PCT Experiment W/ D-bol

Pharma
21

[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Wideguy wrote:
I’m not goint to be one of “those people” but I’ve seen the dbol pct idea get ripped appart many times. My only comment/question would be are you going to get a hormone profile done once you stop? Otherwise it’s not really going to prove anything. BTW how long was your cyclce/what did you run ect?

wideguy, you’re right, there are mixed opinions on this. I guess I’ll have to be the guinea pig and see 4 myself.
On sunday I did my last shot of my cycle which consisted of 525mg test and 525mg deca/week for 12 weeks.
A buddy of mine is a doc, so every cycle of mine is began with a complete blood panel and followed by a complete blood panel(once pct has ended). I’ll keep you guys informed.

MK
[/quote]

The idea of using test during PCT is counter productive to the objective of re-establishing normal production.

Your blood tests will NOT be accurate since your test levels will be artificially elevated due to the Dbol.

The thought of tricking your pituitary gland by taking Dbol in the AM is ridiculous.

Anavar is the best drug to use if you abolutely HAVE to bridge. Dbol is the WORST.

Maybe you could try bridging with a little Anadrol?

22

Anadrol has too long of a half life to accoplish what he is trying to do here. The reason he chose dbol is because it will only be active in the morning when his test levels should be at their highest and it should not carry over into the rest of the day when it would keep him shut down. Anadrol has a half life of around 9hrs meaning one dose will be in him all day and possibly into the night which would deffinantly stop any chance of natural test builing/rebuilding over night.
Just my thoughts.
DA

23

caca,
please back your claims up by some documented scientific evidence.
Here is some info. to validate what I’m EXPERIMENTING WITH (this was copied and pasted)!

When are testosterone levels highest? Answer: In the AM, thats when.

Your body releases a tesosterone spike in the morning. This is when tesosterone levels are highest.

When are Insulin levels lowest? Answer: In the AM thats when.

Low insulin levels=increased protein used as fuel. (Also fat, but protein is also being converted to glucose via glucogenesis)

OK, here is where dball’s short half-life works for us (Its 3.2-4.5 hrs btw) Lets take Subject X.

He’s in bridging mode. He has just woken up. The body is about to release tesosterone, thus creating a spike. His insulin levels are low. His LH and test levels are very low. He pops 10mgs of dianabol. Here is where things get interesting. The 10mgs of dianabol will cause a testosterone spike WHICH COINCIDES WITH the testosterone released ENDOGENEOUSLY in the AM by the testes.

The body will be partially fooled. It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone (above the normal test sipke), thus LH function WILL REMAIN only partially(Very little actually) suppressed.

In other words, he is “piggy-backing” an extra dose of testosterone on top of the endogeneously reduced one, thus creating an “inflated” test spike.

Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY RECOVER over time. Also, dballs anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss in the morning from low insulogenic levels. HOWEVER, and here is where almost all of you go wrong. You CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM for this bridge to work!!! Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate.

10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs (Probably less) 5mg of dianabol, is not enough to cause another rise in testosterone levels after the preceding one. Thus, LH function is allowed to up-regulate.

Anything more(Say 20mgs), will cause a SEDCONDARY testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further, thus not allowing LH function to recover. Oh yeah…100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance. The difference between 20mgs and 10mgs means the difference between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to.

So, here’s the scenario summed up: Beginning: LOW LH and test. Adding the 10mgs dball.

LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as testosterone levels are kept at a level which will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dball’s anti-catabolic effects will reduce protein degradation. (Via cortisone reduction)

This is what i call a double positive. You have managed to INCREASE anabolism (Test levels) and DECREASE catabolism(cortisone), during a bridge to boot!!

The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS. I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore complete LH function. It’ll get you 80-90% of the way there but the only way you’re going to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF completely. Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw. (In case anybody is wondering.) The difference is that with anavar you can take it throughout the day and with dball it HAS TO BE once in the AM."

MK

24

[quote]mikekatz wrote:
The body will be partially fooled. It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone (above the normal test sipke)[/quote]

Test production is constantly regulated… almost as consistently as insulin when eating a chocolate bar.
You can’t fool the body. The body can’t think. It responds only. And when excess test is identified, it regulates, and makes less IN A HURRY.

[quote]
Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY RECOVER over time. Also, dballs anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss in the morning from low insulogenic levels. HOWEVER, and here is where almost all of you go wrong. You CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM for this bridge to work!!! Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate.[/quote]

Every time you pop a Dbol tab, you’re suppressing natural production.
What medical breakthrough reveals 10mg of Dbol provides anti-catabolic benefits without suppresing nat. production? None. It’s a theory. A flawed one at that.

Why not 20mg or 30mg? is there a 5mg variable our bodies won’t catch onto?

If this were true, the popular trend would be 10mg cycles, since according to you it does not suppress HTPA, hence the user would not require PCT to begin with.

Clen and/or Epehdrine have excellent anti-catabolic properties without the negative suppresive production affect.

[quote]
10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs (Probably less) 5mg of dianabol, is not enough to cause another rise in testosterone levels after the preceding one. Thus, LH function is allowed to up-regulate.

Anything more(Say 20mgs), will cause a SEDCONDARY testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further, thus not allowing LH function to recover. Oh yeah…100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance. The difference between 20mgs and 10mgs means the difference between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to.

