Police Brutality

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
phil_leotardo wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I may have missed some of your questions and if I did (sorry) please in your next post label one paragraph for questions; I will do my best to answer them

Let’s start over again and see how this goes. I have laid out how I would deal with the drug problem in America. While you don’t like mine, I would like to hear what your plan is.
pittbulll wrote:
As far as building a wall around America, one of the reasons (in my opinion) why we can not build this wall is because we are a democratic republic. We can not agree on how to spend a little money. Also if you could build this wall they will figure out how to top it or they will go under it. What I am saying is it won�??�?�¢??t be very effective

We agree on Iraq.

So what if we are a democratic republic? We have borders as it is, what is so wrong with protecting them with a wall? As for people digging under them… there are ways we could utilize technology to maintain it. You can find excuses not to do it, but I don’t think technological deficiencies is one of them.

pittbulll wrote:
Your approach to use herbicides makes me glad that you do not control this problem. The way I would see it, if you did poison some one with your herbicide, you would be guilty of manslaughter or negligent homicide at best. But if our conversation was made public, it could be a capital crime.

The governments of countries like Afghanistan, Columbia,etc. are obviously too corrupt or incompetent to get rid of their cash crops that poison countless numbers of Americans every day; ruining lives and families in countless ways. If it is a true WAR on drugs, you need to extirpate the plants instead of clipping away at the leaves. In a war sometimes people get hurt.

My plan would be to legalize and regulate all drugs, just like alcohol and tobacco. You would go to the drug store and buy what ever you want. I personally see no place for Meth, because high grade amphetamines would be available. It would bring down costs because no one would go to jail for dealing drugs.

When price falls the criminal element would lose interest in drugs because there would not be enough profit in it to even try and compete with the free market.

Mexico would have a much easier time with out fighting our war on drugs. The Taliban and Al kida would have to find other revenue sources to supply the money to make terror

We could let all non violent drug offenders out of prison; we could stop searching every car we pull over, leaving cops to go after bad guys

The problem of building a fence is, in my humble opinion, it won�¢??t work. We would spend billions if not trillions to erect a fence that is easily overcome. And if drugs were legal that would be one less reason to spend all this money

We should fine the living shit out of people that hire illegal aliens. Being a small contractor, illegal aliens cost me a lot of money.

Countries like Afghanistan and Columbia could still grow there cash crop and sell there goods to Pharmacology companies and Herbal brokers to make their money. It may even be a boon to those very poor countries

I know not everything is going to go smooth, but we have been in a drug war since Richard Nixon and even decades before that. And all we have accomplished is to inflate the price of drugs. We have created neighborhoods in America that are battling to get their slice of money out of drugs. We have turned poor nations into battlegrounds because they want a slice of money from this over inflated product. We have turned our police into thugs harassing people they stop for traffic violations, all in the name of THE WAR ON DRUGS.

BUMP[/quote]

BUMP

322

[quote]ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic. [/quote]

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike

323

I thought this video was cool to relate to the topic:

I don’t have a problem with Police as I know a lot of them are good people, but when they start abusing their power (attacking a helpless person 4v1 when he is on the ground) it just gets to be too much.

324

[quote]orion wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:

roducts will curb their use can be pointed out as not true also (see the above legalized examples).

You clearly know nothing about the topic if you think this. People’s consumption of alcohol is very price dependent, raises in the absolute and relative cost will lead to less consumption.
Whether it’s right to have sin taxes is one thing, but on some level they do work.

Yeah, they do create black markets.

Most smuggled drug in the world?

Cigarettes!
[/quote]

*legal drug

325

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike[/quote]

I know Massachusetts is a liberal state, but we are not talking about liberty we are talking about police brutality. Anyway criminals do have more rights than police officers. If a subject is resisting arrest and is lets say kicking and punching, if the cop responds with even a fist he could get into some serious trouble, where is the logic behind that. Did all this police brutality stuff become a sensitive issue after the Rodney King incident in the early 90s. Keep in mind I’m 19 so I do not remember.

