PCT for Non Steroid User to Boost Testosterone

Pharma
21

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Stupid idea.

Any effect would be fleeting. (Im not saying there will be a noticeable effect either, possibly an increase on paper, but probably nothing in reality)

Contiunuous AI use to maximize natural testosterone production has merit. [/quote]

If his FSH/LH are confirmed low, why would using a SERM (which increases those) be a stupid idea?

From what I’ve seen on the TRT forum here and others on the net, a SERM can be used to temporarily increase FSH/LH, which, if not primary hypogonadal, will lead to an increase in testosterone production. From there (this could just be theory) the HPTA is “rebooted” so to speak and will continue producing the proper hormones as one slowly tapers off the SERM.

I don’t see why this is any different than using a SERM for PCT after an AAS cycle, since FSH/LH have been suppressed there as well and the SERM kickstarts the HPTA back into full production.

At the very least, it would tell him if his observed secondary hypogonadism is going to be a lifelong problem (i.e. his pituitary does not start and/or continue the higher FSH/LH production).
[/quote]

I think the idea that nolvadex will ‘reboot’ anything is being pulled from thin air.

This is much different then people using a SERM to recover after using AAS.

AAS artificially suppress LH/FSH. THat is not the case with this guy. I dont see how this is anything more than a temporary fix. I really dont see how the effects of the SERM will last past the use of the SERM if his body is naturally in the state that it is currently in.

I dont see anything to ‘kickstart’. He has nothing to regain in the way someone with a normally functioning HPTA does after suppression from a steroid cycle. The SERM will artifically raise his T levels and I dont see anything to suggest that it will stat elevated after cessation of the SERM. And staying on a SERM for life is NOT something I recommend, at all.

If you want to suggest this for the sake of experimentation (your last sentence) I dont see a problem with that. I hadnt thought of that but it sounds like a decent enough idea.

22

Sounds good VT, that is what I have been reading what might work. Well I have 2 options top try out.

I just have a couple of questions.

  1. Is it best to take nolvadex all in one hit or spread out throughout the day?
  2. What kind of a dosing plan would you recommend to try?
    Week 1 30mg Daily
    Week 2 20mg Daily
    Week 3 10mg Daily
23

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
Sounds good Cymru. The experience you have is exactly what I would like to have. Testosterone levels in the upper rnage even elevated would be fantastic. I will have to give it a go as it sounds like this might be the real deal not like Tribulus.

I guess my only other question which I have not been able to find a definitive answer, do higher testosterone values help in the gym. I mean having elevated levels within the standard range.

For example if my levels are around 13 nmol/L will I notice strength gains weight gain etc… with levels at 30 nmol/L? Both these levels are within range, one low end one upper end.

People seem to have different opinions on this subject so it is very hard to come to some conclusion. I guess the only way is to find out for yourself.

I have been stuck on a plateau for the last year or so and can’t seem to break it. Maybe this supplement will help me get over the hurdle…

Thanks for the heads up on this supplement definitely worth a try.

BTW. Which brand did you use??[/quote]

Testosterone levels in the upper range will help in the gym (cf to lower range), it is not a “quick fix” like an AAS cycle but a longer effect - I have some data showing that athletes with highest natural T levels at the start of a training program are those that have gained the most power after 8-weeks of training (did not look at strength or muscle). There is also plenty of data showing that individuals with the highest T lhave the lowest body fat levels and highest muscle mass levels (especially as we age).

The effect is there but don t expect to see a quick increase in strength or muscle within days or weeks of upping your T production (be it nolvadex or D-aspartic acid). Instead you have to think further down the line - in 6 months your strength will probably be higher than it was if your T levels were in the low range etc. You are not increasing T levels by 10, 20 or 50 times but by 30-40% so the results reflect this.

On a more positive note I certainly felt better, slept better and had an increased sex drive within 2-3 weeks of using D-aspartic acid

The brand I used was by PAS - you can find them on web

24

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

AAS artificially suppress LH/FSH. THat is not the case with this guy. I dont see how this is anything more than a temporary fix. I really dont see how the effects of the SERM will last past the use of the SERM if his body is naturally in the state that it is currently in.

[/quote]

I think certain chronic disease states could also artificially suppress the HPTA to the point where one’s body becomes adapted to running on those low levels, even after the disease is removed. This could be the case for lyme disease, celiacs, fungal infections, and otheres where the body is under constant attack and all HPTA activity was focused on producing ACTH–>cortisol to fight it off (I’ve also seen this referred to as cortisol downregulating T metabolism).

