Philadelphia Open Carry

Off Topic
201

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ll just say the Supreme Court has been wrong many times. Even by there own record.[/quote]

Exhausting you are. Law develops and doctrines change with the needs of society. The two decisions are from 1939 and 2008. And then there are Constitutional State issues to wrangle with. Have you done your research, or are you just expressing your personal feelings? Because if we’re expressing our personal feelings, I want the right to a CCP in NJ. So do we really disagree? Think about that before you continue your replies.[/quote]

No I’m just saying that even the supreme court doesn’t hold themselves and infallible as evidence by the overturning of their own decisions.

Laws develop, rights do not. We are discussing what is codified in the founding document as a right. That doesn’t change. If it needs to change for modern society, then the right needs removal from the constitution.

It isn’t difficult. It’s people with constitutional law degrees that sit on the supreme court trying to use their position for activism that make things confusing.

205

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

He aimed his weapon at a law abiding citizen. How is that reasonable?[/quote]

After he failed to comply with an order from LEO. If you believe an order from LEO is unlawful, your time to fight that is in Court - not in public. In some neighborhoods, he might have been shot. The NRA would have been great help then. Dude is a dick, looking for trouble. He’s exactly the kind of guy that should not have a permit, “in my opinion”.[/quote]

x2… not to mention that this individual was resisting the cop. Passive resistance is still resistance. You can tell the guy is just looking for his 15 min. because he’s so obviously playing to the recording device the cop has no idea is there. At the very least, the guy is obstructing official business because he’s not complying with the orders given, even though he’s offering to do other things that he believes will be placating to the officer.

The cop is actually more than reasonable here, demonstrated by the fact that he transitions AWAY from his own firearm to the taser. I personally wouldn’t let a guy with a gun on him put his hand somewhere I couldn’t see it. Who says he’s only got one gun or doesn’t have a knife or ASP? Is the cop somewhat behind in his understanding of the statute? Yeah, but that’s what the D.A.'s office is for. Cops arrest and write citations, but the D.A.'s office reviews the reports and files the charges because it’s their job to be up on the minutia of the laws, not the cops. This guy thought he was slick and ended up recording himself breaking at least one law in the first 30 sec.

207

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:

[quote]Dijon wrote:
Story:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

Audio:

While I can understand setting up the police to expose corruption, this does not sound like the cop was being unreasonable. I don’t think this will help in exposing anything. [/quote]

He aimed his weapon at a law abiding citizen. How is that reasonable?[/quote]

How did he know he was a law abiding citizen? Should he just assume? If he was pulling a gun on some guy walking down the street who was not carrying a weapon, then yeah that could be seen as unreasonable, but the guy was carrying a gun. If you wouldn’t walk around with your gun exposed why would a cop not think a guy who does is trouble or crazy?
[/quote]

He should assume that the guy is a law abiding citizen because its not against the law to carry openly. I have no problem with the officer confirming his legality, its the delivery that I have a problem with as should we all. This could easily BE YOU.

Many of you may not fit the profile but on a Saturday Afternoon in my jeans and hoody, I’m always the guy that just robbed that house down the road. And I conceal carry. Not a good outcome if both the officer and I are having bad days???[/quote]

In LE you never assume anything about anyone. One of the first things you learn is not to discount the old, small or females if your a guy. Here in a neighboring town a 70 yr. old guy shot into the police station and then led cops to a predetermined location to have a shoot out with them as revenge for something that happened to a family member over a year ago. 70 years old, only other arrest was a DUI 25 yrs ago, and he spent a year planning a systematic attack on a police station and subsequent ambush on officers. The guy stands about 5’4" and weighs 140 maybe. You’d assume you could just Rambo the guy? Why not have your guard up 8 hrs. and go home everyday? The delivery by the cop got unprofessional, but do you really think that was the entire recording? If you fit the profile and you know it, don’t cry when you get stopped. That’s like wearing your best gang colored shirt in South Central and then wondering why cops stop you. I get carrying if places are getting robbed all the time but common sense needs to prevail.

208

This entire conflict started over whose cheesesteak was superior, Pat’s or Gino’s.

209

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

…In addition to the above, you still didn’t address my questions about felon and mentally ill gun ownership. And while we’re at it, what about age restrictions?[/quote]

I DID answer those questions. Maybe it was in an oblique fashion but you’re intelligent enough to have figured it out.

