Police Intimidate Me

orion · May 8, 2008, 3:12pm

[quote]JD430 wrote:
orion wrote:
JD430 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think the cops made a mistake when they went from Peace Officer to a Para military group.

I can’t agree with this at all. I understand that the growing employment of SWAT teams, military black rifles and generalized military training among police circles has lead to some concern. However, Barney Fife can’t do this job anymore. Gangs are truly out of control in this country but most people don’t realize that.
Increasingly aggressive police tactics have been the proper response.

Criminal tactics have evolved and changed over the last couple of decades. 40 years ago, the thought of confronting heavily armed terrorists was not anywhere in the realm of reality for the police. It is now. More “mundane” threats like much more
common active shooter events and the rise of super-gangs have required an adjustment by law enforcement.

Honestly, we are still extremely behind the curve. The police should probably be training much more aggressively than they are now.

I disagree.

In Austria we have the “Schutzpolizei” the “protect and serve” kind that does traffic controls, secures the crossings where kids go to school in the mornings etc.

Then we have the commando police who does the dirty work.

It really helps if the first does not even try to do the job of the latter because the inevitably fuck up.

The US is in a strange position because of the Posse Commitatus Act which forbids the US of the military against US citizens. There has to be a very clear separation so the police, even at the local and state level, wind up having to handle very dangerous situations. Although I have never been there, it is my understanding that America is a much larger and more violent place than Austria and requires a much different system to respond.

[/quote]

Our Cobra and WEGA units are basically SWAT teams. All in all they are regular police.

It is true though that in the relatively few cases of hostages or armed criminals we can afford to wait until they arrive. I do not know if that was still the case if it happened more often.

I think the violence during arrests exists to a large part because of mandatory minimums and three strike laws.

Even if you have kgs of cocaine in a car in Austria you would not shoot a policemen, because

a) they really, truly resent that.

b) the few years for the cocaine is nothing compared to shooting or even killing a police officer, because our judges resent that too.

So, most criminals try to run, but they almost never fight.

Who knows what the same people might do when they face an automatic lifetime in jail?

Zap_Branigan · May 8, 2008, 3:24pm

[quote]orion wrote:
…
So as long as we have established that the US is the country where defendants have a really tough time compared to other countries that call themselves "democracies…
[/quote]

However, human rights abuses take place nevertheless. The most frequent cases are of police abuse, while France is regularly condemned, both by French citizens and institutions and also by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) for the scandalous detention conditions in the penitentiary system. The state of detention centres for illegal aliens who received an order of deportation has also often be criticized. Furthermore, although freedom of press and of expression is included in the Constitution, it has suffered over the years from some restrictions in specific cases.

I could post on and on. All countries have trouble with police brutality.

orion · May 8, 2008, 3:44pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
So as long as we have established that the US is the country where defendants have a really tough time compared to other countries that call themselves "democracies…

However, human rights abuses take place nevertheless. The most frequent cases are of police abuse, while France is regularly condemned, both by French citizens and institutions and also by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) for the scandalous detention conditions in the penitentiary system. The state of detention centres for illegal aliens who received an order of deportation has also often be criticized. Furthermore, although freedom of press and of expression is included in the Constitution, it has suffered over the years from some restrictions in specific cases.

I could post on and on. All countries have trouble with police brutality.

[/quote]

True, but that was not the issue.

TB claimed that American cops are frustrated because

[quote]
“Police operate in a system that is built to err on the side of criminal defendant, and yet they often face superhuman expectations of serving and protecting.”[/quote]

The American system errs less on the side of defendants than any European system so how come European cops seem to be capable of dealing with that situation?

Then, there is also the difference that you only rarely find people in the EU who defend the police if they shoot someone for no apparent reason.

conorh · May 8, 2008, 11:46am

[quote]orion wrote:
JD430 wrote:
orion wrote:
JD430 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think the cops made a mistake when they went from Peace Officer to a Para military group.

I can’t agree with this at all. I understand that the growing employment of SWAT teams, military black rifles and generalized military training among police circles has lead to some concern. However, Barney Fife can’t do this job anymore. Gangs are truly out of control in this country but most people don’t realize that.
Increasingly aggressive police tactics have been the proper response.

Criminal tactics have evolved and changed over the last couple of decades. 40 years ago, the thought of confronting heavily armed terrorists was not anywhere in the realm of reality for the police. It is now. More “mundane” threats like much more
common active shooter events and the rise of super-gangs have required an adjustment by law enforcement.

Honestly, we are still extremely behind the curve. The police should probably be training much more aggressively than they are now.