At the very least, for this case, we know that SOMETHING is causing his HPTA output to be suppressed. I think giving a SERM restart a try is not a bad option, if it works, great. If not, we still have gained important information at very low risk.

I would not do this in conjunction with cymu’s recommendation. One or the other.

Also need to understand what doses to take for the nolva, as I’m not sure an AAS PCT level is necessary (but I could very well be wrong).

25

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

AAS artificially suppress LH/FSH. THat is not the case with this guy. I dont see how this is anything more than a temporary fix. I really dont see how the effects of the SERM will last past the use of the SERM if his body is naturally in the state that it is currently in.

[/quote]

I think certain chronic disease states could also artificially suppress the HPTA to the point where one’s body becomes adapted to running on those low levels, even after the disease is removed. This could be the case for lyme disease, celiacs, fungal infections, and otheres where the body is under constant attack and all HPTA activity was focused on producing ACTH–>cortisol to fight it off (I’ve also seen this referred to as cortisol downregulating T metabolism).

At the very least, for this case, we know that SOMETHING is causing his HPTA output to be suppressed. I think giving a SERM restart a try is not a bad option, if it works, great. If not, we still have gained important information at very low risk.

I would not do this in conjunction with cymu’s recommendation. One or the other.

Also need to understand what doses to take for the nolva, as I’m not sure an AAS PCT level is necessary (but I could very well be wrong).[/quote]

Yeah I am not sure about the dosage either when it comes to Nolva. I would rather take less than more if I can get away with it.

The only illness that I ever had and this is going back 12 years now was Mononucleosis. I felt very fatigued back then but that cleared away after about 4-5 months on a strict diet. There is always a chance that this might be a factor with my Testosterone levels. But who knows.

26

[quote]Cymru wrote:

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
Sounds good Cymru. The experience you have is exactly what I would like to have. Testosterone levels in the upper rnage even elevated would be fantastic. I will have to give it a go as it sounds like this might be the real deal not like Tribulus.

I guess my only other question which I have not been able to find a definitive answer, do higher testosterone values help in the gym. I mean having elevated levels within the standard range.

For example if my levels are around 13 nmol/L will I notice strength gains weight gain etc… with levels at 30 nmol/L? Both these levels are within range, one low end one upper end.

People seem to have different opinions on this subject so it is very hard to come to some conclusion. I guess the only way is to find out for yourself.

I have been stuck on a plateau for the last year or so and can’t seem to break it. Maybe this supplement will help me get over the hurdle…

Thanks for the heads up on this supplement definitely worth a try.

BTW. Which brand did you use??[/quote]

Testosterone levels in the upper range will help in the gym (cf to lower range), it is not a “quick fix” like an AAS cycle but a longer effect - I have some data showing that athletes with highest natural T levels at the start of a training program are those that have gained the most power after 8-weeks of training (did not look at strength or muscle). There is also plenty of data showing that individuals with the highest T lhave the lowest body fat levels and highest muscle mass levels (especially as we age).

The effect is there but don t expect to see a quick increase in strength or muscle within days or weeks of upping your T production (be it nolvadex or D-aspartic acid). Instead you have to think further down the line - in 6 months your strength will probably be higher than it was if your T levels were in the low range etc. You are not increasing T levels by 10, 20 or 50 times but by 30-40% so the results reflect this.

On a more positive note I certainly felt better, slept better and had an increased sex drive within 2-3 weeks of using D-aspartic acid

The brand I used was by PAS - you can find them on web[/quote]

That’s exactly what I wanted to hear :slight_smile: I need the effects in the gym as this plateau I have is driving me nuts. Tried all things to break it but struggling, in a way I feel like it is my test levels.

27

Found some information about this and read some studies.
5-10mg will work just as effectively as 20mg a day.
4-6 weeks at this dose and significant increases in LH,FSH and Testosterone levels were found. While E2 levels were not significantly changed.

Another study -
Here are the numbers to illustrate: after two months, 60mg/day of toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and test from 498.96 to 709.79. In contrast, 20mg/day of tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and test from 496.59 to 835.06.

28

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
Found some information about this and read some studies.
5-10mg will work just as effectively as 20mg a day.
4-6 weeks at this dose and significant increases in LH,FSH and Testosterone levels were found. While E2 levels were not significantly changed.