So, here’s the scenario summed up: Beginning: LOW LH and test. Adding the 10mgs dball.

LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as testosterone levels are kept at a level which will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dball’s anti-catabolic effects will reduce protein degradation. (Via cortisone reduction)

This is what i call a double positive. You have managed to INCREASE anabolism (Test levels) and DECREASE catabolism(cortisone), during a bridge to boot!!

The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS. I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore complete LH function. It’ll get you 80-90% of the way there but the only way you’re going to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF completely. Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw. (In case anybody is wondering.) The difference is that with anavar you can take it throughout the day and with dball it HAS TO BE once in the AM."

MK[/quote]

I was being sarcastic when suggesting Anadrol.

I did not suggest Anavar as PCT. I suggest it as a bridging tool, IF you must use one, since it does not suppress NEARLY as Dbol does.

25

MK, what’s the reasoning behind pyramiding the D-bol? 10 mgs then 7.5 then 5? Won’t the higher dosage be just as suppressive as the lower?

Just curious.

26

Hey, Mike what do you think about using this during T-diet. I am 40 I can’t afford losing any muscles. I been using primo for 4 week at 400mg
a week. Now I Still need to lose about 15pds of
fat. I was thinking of using morning d-bol 10mg
for about 5 weeks.

Thanks, Ken

27

[quote]kenbkr wrote:
Hey, Mike what do you think about using this during T-diet. I am 40 I can’t afford losing any muscles. I been using primo for 4 week at 400mg
a week. Now I Still need to lose about 15pds of
fat. I was thinking of using morning d-bol 10mg
for about 5 weeks.

Thanks, Ken[/quote]

Conor, If you read one of my earlier posts, you’ll see that I decided to go w/ 7.5mg for 6 wks.

Ken, If suppression is an issue for you then you can either A.)reduce your primo dosage to 200mg and run that until you achieve your goals, or B.)eliminate primo altogether and go w/ the am dianabol protocol.
In either circumstance, I’d be supplementing w/ tribulus,avena,zma,etc. to be safe.

Caca, I’m not here to get into a pissing contest as my motive on this board is to give input and let everyone else decide whether or not to apply it to themselves. This wasn’t just some fly-by-night idea of mine as it was reasearched thoroughly, and as I’ve stated before, to give validation to the EXPERIMENT, I’ll be getting my regular blood work done after pct. That’s all I have to say bro.

MK

28

[quote]caca wrote:

Test production is constantly regulated… almost as consistently as insulin when eating a chocolate bar.
You can’t fool the body. The body can’t think. It responds only. And when excess test is identified, it regulates, and makes less IN A HURRY.

[/quote]

It makes less in a hurry? Then why does it usually take 2+ weeks to supress your own natural test production when beginning a cycle.

Katz, I have read the plan you proposed on several other boards and it definately seems worth trying. Some people have claimed that it worked for them.

29

[quote]beerbarbq wrote:
caca wrote:

Test production is constantly regulated… almost as consistently as insulin when eating a chocolate bar.
You can’t fool the body. The body can’t think. It responds only. And when excess test is identified, it regulates, and makes less IN A HURRY.

It makes less in a hurry? Then why does it usually take 2+ weeks to supress your own natural test production when beginning a cycle.

[/quote]

no test takes 2 weeks to supress HPTA.
maybe 10 days, if you’re using a long estered test. 1 day if using prop and less with Dbol.

30

[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Caca, I’m not here to get into a pissing contest as my motive on this board is to give input and let everyone else decide whether or not to apply it to themselves. This wasn’t just some fly-by-night idea of mine as it was reasearched thoroughly, and as I’ve stated before, to give validation to the EXPERIMENT, I’ll be getting my regular blood work done after pct. That’s all I have to say bro.

MK
[/quote]

i wsn’t trying to get into a pissing contest at all man. just debating and poking holes where i saw them.

cheers bros.

31

UPDATE:
Just finished up the 3rd week of the am dbol protocol…week 1 I ran 7.5mg in the am, and weeks 2 and 3 have been 5mg. I will continue w/ the 5mg for the 4th week then I’m cutting out the dbol and will just be taking supplements for weeks 5 and 6…after that I will be starting tren for the 1st time:)

Thus far I am very pleased…I’ve actually gained a lb. and have added .5inches to both quads.
Recovery feels the same if not better than when I would run only ancillary prods post cycle. I will update again after week 6.

MK

32

Final Results:
It has now been 6 weeks post cycle (9 weeks since last inj), and I have retained virtually all of the gains I made while on…I started pct weighing 257 @8.6% fat, and now weigh 252 @ 7.9% fat…So net gain of 12lbs. from the 12 week cycle of test/deca…I feel fully recovered and my blood results validate this…Over the remaining 3 weeks I did lose 5lbs, 1/8 in. on my arms, 1/2in on my waist, and 1/4in. on my quads, but I think the majority of the loss can be attributed to loss of h20 retention from ending the am dbol at week4.
My next experiment will be with something similiar to the steroids for dieting article that Cy wrote.

MK

33

[quote]caca wrote:
…Epehdrine have excellent anti-catabolic properties without the negative suppresive production affect.
…
[/quote]
I was under the impression that Epehdrine wasn’t especially anti-catabolic? Hence one of the reasons to consider a product like HOT-ROX?