Seeeeeeeeeee:

[quote]push wrote:

Take the case of the felon you mentioned. Does the felon retain his right when he enters prison to peaceable assemble? Vote? Be free from warrantless searches? No, of course not. So, sure, rights can be taken away from a guilty man - one CAN be properly stripped of his rights by the judicial system. [/quote]

Then I asked you to define “mentally unstable” so I could answer you. I now see you have changed “unstable” to “ill.” So define both terms. Does mentally unstable include anyone who has ever been on anti-depressants? Drank alcohol to excess to console a wounded spirit? Or someone who has been committed to a mental health institution? I could run you a list as long as this page.[/quote]

You’re playing word games. Felons and mentally ill or not? Explain why or why not. You seem to want to be stuck on semantics when it suits your argument (define mentally ill), but you don’t want to be bothered with such technicalities when it comes to legal interpretations such as “right to bear”.

I’ll ask you again; do you have a background in law, particularly Constitutional law? Or, are you spitballing? Because I’ve seen plenty a “spitballer” talk about how taxes are illegal, and people like Wesley Snipes are in jail for following their “legal advice”.[/quote]

While enjoying this rather spirited argument, with good work on both sides…I would have to point out BG that Push seem to answer your question quite clearly above.

/This is how a debate should be, not personal and well debated…fine work.[/quote]

I already clarified…it’s like trying to define “obscenity” and he knows it. And yes, this has been respectful which brings me to…

Push, with all due respect, I’ve really just lost my appetite for debate on these forums. It’s an utter waste of time and I need to spend my time better. I’m just as guilty as anyone of going back and forth endlessly, but I’m just losing my spirit for it. There is rarely ever a modicum of respect in these forums and signs of intelligent life are increasingly thin (or I’m just more aware of it). These sorts of discussions do not lend themselves well to an internet forum. On the other hand, I would LOVE to have these discussions in person where points and counterpoints can be made with a certain rhythm, without the limitation of the written word. If you’re ever in NJ, let me know, drinks on me, intelligent debate well past the legal standard for driving. Likewise, if I’m ever in the beautiful State of Montana (and I hope I am), I will be sure to look you up and I’ll still buy the drinks :slight_smile: At the end of the day, we want the same things here.

210

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

…If not, and I assume any reasonable person would not want to live in that world…?

[/quote]

Our society, including reasonable persons, lived in that world for many generations. In relative safety and harmony.

Gun control laws and regulations, rather than increase the public safety, have repeatedly been proven to actually reduce it. Past and present.[/quote]

Classic correlation / causation fallacy. Adjust this argument for the location. People walking around armed in Montana is not the same as walking around armed in a crowded City. I challenge you to spend a month in N. Philly, in the streets, and walk away with the opinion that everyone should be armed.

It’s a chicken / egg argument and you know it. [/quote]

What if I came to the conclusion I wanted to be armed and I wouldn’t blame others for wanting to protect themselves either?[/quote]

I’m going to bow out but I will pay you the respect of a last reply.

I’d say you’re unacquainted with gun violence. I’d lay the same challenge to you as I put at Push’s feet; spend a month in N. Philly (or a similar locale) and then tell me you want everyone armed. You think a gun will save you? This aint the old west, there aren’t any fair duels. Someone pulls on your first, and you’re done my friend. It’s why I preach avoidance and I know what I’m talking about - I’ve protected people and I’m well versed in risk management. There are human animals among us, that do not care about human life. That’s a fact DD. Your gun will not save you every time.

Just respect the fact that we both want the same things ideally, but we differ on the practicality of having them based on our respective cultures. I’ve been to TN, often. Have you spent time in N. Philly? Camden, NJ? I shudder at the thought of anyone running around armed. It would be Beirut. And it’s already Beirut.

211

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

…In addition to the above, you still didn’t address my questions about felon and mentally ill gun ownership. And while we’re at it, what about age restrictions?[/quote]

I DID answer those questions. Maybe it was in an oblique fashion but you’re intelligent enough to have figured it out.

Seeeeeeeeeee:

[quote]push wrote:

Take the case of the felon you mentioned. Does the felon retain his right when he enters prison to peaceable assemble? Vote? Be free from warrantless searches? No, of course not. So, sure, rights can be taken away from a guilty man - one CAN be properly stripped of his rights by the judicial system. [/quote]

Then I asked you to define “mentally unstable” so I could answer you. I now see you have changed “unstable” to “ill.” So define both terms. Does mentally unstable include anyone who has ever been on anti-depressants? Drank alcohol to excess to console a wounded spirit? Or someone who has been committed to a mental health institution? I could run you a list as long as this page.[/quote]

You’re playing word games. Felons and mentally ill or not? Explain why or why not. You seem to want to be stuck on semantics when it suits your argument (define mentally ill), but you don’t want to be bothered with such technicalities when it comes to legal interpretations such as “right to bear”.

