[quote]Mcincinatti wrote:
Would be tough for someone to disagree
[/quote]
Anyone that disagrees is ignorant of basic biology. So, yeah, not only tough for them, but rather embarrassing to boot.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Define innocent.
Quick question for those of you who believe in such things:
Would you say that the guilt of Original and Imputed Sins is conferred upon all all mankind at the moment of birth, at the moment of conception, or somewhere along the gestational way?
“All hath sinned” seems to be the other side of the “all men…are endowed with unalienable rights” coin.[/quote]
“All have sinned” is hyperbole. I am guessing you understand that as neither Jesus nor the Virgin Mary sinned.
Guilt and stain (two separate things) of original sin are placed on humans at the moment their soul is created. So, this would be at conception. This is why I point out that the Virgin Mary is outside of “All have sinned” as she was Immaculately Conceived.
However, babies are considered innocent (unless you are a raging Calvinist or WBC) because they have not hit the age of reason (around the age of 7), and therefore have not sinned.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
If at conception, then nope. Guilty as hell.[/quote]
I have 2000 years of discussion that proves you wrong. But, say what you will…even though it is incorrect.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/15/planned-parenthood-facing-investigations-over-abhorrent-video-on-body-part/?intcmp=latestnews
Absolutely fucking disgusting. [/quote]
Why let aborted dead Fetus’s go to waste when they can go to research labs to try and further our ability to understand and combat and cure disease, cancers etc that affect not currently dead people? What should be done with them? Should they be individually buried in tiny coffins serving no use to anybody ?
This isn’t disgusting, just like donating my body to other people or science when I die is not absolutely fucking disgusting but the obvious thing to do. Even if someone if pro-life surely they are not against medical research ?[/quote]
Why let your organs go to waste while you are alive. They can help people.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
Can I ask why you are so incensed by the killing of the unborn yet you have marine corps initials as your username which have killed thousands of foreign babies in and out of the womb.
If the killing of innocents is murder and abortion is murder are marines murderers? I would take the religious stuff more seriously if supposedly Christian people actually followed their religious teaching and understood that being an American or being patriotic or fighting in the armed forces of of man is 100% incompatible with Christianity and the heart of its teachings.
[/quote]
Uh oh.
This ought to be fun.[/quote]
I guess he is a Quaker.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
War puts us directly against what Jesus taught us when he says, “Love your enemy,” and “bless those that persecute you.”[/quote]
HAHA. Please explain to me the doctrine of love they neighbor. Also, explain Just War doctrine.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
No I am saying if you claim to be against abortion as a Christian actually be a christian. Don’t be a political Christian who cherry picks theological positions and wraps them up in the American flag and an AR15.
Basically don’t be the Hizb ut-Tahrir of Christianity. [/quote]
No idea what you are talking about. If you are having trouble understanding Christianity please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
[quote]Joe Pears wrote:
Do you support the death penalty? [/quote]
Depends.
Do I think that DP is justifiable? Yes, I do.
My initial question here is what necessarily (logically) follows from your statement above? That sometimes it is okay to murder babies since God’s decree cannot be thwarted? Crunching up babies is not that bad since life is uncertain?
God absolutely and actively controls and causes all actions and events. All actions and events happen because of His sovereign decree, including the sins of men and angels. But God’s sovereign control over His creation is one thing; God’s precepts or commands are another. For example, God commands humans to not murder – this is usually called His “preceptive will.” Scripture also clearly shows God causing men to murder – this is sometimes referred to as His “decretive” or “decretal” will.
Some of these passages below show men transgressing God’s precepts (or commands), but they are clearly not thwarting His active decree. God desires to save some and to damn others. In other words, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens (Romans 9:18).
[quote]“And for this reason I have made you stand, in order to cause you to see My power, and in order to declare My name in all the land. You still are exalting yourself against My people, so as not to send them away” (Exodus 9:16-17).
“And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen” (Exodus 14:17).
“And the anger of the LORD glowed against Amaziah, and he sent a prophet to him; and he said to him, Why have you sought the gods of the people that have not delivered their people out of your hand? And it happened, as he spoke with him, that he said to him, Have we given you as a counselor to the king? Stop! Why should they strike you? And the prophet stopped, and said, I know that God has counseled to destroy you because you have done this, and have not listened to my counsel” (2 Chronicles 25:15-16).
“There was not a city that made peace with the sons of Israel except the Hivites, ones living in Gibeon. They took all in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, so that they should come against Israel in battle, so that they might be destroyed, so that they might have no favor, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses” (Joshua 11:19-20).