I disagree.

In Austria we have the “Schutzpolizei” the “protect and serve” kind that does traffic controls, secures the crossings where kids go to school in the mornings etc.

Then we have the commando police who does the dirty work.

It really helps if the first does not even try to do the job of the latter because the inevitably fuck up.

The US is in a strange position because of the Posse Commitatus Act which forbids the US of the military against US citizens. There has to be a very clear separation so the police, even at the local and state level, wind up having to handle very dangerous situations. Although I have never been there, it is my understanding that America is a much larger and more violent place than Austria and requires a much different system to respond.

Our Cobra and WEGA units are basically SWAT teams. All in all they are regular police.

It is true though that in the relatively few cases of hostages or armed criminals we can afford to wait until they arrive. I do not know if that was still the case if it happened more often.

I think the violence during arrests exists to a large part because of mandatory minimums and three strike laws.

Even if you have kgs of cocaine in a car in Austria you would not shoot a policemen, because

a) they really, truly resent that.

b) the few years for the cocaine is nothing compared to shooting or even killing a police officer, because our judges resent that too.

So, most criminals try to run, but they almost never fight.

Who knows what the same people might do when they face an automatic lifetime in jail?

[/quote]

I agree. This is one of the few points I gathered from my soc classes. If you treat people like dangerous animals, thats how they respond. If they know they might be killed or seriously injured by the police they are more likely to do whatever it takes to void it, even if it means killing another person.

I watch a few of those cop shows, and that new “DEA” show just floors me. Isn’t it more dangerous ie provocative to go arrest some dope dealer by knocking his door down and brandishing automatic weapons than it would be to just knock on his door and talk to him like another human being? I’m not saying it would be less dangerous, or even more effective, but I guess I have a hard time faulting someone for responding violently in that kind of situation.

I think as a society somewhere we lost the concept of respect and reciprocity in our interpersonal relationships. If you have a problem with your neighbor, you don’t have to work it and talk about it like responsible adults, you can sue each other. If you’re selling drugs out of your house, instead of looking for the solution to what is essentially a social phenomena and resolving it, we spout rhetoric and send paramilitary units into your home and treat you like a criminal mastermind.

Then we wonder why people are so gutless and petty.

thunderbolt23 · May 8, 2008, 3:47pm

[quote]orion wrote:

Nice backpedaling.[/quote]

It can’t be backpedaling when I haven’t changed my position, which is that the US legal system is built to err on the side of the criminal defendant. Which it is.

That is the same position I started with - so, I wish you the best. You’ll need it.

No one is worried about comparing the US to other countries, and it is a red herring to the original point. I’ll lay it out again:

The US legal system has intentional safeguards built into it to err on the side of the criminal defendant
This system, which we want and prefer, makes a police officer’s job harder than it would be should the system not be arranged that way

We want the system that way, and we want cops to have a tougher job as a result of it (that means it is working).

Goodness - a more relevant question: who cares what European cops do? We might as well ask how the cops in Tibet or Brazil feel. It is irrelevant to my point.

European cops may have great lives - better salaries, more vacation, stronger public employee unions generating better packages of benefits, earlier retirement - and, if they experience “less stress”, that may be why. There are too many alternative factors you can’t be bothered to account for - and I don’t have the time to educate you.

I think the first part is right - you don’t know what it is.

Here is the problem - Europeans may have the bestest criminal justice system ever. And it matters little when considering how American cops act and work within their job.

What pressure? Why would American cops have any pressure in a system that affords them so much power and authority, per your claim?

Jobs of responsibility have pressure - and cops not only have responsibility, but they face danger on a regular basis, and they don’t get paid very much.

Most cops handle the pressure just fine, but that doesn’t mean the job isn’t tough - which was the original point, your predictable desire to bleat “America bad! Europe good!” in practically every thread notwithstanding.

The original idea of the thread was to discuss cops - I said most of them are decent, hardworking men in a tough job, and it is tough for a lot of reasons, mainly that they are held to very high standards to prevent crime all the while working in a system that intentionally restricts their power. It’s simple - it just doesn’t fit into your narrative of wanting to bash the US. Not my problem to fix.

Zap_Branigan · May 8, 2008, 3:53pm

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
So as long as we have established that the US is the country where defendants have a really tough time compared to other countries that call themselves "democracies…

However, human rights abuses take place nevertheless. The most frequent cases are of police abuse, while France is regularly condemned, both by French citizens and institutions and also by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) for the scandalous detention conditions in the penitentiary system. The state of detention centres for illegal aliens who received an order of deportation has also often be criticized. Furthermore, although freedom of press and of expression is included in the Constitution, it has suffered over the years from some restrictions in specific cases.

