I just don’t think our military should be used as a petri dish for social change experimentations.
The fundamentals that made our military, or any fighting force for that matter, great like cohesion, service above self, an no individualism is slowly slipping away.
And then the civilians in charge go ape-shit when the troops show poor discipline and there are all these “investigations” (ie sexual assault charges). Coincidence?
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I just don’t think our military should be used as a petri dish for social change experimentations.
[/quote]
Freedom of religious expression is not a “social change experimentation.” It’s codified in a pretty important place.
Would you have a problem taking orders from a guy with a crucifix tattoo?
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I just don’t think our military should be used as a petri dish for social change experimentations.
The fundamentals that made our military, or any fighting force for that matter, great like cohesion, service above self, an no individualism is slowly slipping away.
And then the civilians in charge go ape-shit when the troops show poor discipline and there are all these “investigations” (ie sexual assault charges). Coincidence?
[/quote]
You realize that these are the exact same arguments that people used before the military became desegregated right?
james
that dam Obama lulz
God some people are fucking tools
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I just don’t think our military should be used as a petri dish for social change experimentations.
The fundamentals that made our military, or any fighting force for that matter, great like cohesion, service above self, an no individualism is slowly slipping away.
And then the civilians in charge go ape-shit when the troops show poor discipline and there are all these “investigations” (ie sexual assault charges). Coincidence?
[/quote]
You realize that these are the exact same arguments that people used before the military became desegregated right?
james
[/quote]
Using logic on people who refuse to think about something in a rational and objective manner rarely works.
I guess we can just say slippery slope a lot though. What if EVERY religion is accepted in the military? No way I’d fucking serve if that was the case. I ONLY accept serving if my religion is the ONLY one accepted!
Fucking Obama. Ruining this motherfucking country if we let freedom of religion happen in public areas. I know we don’t have ANY documents that state to do that. Long live theocracy.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Genuine question for those who have served: How does this differ from everyone wearing whatever clothes they feel most comfortable in? Would such a policy be ok with you? Why or why not? Actually, same questions regarding hair styles, too…[/quote]
Everyone in the military is free to worship whatever god they wish. I personally feel that if your religion means that much to you, why would you join an organization like the military. Like I said before its an all volunteer force.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
And then the civilians in charge go ape-shit when the troops show poor discipline and there are all these “investigations” (ie sexual assault charges). Coincidence?
[/quote]
Yeah, coincidence. Or are you arguing that men are driven to commit rape because they are not being disciplined enough? The notion that relaxed prohibitions on religious expression belongs in the same breath as sexual assault–man oh man oh man.
I’m never told what to do by anyone at all, and I get to have a beard when I want one, and yet have never raped a woman–am I just really, preternaturally moral, or is your premise nonsense?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Genuine question for those who have served: How does this differ from everyone wearing whatever clothes they feel most comfortable in? Would such a policy be ok with you? Why or why not? Actually, same questions regarding hair styles, too…[/quote]
I’m not following your question Chusin. In uniform you don’t wear what is comfortable you wear authorized uniform attire. Same with hair/facial hair, there are regulations/standards that have to be adhered to. Do you mean off duty? If that’s the case, there are off duty clothing standards as well, which I also agree with.
I was Navy from 81-85. Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral. I see no problems with alternative ‘covers’ during worship services; but while on duty I believe everyone should be in ‘uniform’.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that’s the problem some people are exempt from the standards.
[quote]bdocksaints75 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that’s the problem some people are exempt from the standards.[/quote]
Ya, that’s what I’m saying, if it wasn’t clear.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]bdocksaints75 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that’s the problem some people are exempt from the standards.[/quote]
Ya, that’s what I’m saying, if it wasn’t clear. [/quote]
Yeah you were, I don’t know why I felt the need to post that.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that doesn’t make much sense to me. Yet I don’t read the article as the omg end of times for the military. To me the article said the military has decided it may make some changes regarding the way it makes certain decisions. In those cases military people will decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.
I don’t see why this has to be a horrible thing at this point based off just the information I gave above. I don’t see the military as allowing me to serve with a giant top hat, gold cane, and a super soaker if I say those are relics of my religion and I must serve with them like some people seem to be suggesting.