326

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
Unaware wrote:

I disagree with that statement. Those drugs both develop tolerance and sever addiction for the user which turns people into sociopaths who care only about their next high. This is why the usage of these drugs and criminality go hand and hand. Making them decriminalized or legalized would not change this inherent trait about them either.

Its not a matter of opinion. ]

Oh yeah…they would NEVER be able to be legal because the FDA would never approve them and no pharmaceutical company would touch them for many reasons.

False, many of these drugs are already produced by pharmaceutical companies.

Let me re-phrase this statement then: no pharmaceutical company will touch it for the off label recreational usage that you are suggesting. Even doctors are weary of prescribing methamphetamine HCL even for ADHD: http://mental-health.emedtv.com/methamphetamine/prescription-methamphetamine.html

Unaware wrote:

  • Diamorphine(Heroin): Produced by Novartis for terminal pain treatment. Used in the United Kingdom.

Yes but illegal in the US. Again… no doc will prescribe this for off recreational usage.

Unaware wrote:
-Benzodiazepines: Numerous benzo derivatives are produced by many different pharmentaceitucal companies.

Don’t see what those have to do with coke,heroin or meth.

Unaware wrote:
I disagree with that statement too. Besides the obvious fact that junkies commit violent crimes to support their drug habits, many low level drug dealers are involved in constant gun battles over a myriad of things: profits, turf, score settling,etc.

Most of these low level dealers would be eliminated if drugs were legalized. Junkies do and will continue to commit crimes in order to get drug money. However with the supply no longer squeezed as it is today, the price would inevitably drop requiring far less theft to support their habit. Regardless the overall crime committed by junkies is far far lower than that of organized criminals in the Drug Trafficking business.

The government would tax the shit out of those industries if they were sold like cigarettes.
If doctors prescribed them to people, in our litigious society both the docs and pharmaceutical industries that actually produced these drugs would both be getting sued out the wazoo too. The places that sell these drugs better have machine gun armed guards behind the counter too (or do you think that the unemployed thugs would give up criminal activities?). Not to mention that if you legalized these drugs, you would have more addicts too.

Actually I don’t like the way the government is fighting the war on drugs; it is akin to clipping leaves off of a plant here and there instead of uprooting it to kill the plant.

Unaware wrote:
How do you suggest the government go about eliminating the plants? Most of these drugs are grown in far off regions of the world. Using herbicides on poor farmers in sovereign nations is going to inspire a new generation of anti-American radicals. Not to mention the cost.

Most people don’t know this, but in 10 or 20 years or so there is going to be an agricultural crisis in the world; the consumption of corn is particularly critical as developing countries like China consume FAR LESS meat than America does, despite having a way larger population than the US does; however, meat consumption correlates with GNP and as China’s economy has been growing so has their meat consumption. There are also ethanol mandates cutting into the corn supply too.

A country like Columbia supplies 90% of the Cocaine and 50% of the Heroin in America.
If the coke plants alone were replaced by other crops (corn, switch grass) they could have a thriving ag/ethanol industry there. We need to replace the illicit drugs with other crops.
Unaware wrote:
The point is not that drugs are good, or that drugs do not cause harm. Even if legalized drugs would still kill people, incite crime, addict kids, waste taxpayer money. The point is that making them illegal makes all of these things worse.

-It encourages violent cartels and gangs and worse yet provides them with funding. According to the National Drug Intelligence Center Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations represent “the greatest organized crime threat in the united states” and that “Mexican and Colombian DTOs generate, remove, and launder between $18 billion and $39 billion in wholesale drug proceeds annually.” http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/18862/ndic_2009.pdf

-According to the study mentioned above, the Federal Government alone spent $14 billion enforcing drug laws, and the DEA Budget has increased almost every year from $65 million in 1972 to over $2 Billion in 2007. http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/staffing.htm

-Despite all of this the overall drug use rate has increased since 1970 with 31% of people admitting to ever using an illicit drug in 1970 compared to 41% in 2001. Office of National Drug Control Policy | The White House

-“The number of drug-related emergency department episodes increased from 323,100 in 1978 to an all time high of 638,484 in 2001.” Source: As above.