I could post on and on. All countries have trouble with police brutality.

True, but that was not the issue.

TB claimed that American cops are frustrated because

“Police operate in a system that is built to err on the side of criminal defendant, and yet they often face superhuman expectations of serving and protecting.”

The American system errs less on the side of defendants than any European system so how come European cops seem to be capable of dealing with that situation?

Then, there is also the difference that you only rarely find people in the EU who defend the police if they shoot someone for no apparent reason.

[/quote]

BS. The issue has always been “America Bad”.

The police in this country do have more legal and physical threats against them than in most other countries.

thunderbolt23 · May 8, 2008, 4:00pm

And to reiterate my point, before it gets lost in Orion’s noise:

The expectations for cops to prevent crime and protect people are often very high - often unfairly high - and the reason those expectations are unfair is because our system intentionally holds cops back to some degree.

The problem is not the system per se, it is the system’s restraints coupled with society’s expectations for cops to be able to perform at a level that the systematic restraints won’t permit.

There is a disconnect - and that is what makes police work tough.

PRCalDude · May 8, 2008, 4:29pm

[quote]orion wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:

Police operate in a system that is built to err on the side of criminal defendant…

Not in the US.

In European countries where the systems actually proudly err on the side of the alleged defendants cops act differently.

And before you go off on a tangent, no European prosecutor has the rights an American DA has and no European prosecutor can pile NS charge after BS charge on a defendant until plea bargaining seems like a good idea.

No Rico, no consecutive sentences, no plea bargaining, no mandatory minimums as you would understand it, no “three strikes and youÂ´re out” laws…

Plus the US has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners.

So either the US citizens are all OGÂ´s, or the American justice system is anything but rigged in favor of defendants.

Which leads us to the next point that the “stress” of American cops can hardly stem from the US justice system, unless of course the blatant unfairness of the US justice system makes a lot of people see cops as enemies.

But that would be quite the opposite of what you argued.
[/quote]

As much as it pains me, I have to agree.

No other country operating in the English tradition of criminal justice has “plea bargaining” and the piling on of charge upon charge so that you’re guaranteed to be convicted of something. Also, the prosecutor in our country gets the last word. This isn’t common to the English tradition of justice. We also have plenty of other “crimes” that aren’t even crimes, such as “wire fraud”, which involves the use of a fax machine, modem, or telephone to commit a crime.

Mark Steyn did a good series on this when he was covering the Conrad Black case. I’m convinced there are plenty of people in our prisons who don’t deserve to be.

pat · May 8, 2008, 4:30pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And to reiterate my point, before it gets lost in Orion’s noise:

The expectations for cops to prevent crime and protect people are often very high - often unfairly high - and the reason those expectations are unfair is because our system intentionally holds cops back to some degree.

The problem is not the system per se, it is the system’s restraints coupled with society’s expectations for cops to be able to perform at a level that the systematic restraints won’t permit.

There is a disconnect - and that is what makes police work tough.[/quote]

They do a dandy job at controlling traffic though. Catching criminals is not profitable, but giving speeding tickets is. That is not a problem with the cop though, that is a problem of buerocracy.

pat · May 8, 2008, 4:31pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
orion wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:

Police operate in a system that is built to err on the side of criminal defendant…

Not in the US.

In European countries where the systems actually proudly err on the side of the alleged defendants cops act differently.

And before you go off on a tangent, no European prosecutor has the rights an American DA has and no European prosecutor can pile NS charge after BS charge on a defendant until plea bargaining seems like a good idea.

No Rico, no consecutive sentences, no plea bargaining, no mandatory minimums as you would understand it, no “three strikes and youÂ´re out” laws…

Plus the US has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners.

So either the US citizens are all OGÂ´s, or the American justice system is anything but rigged in favor of defendants.

Which leads us to the next point that the “stress” of American cops can hardly stem from the US justice system, unless of course the blatant unfairness of the US justice system makes a lot of people see cops as enemies.

But that would be quite the opposite of what you argued.

As much as it pains me, I have to agree.

No other country operating in the English tradition of criminal justice has “plea bargaining” and the piling on of charge upon charge so that you’re guaranteed to be convicted of something. Also, the prosecutor in our country gets the last word. This isn’t common to the English tradition of justice. We also have plenty of other “crimes” that aren’t even crimes, such as “wire fraud”, which involves the use of a fax machine, modem, or telephone to commit a crime.