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that doesn’t make much sense to me. Yet I don’t read the article as the omg end of times for the military. To me the article said the military has decided it may make some changes regarding the way it makes certain decisions. In those cases military people will decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.
I don’t see why this has to be a horrible thing at this point based off just the information I gave above. I don’t see the military as allowing me to serve with a giant top hat, gold cane, and a super soaker if I say those are relics of my religion and I must serve with them like some people seem to be suggesting. [/quote]
But just remember, it’s all Obama’s fault. respecting other’s deeply held religious convictions and all…it’s TOTALLY like somebody just wanting to wear whatever they want for the hell of it…i mean, FAIRNESS…and THAT DAMN OBAMA!
[quote]H factor wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Beards were permitted for three of the four years I served; IMO…there was no impact on command effectiveness or moral.
[/quote]
I agree with you here. From what I understand, the new rules will only allow certain individuals to have a beard. [/quote]
And that doesn’t make much sense to me. Yet I don’t read the article as the omg end of times for the military. To me the article said the military has decided it may make some changes regarding the way it makes certain decisions. In those cases military people will decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.
I don’t see why this has to be a horrible thing at this point based off just the information I gave above. I don’t see the military as allowing me to serve with a giant top hat, gold cane, and a super soaker if I say those are relics of my religion and I must serve with them like some people seem to be suggesting. [/quote]
Look at it this way. You require your football players all to wear a shirt and tie on game days (to be uniform). Several mothers, who have never played a team sport, complain that it’s their kid doesn’t like/own a shirt and tie. So the athletic department tells you, the coach, to let the kids wear whatever they want. You tell the team, “If you get a note from you mother you don’t have to wear a shirt and tie.” So now you have some kids in short sleeves, some in long sleeves, some in shirt and tie, and the kids forced to wear shirt and tie are pissed at the other kids who’s mother complained. Not to mention, whether you mean to or not, you probably thing differently of certain kids now.
That’s not a perfect example (it’s not a good example really at all), but you see my point right? No matter how small you as the coach want to avoid any crack in team cohesion. You want your team to be one.
The only differnce between that and the military is that unit cohesion is much more important in the military. If 2 or 3 Marines don’t have to shave, but I have to shave everyday, including when I’m off duty, I’m going to probably resent those Marines. Some will take it beyond simple resentment and the command isn’t immune to it either.
My main issue is really boot camp. Drill Instructors already have a hard enough time instilling discipline and unit cohesion, now you’re adding yet another challenge.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If 2 or 3 Marines don’t have to shave, but I have to shave everyday, including when I’m off duty, I’m going to probably resent those Marines. Some will take it beyond simple resentment and the command isn’t immune to it either.
[/quote]
Or there is an alternative option, which is sacking up and accepting that these guys aren’t doing this because they “just don’t want to” but because their deeply held religious convictions mandate it and realize that shaving really isn’t an undue burden on you. You are a marine, not a 3rd grader.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If 2 or 3 Marines don’t have to shave, but I have to shave everyday, including when I’m off duty, I’m going to probably resent those Marines. Some will take it beyond simple resentment and the command isn’t immune to it either.
[/quote]
Or there is an alternative option, which is sacking up and accepting that these guys aren’t doing this because they “just don’t want to” but because their deeply held religious convictions mandate it and realize that shaving really isn’t an undue burden on you. You are a marine, not a 3rd grader.[/quote]
You’re right, the majority needs to just reach down and grow a pair because a few people are special.
Like I said, I’d prefer all religious clothing, jewelry, etc… be left for off duty times. In uniform you should be just that, in uniform like everyone else.
To me it’s no different than the conscientious objectors. What did you think you were joining, the boy scouts?
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
If 2 or 3 Marines don’t have to shave, but I have to shave everyday, including when I’m off duty, I’m going to probably resent those Marines. Some will take it beyond simple resentment and the command isn’t immune to it either.
[/quote]
Or there is an alternative option, which is sacking up and accepting that these guys aren’t doing this because they “just don’t want to” but because their deeply held religious convictions mandate it and realize that shaving really isn’t an undue burden on you. You are a marine, not a 3rd grader.[/quote]
In the fiction section again ?
Muslims in California pray for rain because of the current drought, and I have no doubt that you respect their deeply religious beliefs.
But if Catholics prayed for rain, oh the gold we would hear from you.