Obviously what were doing isn’t working. Time to switch it up.

That’s why we need to destroy the plants and control our borders better.
[/quote]

I can see where you are coming from. I’m sure you’ve seen drugs do horrible things. I totally agree with you that drugs are a huge problem with our society. They cost us a hell of a lot, wouldn’t you agree?

I think that trying to influence countries to switch from drugs to other crops diplomatically is probably a good way to go, and could be very useful in lowering drug use in USA. I’m sure you can understand, however, the ramifications of destroying crops in sovereign countries. We must tread softly.

You must agree that the organized crime associated with the drug war is a menace to our society? The power of these groups is directly related to the illegality of drugs. In essence we grant them a government controlled monopoly of the industry. Only they don’t play by the rules like other companies are compelled too. Surely you can stand behind eliminating their stranglehold on the American drug trade?

I see your point with doctor’s being wary to prescribe these drugs. They are dangerous and doctors are right to be concerned about prescribing them. This is a double edged sword however, as doctors are often worried about prescribing drugs for legitimate conditions because of DEA regulations. Many organizations report under-prescription of opioid for chronic pain conditions, which is an unfortunate side effect of drug prohibition(for further reading: http://www.ampainsoc.org/advocacy/opioids.htm). If we can reduce DEA influence, many doctors would be willing to prescribe these drugs.

Finally the reply to Orion’s reply is spot on. No one should be forced to subsidize these people’s addiction. All this support should be provided from the private sector, from donors who believe in the cause.However, Orion’s point is that with the amount of money spent on the war on drugs we could treat all these people personally and get a better result than the War on Drugs has produced. I know you would rather have the money go toward helping people in need than punishing them for their personal indiscretions.

Thanks for considering the points presented above,

I look forward to your response.

327

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike[/quote]

Do you believe everyone from Massachussets is a flaming liberal waving rainbow flags. Thats like saying everyone from Germany is a nazi I mean thats just idiotic.

328

[quote]ironmaniac508 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike

I know Massachusetts is a liberal state, but we are not talking about liberty we are talking about police brutality. Anyway criminals do have more rights than police officers. If a subject is resisting arrest and is lets say kicking and punching, if the cop responds with even a fist he could get into some serious trouble, where is the logic behind that. Did all this police brutality stuff become a sensitive issue after the Rodney King incident in the early 90s. Keep in mind I’m 19 so I do not remember.[/quote]

Generally speaking I do agree with you. Criminals do get off too easily and good cops have a very tough go of things. The same has been applied to us in the Corps and it gets Marines killed. That said, your attitude will change after a few bad run-ins with a rogue cop. Funny, you’re supposed to be anti-cop when you’re young then go pro-cop as you get older. I’m going the other way…

I’m reminded of the old sheep/wolf/sheepdog adage. I never really cared for it, but have found a newfound respect for it. Cops really are sheepdogs. But what they forget to tell you is that while they may keep the wolves at bay, what does a sheepdog do when a sheep tries to leave the flock?

mike

329

[quote]ironmaniac508 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike

Do you believe everyone from Massachussets is a flaming liberal waving rainbow flags. Thats like saying everyone from Germany is a nazi I mean thats just idiotic.[/quote]

Ah, I’m just poking at you, go easy man. That said, no one is keeping you in that pit. I just got back from Boston a few days ago and there’s something very very dirty about the fact that I cannot carry a fucking brown bess onto Lexington Green. That state is effed and free men should avoid it like the plague.

mike

330

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike

Do you believe everyone from Massachussets is a flaming liberal waving rainbow flags. Thats like saying everyone from Germany is a nazi I mean thats just idiotic.

