrence C. Trostle. 4. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, March 1989 v25 n2 p159(9). Influence of popular erotica on judgments of strangers and mates. Douglas T. Kenrick and Sara E. Gutierres. 5. The Journal of Politics, May 2001 v63 i2 p501. Individual and Contextual Effects on Attributions about Pornography. Elaine B. Sharp and Mark Joslyn. 6. Psychological Reports, April 1990 v66 n2 p442(1). Pornography as a source of sex information for university students. David F. Duncan. 7. The Police Chief, Feb 1991 v58 n2 p14(4). The relationship between pornography and extrafamilial child sexual abuse. Ralph W. Bennnett and Daryl F. Gates. 8. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, Dec 1992 v7 n4 p454(8) Women’s attitudes and fantasies about rape as a function of early exposure to pornography. Shawn Corne, John Briere and Lillian M. Esses. 9. The Journal of Sex Research, Nov 1989 v26 n4 p479(13). Pornography, erotica, and attitudes toward women: the effects of repeated exposure. Vernon R. Padgett, Jo Ann Brislin-Slutz and James A. Neal. 10. Violence and Victims, Fall 2000 v15 i3 p227(6). Exploring the conncetion between pornography and sexual violence. Raquel Kennedy Bergen and Kathleen A. Bogle. 11. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, July 1999 v14 i7 p683(1). Alcohol and hypermasculinity as determinants of men’s empathic responses to violent pornography. Jeanette Norris, William H. George, Joel Martell and R. Jacob Leonesio. 12. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Nov 1988 v55 n5 p758(11). Effects of long-term exposure to violent and sexually degrading depictions of women. Daniel G. Linz, Edward Donnerstein and Steven Penrod. 13. Journal of Counseling and Development, March 1987 v65 n7 p345(6). Pornography: research review and implications for counseling. Nancy H. Bowen. 14. New Statesman, June 13, 1986 v111 p23(3). What’s in it for women? Rosalind Coward. 15. Human Communication Research, Dec 1995 v22 n2 p258(26). Aggression after exposure. (A Meta-Analysis Summarizing the Effects of Pornography, part 2). Mike Allen, Dave D’Alessio and Keri Brezgel. 16. Journal of Communication, Wntr 1995 v45 n1 p5(22). Exposure to pornography and acceptance of rape myths. Mike Allen, Tara Emmers and Mary A. Giery. 17. Psychological Reports, August 1996 v79 n1 p257(2). On-line sexual addiction: a contemporary enigma. John E. Bingham and Chris Piotrowski. 18. The Journal of Sex Research, Feb 1, 1994 v31 n1 p23(16). Violent pornography, antiwoman thoughts, and antiwoman acts: in search of reliable effects. William A. Fisher and Guy Grenier. 19. The Journal of Sex Research, Feb 1, 1994 v31 n1 p11(11). What themes in pornography lead to perceptions of the degradation of women? Gloria Cowan and Kerri F. Dunn. 20. Personality & Social Psychology Bulletin, June 1990 v16 n2 p296(13). Treating women as sexual objects: look to the (gender schematic) male who has viewed pornography. Doug McKenzie-Mohr and Mark P. Zanna. 21. The American Psychologist, March 1989 v44 n3 p578(3). Misrepresentation of pornography research: psychology’s role. Stewart Page and Neil M. Malamuth. 22. The Journal of Sex Research, Feb 1989 v26 n1 p50(35). Exposure to sexually explicit materials and attitudes toward rape: a comparison of study results. Daniel Linz.

Yes, I’ve lived in Europe, and I’m half-German. Depictions of nudity are nothing to get excited about in Europe because they’re not displayed or posed erotically as they are in the United States. A nude woman being briefly shown in an advertisement for a shower, or for skin care products, or for brassieres is just not the same as the woman in American advertisements who often teases or flirts in her advertisements. Secondly, there is just as much opposition to nudity in public in Europe as there is in the United States. In Berlin last year there was an advertisement for some lottery, I believe, showing a half-naked woman sitting next to a man. I don’t really remember what it was, but apparently there was an uproar by people who saw it as nearly pornographic.

Divorce in Europe is just as high as in the United States, with every other new marriage ending in divorce. Teen pregnancy is lower most likely due to increased contraceptive usage by European teens. That same high contraceptive usage rate is also one of the reasons behind the low birth rate in Europe. Burglary and assault rates are higher in many European countries than in the United States. The only place the US is worse than Europe is in rapes and murders, but even there the gap is closing, mostly due to harsher punishments. The thing about Europe is that you’re punished too strictly for minor crimes and not enough for major crimes. In Finland there were two murder cases that just wrapped up in the past few weeks. In one, a guy who stabbed a taxi driver in the neck during a robbery was given 13 years. In the other, a teenager who killed a couple was given 13 years in prison, since he was not 18 when the crime was committed. I heard of a case in Florida where a guy was being charged with beating his girlfriend to death and argued that information from a criminal conviction in Germany couldn’t be used in an American court. So what crime had he committed in Germany? He beat his girlfriend to death and spent three years in prison for manslaughter. I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. Another case in Germany involved a man who was drunk on a Sunday afternoon. The police received a call and came to check on him, and his BAC was above the legal limit. They asked to see his ID, which he showed them, and when they began to berate him, he tossed his ID behind him onto the floor. The cops then threw him to the ground and pinned him. During the process he called the cops assholes, for which he was fined several thousand marks, as he insulted a police officer. Then there’s the farmer who was sentenced to life in a mental institution for driving his tractor after two beers, although that was due partly to faulty lawyering.

Paul-Martin, if you’re going to say stuff like “There wouldn’t be support groups for porn and sex addicts if the addictions weren’t real” and maintain that you’re going to take studies on faith without having read any of them or understood their methodologies, then there’s nothing more I can say to you. There are numerous historical instances of groups offering counselling for “illnesses” that later turned out to be anything but (the 1890s fashion of “manipulation” to “cure” “hysterical” women is one that comes to mind). The fact that there are support groups means that someone deemed it good to have a support group. Whether it’s really to cure something, just to make money, as an experiment or whatever is up in the air. But the simple existence of the group doesn’t prove anything by itself. I challenge you to show any PHYSICAL indication of porn “addiction”; if you can’t, then perhaps you’ll re-think your comparison to alcohol and tobacco.


And to say, basically, “I haven’t read the studies I’m putting up, I haven’t checked into their methodologies, and I’m taking someone else’s word for what they say”. Well, I’m not going to respond to that at all, except to say that I have actually bestirred myself to read some of these studies that you’re throwing around, and they don’t prove what you’re saying they prove. You don’t want to take my word for it? Fine. But please don’t tell me that I’m wrong or that I don’t understand your argument, because you don’t have one.

OH stop this already. Rape is wrong. Stop trying to fix a problem you can’t. The people that do this suck they always have they always will and the bottom line is we need to put rapists away for life. PORN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAPE PERIOD END OF QUOTE. God why can’t people just take responsibility for what they do. I am so sick of all this wimpy talk about everything. Look you commit crime for one reason you are and AHOLE. No other reason. Go to jail and rot. Its like drug addiction or alchahol addiction what a load of crap. Grow a friggin spine be a man, be and adult and put the damn drink down. If woman says no its no move on and ask the next girl out. If the sign says no trespassing then don’t trespass. So to finalize people follow the rules and respect others and stop being Aholes and to all the people who think you can stop crime through education or getting rid of porn or violent movies etc. shut up already.

great post mike!!! my thoughts exactly!!!