Another study -
Here are the numbers to illustrate: after two months, 60mg/day of toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and test from 498.96 to 709.79. In contrast, 20mg/day of tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and test from 496.59 to 835.06.
[/quote]

given that information what are leaning towards taking? take in mind they said that nolvadex sounded better on paper

29

[quote]RyFry wrote:

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
Found some information about this and read some studies.
5-10mg will work just as effectively as 20mg a day.
4-6 weeks at this dose and significant increases in LH,FSH and Testosterone levels were found. While E2 levels were not significantly changed.

Another study -
Here are the numbers to illustrate: after two months, 60mg/day of toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and test from 498.96 to 709.79. In contrast, 20mg/day of tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and test from 496.59 to 835.06.
[/quote]

given that information what are leaning towards taking? take in mind they said that nolvadex sounded better on paper
[/quote]

If I go with a SERM - Nolvadex

or if I go with supplement - D-Aspartic acid

30

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

AAS artificially suppress LH/FSH. THat is not the case with this guy. I dont see how this is anything more than a temporary fix. I really dont see how the effects of the SERM will last past the use of the SERM if his body is naturally in the state that it is currently in.

[/quote]

I think certain chronic disease states could also artificially suppress the HPTA to the point where one’s body becomes adapted to running on those low levels, even after the disease is removed. This could be the case for lyme disease, celiacs, fungal infections, and otheres where the body is under constant attack and all HPTA activity was focused on producing ACTH–>cortisol to fight it off (I’ve also seen this referred to as cortisol downregulating T metabolism).

At the very least, for this case, we know that SOMETHING is causing his HPTA output to be suppressed. I think giving a SERM restart a try is not a bad option, if it works, great. If not, we still have gained important information at very low risk.

I would not do this in conjunction with cymu’s recommendation. One or the other.

Also need to understand what doses to take for the nolva, as I’m not sure an AAS PCT level is necessary (but I could very well be wrong).[/quote]

I know this is an old thread but thought i would add to it. As VT has mentioned chronic disease state is probably where im coming from. I have had chronic reactivated viruses probably from my low natural killer cell function, anyway my general improvement has improved with antiviral treatment to a level that im able to exercise regularly.

hormone wise my dhea was well below normal range which i have fixed with just 25mg a day and it has helped some. My total T has been in the lower normal range and free t has always been low, my doc is hesitant to use T therapy as my total T isnt low enough,being in australia he would come under scrutiny. I did have high E2 which arimidex helped with and also helped me to lose enough weight that im able to keep my E2 low without arimidex.

Slowly my whole metabolism is changing for the better. About 3 weeks ago i started low dose clomid 12.5mg mon/wed/fri, i feel that my exercise recovery has already improved and i have dropped another inch off my waist quite quickly without any more effort. As for wood, i couldnt roll out of bed if i tried, i have to sort of jump out, lol. Testing here in australia is limited to once a year then one has to pay for more hormone testing which i cant afford at the moment. Next year i will get things tested again and will be off clomid by then and i will see if clomid has kickstarted me.

I got sick about 10yrs ago at age 31, before this i was a gym junkie. Im starting to get my old body back, thank god for muscle memory. My fighting weight is about 105-110kg, i did get to a fat 135kg and have slowly beeen taking it off. I was down to 115kg a couple months ago but started weight training again maybe 6 weeks ago, i have since put on 4 kg(muscle memory)and waist is still coming down.

Sorry for sort of hijacking this thread but thought i would mention my situation and that these PCT/restarts maybe needed for those who havent used roids. My experience isnt over yet as im still on clomid but time will tell.

cheers!!!

PS i will add i put on alot of fat weight while still eating low carb when i was sick, Because of my illness my body just held onto everything making me a fatty, i have used metformin to improve insulin sensitivity and it has helped me alot to lose weight with staying low carb and i think improve overall generall health.

cheers!!!

31

I have had this exact problem except my numbers were much lower than yours. The problem has been resolved by increasing my intake of Zinc.

Zinc is required to produce LH and FSH, so if you are deficient in Zinc your T level will not be optimal.

http://www.medicaljournal-ias.org/Belgelerim/Belge/SenFOTDIRNSCL45512.pdf

Try a Zinc taste test to see where your levels are at

http://www.diabetesexplained.com/zinc-diagnostic-test.html