Ah, I’m just poking at you, go easy man. That said, no one is keeping you in that pit. I just got back from Boston a few days ago and there’s something very very dirty about the fact that I cannot carry a fucking brown bess onto Lexington Green. That state is effed and free men should avoid it like the plague.

mike[/quote]

I didnt know you were just fooling my bad. But yeah most people in Massachusetts are ridiculous, they are just to liberal for their own good. All young kids care about around here are saving the africans, i pods, and what college they are going to. To be honest a lot of kids from school hated me because my views were literally the opposite from them.

331

[quote]ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt know you were just fooling my bad. But yeah most people in Massachusetts are ridiculous, they are just to liberal for their own good. All young kids care about around here are saving the africans, i pods, and what college they are going to. To be honest a lot of kids from school hated me because my views were literally the opposite from them. [/quote]

Caring about starving africans and their education. When will these crazy liberals stop.

332

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt know you were just fooling my bad. But yeah most people in Massachusetts are ridiculous, they are just to liberal for their own good. All young kids care about around here are saving the africans, i pods, and what college they are going to. To be honest a lot of kids from school hated me because my views were literally the opposite from them.

Caring about starving africans and their education. When will these crazy liberals stop.[/quote]

Can you believe their gall, you know us Conservatives hate the poor, they are poor because they are lazy, they should get a job or move or something,

333

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
orion wrote:

All of them? Some of them?

Nooooo… They are a tiny minority of drug users. There is also a huge movement here to de-criminalize drugs like coke, meth and heroin too. Forget the stuff you read in the American papers about taxing people out of smoking; it’s just a fringe element.

Why Dr. Phil and Oprah are going to be featuring a weeks worth about successful professionals who hit the ol crack pipe at work or soccer moms who shoot up before they pick little Johnny at practice…

You should come to NYC one time, go to the South Bronx with your blackberry and commiserate with some addicts sometime…

orion wrote:
And robbing is surely a function of the price of drugs?

It’s more like the fact that people who do those drugs like to be high all of the time and that work detracts away from this. Not to mention that they don’t give a fuck about anything else besides getting high.
orion wrote:
I mean, a weak person would not rob someone if the price of their fix was 2$?

Try getting a pack of cigs for that price.
orion wrote:
I do not think that the problems of drug use would disappear with legalization of drugs.

The problems caused by prohibition though would.

Since that would free dozens of billions of dollars we could afford to give every addict his personal MD to take care of him.

Great… so I get to subsidize medical treatment for them too?

[/quote]

a) a pack of cigarettes would cost you much less than 2$- The reason why the price is higher is because of government. Exactly like with any other drug.

b) you are already paying for it. You can have your socialism in the form of medical professionals or in the form of DEA officers.

I prefer nurses.

They do not shoot at me after kicking down my door at 2 am.

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[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
orion wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
lanchefan1 wrote:

roducts will curb their use can be pointed out as not true also (see the above legalized examples).

You clearly know nothing about the topic if you think this. People’s consumption of alcohol is very price dependent, raises in the absolute and relative cost will lead to less consumption.
Whether it’s right to have sin taxes is one thing, but on some level they do work.

Yeah, they do create black markets.

Most smuggled drug in the world?

Cigarettes!

*legal drug[/quote]

That is irrelevant.

Through taxes the government has pushed the price so high that they are the most smuggled drug.

The whole reason for smuggling is tax evasion.

335

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:
I find people bitching about police brutality very amusing. In this day and age criminals have more rights than the police officers do, it is pathetic.

Says a subject of Massachusetts. Trust me, your opinion on liberty doesn’t carry much water.

mike[/quote]

Can you please specify what you mean by this?

336

Nevermind I caught up with this thread now.

Police brutality is a joke in most cases. I am surprised much of these scumbags don’t get tuned up even more than we see, they sure deserve it. If you decide to act a fool, you deserve an ass kicking IMO.