Mark Steyn did a good series on this when he was covering the Conrad Black case. I’m convinced there are plenty of people in our prisons who don’t deserve to be.

[/quote]

Yes, it pains me to agree too, but I must. My experience with European cops has been far more pleasant.

lixy · May 8, 2008, 4:51pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
No one is worried about comparing the US to other countries, and it is a red herring to the original point. [/quote]

Tell that to Zap. He started it.

Zap_Branigan · May 8, 2008, 5:11pm

[quote]Phate89 wrote:
The police in America are fucking idiots.
Every other country i’ve been to in Europe that cops are chill.[/quote]

Sorry lixy, wrong again. This is the post that started comparing European to American cops.

orion · May 8, 2008, 5:18pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
So as long as we have established that the US is the country where defendants have a really tough time compared to other countries that call themselves "democracies…

However, human rights abuses take place nevertheless. The most frequent cases are of police abuse, while France is regularly condemned, both by French citizens and institutions and also by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) for the scandalous detention conditions in the penitentiary system. The state of detention centres for illegal aliens who received an order of deportation has also often be criticized. Furthermore, although freedom of press and of expression is included in the Constitution, it has suffered over the years from some restrictions in specific cases.

I could post on and on. All countries have trouble with police brutality.

True, but that was not the issue.

TB claimed that American cops are frustrated because

“Police operate in a system that is built to err on the side of criminal defendant, and yet they often face superhuman expectations of serving and protecting.”

The American system errs less on the side of defendants than any European system so how come European cops seem to be capable of dealing with that situation?

Then, there is also the difference that you only rarely find people in the EU who defend the police if they shoot someone for no apparent reason.

BS. The issue has always been “America Bad”.

The police in this country do have more legal and physical threats against them than in most other countries. [/quote]

The last sentence is probably true, and we are getting into the reasons why.

TBÂ´s idea is most likely wrong.

orion · May 8, 2008, 5:24pm

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
orion wrote:

Nice backpedaling.

It can’t be backpedaling when I haven’t changed my position, which is that the US legal system is built to err on the side of the criminal defendant. Which it is.

That is the same position I started with - so, I wish you the best. You’ll need it.

So as long as we have established that the US is the country where defendants have a really tough time compared to other countries that call themselves “democracies”, we can safely draw the conclusion that the few choices said defendants have left can hardly be a source of frustation for American cops.

No one is worried about comparing the US to other countries, and it is a red herring to the original point. I’ll lay it out again:

The US legal system has intentional safeguards built into it to err on the side of the criminal defendant
This system, which we want and prefer, makes a police officer’s job harder than it would be should the system not be arranged that way

We want the system that way, and we want cops to have a tougher job as a result of it (that means it is working).

Unless of course European cops handle that kind of stress wayyyyy better. Or they have a different idea of what it means to be a cop.

Goodness - a more relevant question: who cares what European cops do? We might as well ask how the cops in Tibet or Brazil feel. It is irrelevant to my point.

European cops may have great lives - better salaries, more vacation, stronger public employee unions generating better packages of benefits, earlier retirement - and, if they experience “less stress”, that may be why. There are too many alternative factors you can’t be bothered to account for - and I don’t have the time to educate you.

I donÂ´t know what it is, but it cannot be a justice system that errs on the side of caution.

I think the first part is right - you don’t know what it is.

Here is the problem - Europeans may have the bestest criminal justice system ever. And it matters little when considering how American cops act and work within their job.

Then, if they cannot handle the pressure they should get the fuck out of their jobs. Nobody is putting a gun to their heads.

What pressure? Why would American cops have any pressure in a system that affords them so much power and authority, per your claim?

Jobs of responsibility have pressure - and cops not only have responsibility, but they face danger on a regular basis, and they don’t get paid very much.

Most cops handle the pressure just fine, but that doesn’t mean the job isn’t tough - which was the original point, your predictable desire to bleat “America bad! Europe good!” in practically every thread notwithstanding.

The original idea of the thread was to discuss cops - I said most of them are decent, hardworking men in a tough job, and it is tough for a lot of reasons, mainly that they are held to very high standards to prevent crime all the while working in a system that intentionally restricts their power. It’s simple - it just doesn’t fit into your narrative of wanting to bash the US. Not my problem to fix.[/quote]

When the US has more people incarcerated and yet more violent crimes are committed than in every other country you probably should care what is happening in other countries.

Furthermore, your original reason why they snap sometimes can only be evaluated when comparing with another country.

Zap_Branigan · May 8, 2008, 5:36pm

[quote]orion wrote:
…