[quote]Kevin_Meaux wrote:
For the people who advocate that one should follow a particular religion, how do you choose which one is right to you? Or is having “a” religion more important than having “the” religion?
I’m not looking to start a “X is best” argument (though I fear that I will), but what do you guys think is the best way to determine the right path?[/quote]
Begin by actually reading the (Christian) Bible. I know there are plenty of guys who talk it down but you’d be surprised the amount of people who do this without ever reading it. It makes no sense but slamming Christianity is a pretty popular stance (on this site at least) to take so no one questions them.
Anyway, read the book write down questions and actually put as much time into it as you would other important things in your life. At least it’s a beginning.
All the best, if I can ever help you on your path PM me any time.
[quote]Raided wrote:
I like the term adult religion there is something very childish about saying “if you don’t believe what we believe then you’re not going to heaven”.
[/quote]
Why? The cosmos owes you nothing, my good man. What’s truly childish is saying “I can do and believe whatever I like and, by golly, I’ll still go to heaven!”[/quote]
Perhaps what’s truly childish is believing in heaven.
Stranger in a Strange Land popularized the phrase “Thou art God” some 40 years ago.
In a letter to his editor in 1960, Robert Heinlein explained and summarized what he had intended that phrase to convey:
That pantheistic, mystical “Thou art God!” chorus that runs through the book is not offered as a creed, but as an existentialist assumption of personal responsibility, devoid of all godding. It says, "Don’t appeal for mercy to God the Father up in the sky, little man, because he’s not at home and never was at home, and couldn’t care less. What you do with yourself, whether you are happy or unhappy - live or die - is strictly your business and the universe doesn’t care. In fact, you may be the universe and the only cause for your troubles. But, at best, the most you can hope for is comradeship with comrades no more divine (or just as divine) as you are. So quit sniveling and face up to it - “Thou art God!”[/quote]
…and it is this that scares most believers shitless…
[/quote]
Evidence?[/quote]
Ofcourse, why would you believe anything without evidence.[/quote]
Well, he is not talking about a religion. He is talking about people, and a blanket statement like that on these forums needs to be backed up with facts or at the minimum logic.[/quote]
Right, so you wouldn’t believe this statement without evidence, but you would believe in a theory that defines the whole universe and your existence without evidence?
[/quote]
My religion follows logic, evolution does not prove my God is not real. My religion actually accepts evolution. I do not debate theology with non-believers, that is equivalent to debating if opera is the best music with someone that does not like music. I do not say they are wrong for not liking music, but it is pointless to argue with them.
However, we are not having a theology debate, he just stated “and it is this that scares most believers shitless.” So obviously there would have to be some statistical data for that kind of statement in a debate, I mean personally I have never read that paragraph before so I’m not sure if it was supposed to scare me or not.[/quote]
There lot of things that follow logic that have no bearing in life, the movie “The Matrix” could be thought of a very logical conclusion to the reality of our universe and it also does not discount evolution.
You can not “debate” theology with anyone of a different theology than yours.
I’ll play along with your music analogy, though an analogy isn’t really needed, you and me both understand what we are talking about.
It’s more like you would be arguing that opera is the only real music and all other music does not exist, and is a ploy used by the anti opera people to keep people away from opera.
The only thing is that neither you or anyone else can prove they have ever even heard opera or any other music, but believe their taste in music to be only the real expression of music regardless of that fact.[/quote]
The Matrix was the gayest movie on Earth…I was embarrassed for them on their “philosophical” diatribes…“Ooooo, what if ‘dog’ really meant ‘cat’”. “Whoa dude, that’s deep.”
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.
[quote]Raided wrote:
I like the term adult religion there is something very childish about saying “if you don’t believe what we believe then you’re not going to heaven”.
[/quote]
Why? The cosmos owes you nothing, my good man. What’s truly childish is saying “I can do and believe whatever I like and, by golly, I’ll still go to heaven!”
New Ageism is a narcissistic, self-absorbed, pseudo philosophy/“religion.” It is only about attempting to deify the self, to turn yourself into a little god. It’s just the sort of philosophy that would appeal to a guy who talks ecstatically about his own fecal matter.
[/quote]
Well then it is probably much more reaslistic than most religions because we probably are as godlike as any creature we are likely to encounter so exploring our own potential is all there is.
I would not necessarily equate the childlike wish for an all knowing and perhaps all loving creator with maturity and the phantasy to live forever in an afterlife and to be united with an all powerful figure is as narcissistic as it gets.
[/quote]
“Heaven offers nothing that a mercenary soul can desire.” ~ C.S. Lewis
[/quote]
It also holds nothing that any other soul could desire in much the same way as Santa Clause wont come down your chimney either.