“Behold, He breaks down, and no one builds; He shuts against a man, and no one opens. Behold, He holds back the waters, and they dry up; and He sends them out, and they overflow the earth. With Him is strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are His. He causes wise men to go stripped; and He makes judges fools. He loosens the bonds of kings, and He binds their loins with a girdle; making priests walk away stripped; and He overthrows the mighty; turning aside the lip of the trusted men; and He takes away the reason of the aged. He pours scorn on nobles, and He loosens the girdle of the mighty; revealing deep hings out of darkness; and He brings the shadow of death to light. He gives greatness to the nations, and He destroys them; spreading out the nations, and He leads them out. He takes away the heart of the heads of the people of the land; and He causes them to wander in a waste in which is no path. They grope in the dark, and there is no light; and He makes them stagger like a drunkard” (Job 12:14-25).
“He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants” (Psalm 105:25).
“But our God is in Heaven; He has done all that He has pleased” (Psalm 115:3).
“For I know that the LORD is great, and our Lord is above all gods. Every thing which the LORD was pleased to do, He did, in the heavens and in the earth, and in the seas and all deep places. He causes the vapors to rise from the end of the earth; He makes lightnings for the rain; He brings the wind out of His storehouses” (Psalm 135:5-7).
“And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them” (Jeremiah 13:14).
“You are My war club and weapons of war, for with you I will shatter nations and with you I will destroy kingdoms. And with you I will shatter the horse and his rider, and with you I will shatter the chariot and his charioteer. And I will shatter man and woman with you, and with you I will shatter old and young, and with you I will shatter the young man and the girl. And I will shatter the shepherd and his flock with you. And I will shatter the farmer and his team with you, and with you I will shatter heads and rulers. And I will give to Babylon, and to all the people of Chaldea all the evil that they have done in Zion, before your eyes, declares the LORD. Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, declares Jehovah, who destroys all the earth. And I will stretch out My hand on you, and will roll you down from the rocks, and I will make you a burned mountain, and they shall not take a stone from you for a corner, or a stone for foundations, but you shall be a waste forever, says the LORD” (Jeremiah 51:20-26).
“So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory, whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also out of nations” (Romans 9:18-24).[/quote]
Did anyone realize that these verses were in the Bible?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Something tells me good ol’ Jonny wasn’t alone in his lab… I’m thinking, if Jesus was the one, he was sure as shit shining a light down on the man when he came up with this one. [/quote]
I think Mr. Browning was the subject of divine intervention a few times.
[quote]Varqanir wrote: But then, does God really care exactly how we die? Or is God more concerned with how we conduct ourselves in the absolutely infinitesimal period of time between conception and expiration? I imagine that to God, a human lifespan seems like the lifespan of a quark does to us. Does a researcher at the Large Hadron Collider care how a quark meets its demise? Or is he more interested in all the cool spirally moves it makes in the trillionth of a second that it exists?
And if all souls are immortal and will someday return to God, to be judged and either eternally rewarded or punished according to their conduct in the infinitesimal time they assumed corporeal form in this plane of existence, it seems that the smart move, from the point of view of the soul, would be to be aborted early on, before the opportunity to commit any real sins of one’s own could ever present itself.
Who knows? Maybe in the Great Cosmic Scheme of Things, the aborted fetuses are the lucky ones.[/quote]
Regarding the “real sins” of the infant. There is no separation of Adam’s sin imputed to infants and their “real sin.” The immediate and inevitable result of Adam’s sin imputed to the infant upon conception is their mind being polluted with enmity for the true and living God (see Romans 8:7-8).
Here is a brief gospel tract (http://www.outsidethecamp.org/life.htm) that explains how God “commands all men everywhere to repent, because He set a day in which He is going to judge the habitable world in righteousness, by a Man whom He appointed; having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead. And hearing of a resurrection of the dead, some indeed ridiculed, but said, We will hear you again concerning this. And so Paul went out from their midst. But some men believed, joining themselves to him, among whom also were both Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris, and others with them” (Acts 17:30-34).
Further comments regarding infants.
First, all true Christians believe Romans 10:3 – all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate. No exceptions.
Thus, a true Christian can really only have one of two views on this subject, and they both relate to Romans 10:3.
The two views are these:
(1) Infants do not have the capacity to understand. Thus, since Romans 10:3 says that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are lost, then all infants are unregenerate.
(2) Infants do have the capacity to understand. Thus, according to Romans 10:3, the infants who believe the gospel wherein the righteousness of God is revealed are regenerate, and the infants who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel are unregenerate.
I hold to #2. I believe that infants do have the capacity to understand. We have an example in the Bible of a person who had a less-developed brain than most people who are mentally retarded – John the Baptist. John leaped in the womb because he understood.