I’ll ask you again; do you have a background in law, particularly Constitutional law? Or, are you spitballing? Because I’ve seen plenty a “spitballer” talk about how taxes are illegal, and people like Wesley Snipes are in jail for following their “legal advice”.[/quote]

While enjoying this rather spirited argument, with good work on both sides…I would have to point out BG that Push seem to answer your question quite clearly above.

/This is how a debate should be, not personal and well debated…fine work.[/quote]

I already clarified…it’s like trying to define “obscenity” and he knows it. And yes, this has been respectful which brings me to…

Push, with all due respect, I’ve really just lost my appetite for debate on these forums. It’s an utter waste of time and I need to spend my time better. I’m just as guilty as anyone of going back and forth endlessly, but I’m just losing my spirit for it. There is rarely ever a modicum of respect in these forums and signs of intelligent life are increasingly thin (or I’m just more aware of it). These sorts of discussions do not lend themselves well to an internet forum. On the other hand, I would LOVE to have these discussions in person where points and counterpoints can be made with a certain rhythm, without the limitation of the written word. If you’re ever in NJ, let me know, drinks on me, intelligent debate well past the legal standard for driving. Likewise, if I’m ever in the beautiful State of Montana (and I hope I am), I will be sure to look you up and I’ll still buy the drinks :slight_smile: At the end of the day, we want the same things here.[/quote]

Holy shit…a happy ending.

/passes out

214

THE END

215

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

…In addition to the above, you still didn’t address my questions about felon and mentally ill gun ownership. And while we’re at it, what about age restrictions?[/quote]

I DID answer those questions. Maybe it was in an oblique fashion but you’re intelligent enough to have figured it out.

Seeeeeeeeeee:

[quote]push wrote:

Take the case of the felon you mentioned. Does the felon retain his right when he enters prison to peaceable assemble? Vote? Be free from warrantless searches? No, of course not. So, sure, rights can be taken away from a guilty man - one CAN be properly stripped of his rights by the judicial system. [/quote]

Then I asked you to define “mentally unstable” so I could answer you. I now see you have changed “unstable” to “ill.” So define both terms. Does mentally unstable include anyone who has ever been on anti-depressants? Drank alcohol to excess to console a wounded spirit? Or someone who has been committed to a mental health institution? I could run you a list as long as this page.[/quote]

You’re playing word games. Felons and mentally ill or not? Explain why or why not. You seem to want to be stuck on semantics when it suits your argument (define mentally ill), but you don’t want to be bothered with such technicalities when it comes to legal interpretations such as “right to bear”…[/quote]

C’mon man. “Take the case of the felon you mentioned. Does the felon retain his right when he enters prison to peaceable assemble? Vote? Be free from warrantless searches? No, of course not. So, sure, rights can be taken away from a guilty man - one CAN be properly stripped of his rights by the judicial system.”

[center][u]Does the felon retain his right when he enters prison to peaceable assemble? Vote? Be free from warrantless searches? No, of course not. So, sure, rights can be taken away from a guilty man.[/center][/u]

Sooooooooooo if the felon can lose his other rights then of course he can lose his gun ownership rights.
[/quote]

You are being intellectually dishonest now. You know damn well when I say felon I mean someone with a felony record (or you should know). Can I really be asking you if a prisoner should have a gun permit? Or be allowed to vote or “assemble”? Your reply is nonsensical Push.

Answer the question; should someone with a felony record be permitted to bear arms.

216

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I am trying to scale back my time here and live a life that isn’t rife with internet bickering.[/quote]

Then we are truly of like mind :slight_smile:

217

[quote]imhungry wrote:
THE END[/quote]

If you could only find a gif of some nice meaty vagina lips unfolding like that, I’d purchase it :slight_smile: Now that would be a rose :slight_smile:

218

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:
THE END[/quote]

If you could only find a gif of some nice meaty vagina lips unfolding like that, I’d purchase it :slight_smile: Now that would be a rose :)[/quote]

Give me time, my friend.

Oh, you better be careful what you say on here, BG. ZEB will throw it back at you on PWI.

220

Dear Lord this thread should get 5 stars for the intelligence and respect you guys gave each other. This is how more threads should be.

Glad I read it all, thanks to you guys for taking the time to post in this thread.