337

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt know you were just fooling my bad. But yeah most people in Massachusetts are ridiculous, they are just to liberal for their own good. All young kids care about around here are saving the africans, i pods, and what college they are going to. To be honest a lot of kids from school hated me because my views were literally the opposite from them.

Caring about starving africans and their education. When will these crazy liberals stop.[/quote]

I didnt word my sentence properly. Kids these days dont go to college for an education to prepare them for a career, they go for the parties and do drugs and shit. What I meant by the starving Africans was they cared more about them than problems that are actually affecting the U.S, what about starving americans, or the problems that the entire nation faces. However that whole Africa situation could not be handled worse than it is. If Africans are just given everything how are they going to learn to create their own infrastructure and such. I’m thinking of starting a page about that soon.

338

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt know you were just fooling my bad. But yeah most people in Massachusetts are ridiculous, they are just to liberal for their own good. All young kids care about around here are saving the africans, i pods, and what college they are going to. To be honest a lot of kids from school hated me because my views were literally the opposite from them.

Caring about starving africans and their education. When will these crazy liberals stop.

Can you believe their gall, you know us Conservatives hate the poor, they are poor because they are lazy, they should get a job or move or something,[/quote]

Based on what I’ve seen poor people living in the projects are just lazy, everything is given to them. However rural places have extreme poverty and there is little they can do about because there are literally no oppurtunities there. Places in the west are notorious for this. Back in the 1800s towns would be big mining cities, then all the minerals became exhausted and people and their descendants would be stuck their hundreds of miles away from any jobs.

339

[quote]ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt word my sentence properly. Kids these days dont go to college for an education to prepare them for a career, they go for the parties and do drugs and shit. What I meant by the starving Africans was they cared more about them than problems that are actually affecting the U.S, what about starving americans, or the problems that the entire nation faces. However that whole Africa situation could not be handled worse than it is. If Africans are just given everything how are they going to learn to create their own infrastructure and such. I’m thinking of starting a page about that soon.[/quote]

I thought one of the other criticisms of liberals is that they are elitist intellectuals. That suggests they do go to college to learn.
I don’t think people are trying to just give africans “everything”. They are providing aid to people who people who might otherwise die. Imagine if you lived in a community where people were dying from starvation all around you. You can’t get an education. You can’t get a job. I’m amazed people were actually surprised about Somali pirates. If you take away someone’s access to food then expect them to steal from you.

340

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
ironmaniac508 wrote:

I didnt word my sentence properly. Kids these days dont go to college for an education to prepare them for a career, they go for the parties and do drugs and shit. What I meant by the starving Africans was they cared more about them than problems that are actually affecting the U.S, what about starving americans, or the problems that the entire nation faces. However that whole Africa situation could not be handled worse than it is. If Africans are just given everything how are they going to learn to create their own infrastructure and such. I’m thinking of starting a page about that soon.

I thought one of the other criticisms of liberals is that they are elitist intellectuals. That suggests they do go to college to learn.
I don’t think people are trying to just give africans “everything”. They are providing aid to people who people who might otherwise die. Imagine if you lived in a community where people were dying from starvation all around you. You can’t get an education. You can’t get a job. I’m amazed people were actually surprised about Somali pirates. If you take away someone’s access to food then expect them to steal from you.[/quote]

People in Africa should not be starving though. Do they not know how to hunt, fish, or grow crops, I mean Africa is the origin of humans so they should be adapted to where they live. Besides other people in the world live in inhospitable environments and yet are not starving. People in the middle east learned to live in a desert so why cant Africans learn to live in a place that is teaming with animals and resources. Inuit learned to live in the arctic, polynesians were able to travel over the expanses of the pacific and flourish on remote islands.

So why is it they cannot adapt? People in China and India are starving because there are just to many of them. The population in the African countries is no where near as ridiculous as it is in China and India so that cannot be a reason. If they do not learn how to support themselves they will always be a starving people. We have to help them create their own government and infrastructure not just give them food. They have to develop as a people like every else in the world has done.