For an infant to be saved, he would have to be under the sound of the true gospel, of course. So when we’re talking about the children of heathen and any others who have never heard the gospel, it is impossible for them to be saved. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:9-17).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
If at conception, then nope. Guilty as hell.[/quote]
I have 2000 years of discussion that proves you wrong. But, say what you will…even though it is incorrect.[/quote]
Well, I don’t know if he’s a “raging Calvinist”, but opeth7opeth seems to think otherwise.
My post was not an assertion of fact, it was a question. Your answer, and presumably Pat’s answer, is that the unborn are innocent, and that a discussion of Original Sin is irrelevant to the conversation.
One more time, I am not advocating infanticide. As far as I am concerned, the only reasons to kill a living thing is if it is a threat to you, you are going to eat it, or both. I have no desire to dine on roasted human fetuses, so unless it’s an “abort this baby or the mother will surely die” situation, I cannot justify the practice.
The only reason I asked the question was to get Alrightmiami’s (and anyone else’s) opinion on whether a belief in Original Sin alters their definition of the word “innocent”. So far the most thoughtful and satisfying answer has come from opeth7opeth.
Out of curiosity, Chris, does the Eastern Catholic Church baptize infants? If so, why?
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
Did anyone realize that these verses were in the Bible?
[/quote]
Having read the Bible a number of times (including the Apocrypha), I guess I’ll have to answer “yes”.
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
Did anyone realize that these verses were in the Bible?
[/quote]
There’s lots of verses in the Bible.
The one that comes to mind often, with the pro-aborts double talk is this:
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
(Isaiah 5:20 ESV)
Which is what I see literally here, and way to often in these forums. It seems like some people experience ‘Opposite Day’ everyday.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Mcincinatti wrote:
I’ve skimmed the thread and noticed there isn’t a lot one way or the other on when posters feel that life begins. It’s usually safe to assume that a pro-choice person will choose some time after conception and before natural birth (and probably occasionally after-birth), and that most pro-life folks typically see conception (or in some cases, coitus/post-coitus) as the time where ‘personhood’ attaches-would be interested to hear from both sides of the issue (forgive me if you’ve repeatedly defined your stance-not immediately evident in this thread)[/quote]
It is indisputable that a human life begins at conception.
A zygote, that is, the single-cell fusion of a sperm and an egg, is alive. For that matter, so are a sperm and an egg, but they cannot yet be called a “human”, even though they are still a human sperm and a human egg.
A zygote, however, which will in time develop into an embryo, and from that into a fetus, and from there, if all goes well, into an infant, is alive, and it is human. It could not gestate in a human womb were it otherwise.
Is it a person? Well, yes, of course. In exactly the same way that a fertilised egg at Trader Joe’s is a chicken.
Just because it hasn’t hatched yet doesn’t mean you shouldn’t count it.[/quote]
I thought you were done with this thread?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Mcincinatti wrote:
Would be tough for someone to disagree
[/quote]
Anyone that disagrees is ignorant of basic biology. So, yeah, not only tough for them, but rather embarrassing to boot. [/quote]
It is weird isn’t it, that many of those who stump for abortion, require scientific rigor on other issues, but science can go to hell and screw itself when it comes to abortion. Suddenly, science doesn’t count.
[quote]pat wrote:
I thought you were done with this thread?[/quote]
Yeah, I thought so too.
I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if this was already mentioned.
It is a very sad day indeed when many on the left actually support Planned Parenthood and most of what they do, selling baby parts. Think about how far the left has fallen…even over the past few decades.
Would JFK or even Jimmy Carter have supported this? No.
I even doubt the 1992 version of Bill Clinton would have supported such a thing.
Yet, there is Hillary out front groveling for the left wing support of her party defending Planned Parenthood.
This is just disgusting…she is disgusting!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I have not read the entire thread so forgive me if this was already mentioned.
It is a very sad day indeed when many on the left actually support Planned Parenthood and most of what they do, selling baby parts. Think about how far the left has fallen…even over the past few decades.
Would JFK or even Jimmy Carter have supported this? No.
I even doubt the 1992 version of Bill Clinton would have supported such a thing.
Yet, there is Hillary out front groveling for the left wing support of her party defending Planned Parenthood.
This is just disgusting…she is disgusting!
[/quote]
Well it’s obviously having an impact because all the pro-abort extremists are freaking out. They call the video “heavily edited” even though the entire videos are available. They are calling us names and saying all kinds of nasty shit because they don’t have a leg to stand on here. The more they freak out the better.
I just had some moron try and tell me cum is a living human being and if I jack it then I’m committing mass murder too (discussing abortion obviously).
I really feel sorry for the future of our species sometimes.