[/quote]
That’s fine but quite beside the point. Even if you are not a believer, there is nothing comforting (or wishful thinking or whatnot) about Christianity. It’s simply a matter of understanding the faith.
Regarding the “Christianity = santa claus/flying spaghetti monster” red herring thingie that’s always thrown out on these boards - I am always mystified by this bit of bizarreness.
Christianity transformed the entire western world into a magnificent reality - complete with an enduring and nearly eternal art (paintings, the music, the literature et cetera), a massive and revolutionary scientific enterprise, and the most humane, successful and just political and legal systems in the world. Not only did Christianity provide many of the intellectual underpinnings for these and other impossibly beautiful and unprecedented realities, each and all of these things were informed, inspired, and mobilized by a people brimming with a deep and abiding faith.
Now, Orion, please point me to the civilization similarly indebted to Santa claus or the flying spaghetti monster.
Finally, it seems to me that the people I know who are devout Christians are the most realistic, the most grounded, the least self-deceptive, the most caring people I know. Far from being self-involved, they are intensely absorbed in the people and things and events around them. I cannot say the same of so-called “atheists” (who really aren’t atheists at all because such a thing isn’t really possible.) And I sure as hell can’t say that about new agers.
[/quote]
While I agree that Christianity was influential we do not owe that much to it.
Very often our culture could only evolve by directly fighting its own church and we only are were we are today by rendering it practically powerless.
One could argue that there comes a time to lay off these childish superstitions.
I would not do that because something else will fill that void, but christianity just provided a framework for all kinds of cultural expressions and not just positive ones so I see no reason to put it on a pedestal.
The codification of Roman law and the relatively small and therefore weak states in Europe have as much, if not more, to do with our development as our church does.
[/quote]
And you live in Europe? Have you looked around yourself lately? You are either in denial or practicing intense wishful thinking.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.[/quote]
I’ve given the wife instructions not to shave again. Ever.
Tonight before squats, I mind melded with a butterfly then I sacrificed a cabbage in the name of Gaia, Mother Earth, and the Easterly Wind. I got another 3 reps out of my squats.
please pardon my noobness, Im alot younger than all of yous, but I have a few questions.
So since I’m a catholic and I am religious, I believe there is an afterlife after being on the earth is all said and done, Im doing something wrong? I should convert to Buddhism? (not that I will)
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.[/quote]
I’ve given the wife instructions not to shave again. Ever.
Tonight before squats, I mind melded with a butterfly then I sacrificed a cabbage in the name of Gaia, Mother Earth, and the Easterly Wind. I got another 3 reps out of my squats.
Next week, I sacrifice a cabbage AND a pineapple.[/quote]
How is this different than Cain and Able’s sacrifices which greatly affected how the Christian God treated each one of them?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.[/quote]
I’ve given the wife instructions not to shave again. Ever.
Tonight before squats, I mind melded with a butterfly then I sacrificed a cabbage in the name of Gaia, Mother Earth, and the Easterly Wind. I got another 3 reps out of my squats.
Next week, I sacrifice a cabbage AND a pineapple.[/quote]
How is this different than Cain and Able’s sacrifices which greatly affected how the Christian treated each one of them?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.[/quote]
I’ve given the wife instructions not to shave again. Ever.
Tonight before squats, I mind melded with a butterfly then I sacrificed a cabbage in the name of Gaia, Mother Earth, and the Easterly Wind. I got another 3 reps out of my squats.
Next week, I sacrifice a cabbage AND a pineapple.[/quote]
How is this different than Cain and Able’s sacrifices which greatly affected how the Christian God treated each one of them?
[/quote]
One is a story with many layers of meaning; the other is a guy parodying new age wicca bullshit on the internet. Personally I thought Steely’s little riff was hilarious.
The Matrix was the gayest movie on Earth…I was embarrassed for them on their “philosophical” diatribes…“Ooooo, what if ‘dog’ really meant ‘cat’”. “Whoa dude, that’s deep.”[/quote]
A sermon by a progressive Protestant pastor (referencing Ken Wilber’s ideas) that synthesizes the best of some of the differing viewpoints expressed on this thread: http://groups.gaia.com/ii/conversations/view/467593
[quote]darrenrs wrote:
A sermon by a progressive Protestant pastor (referencing Ken Wilber’s ideas) that synthesizes the best of some of the differing viewpoints expressed on this thread: http://groups.gaia.com/ii/conversations/view/467593.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[/quote]Yeah, I live in the 21st century, in the most technologically advanced society on earth[/quote]
This might be off topic, but…I am assuming you are in America? We often think of ourselves as the most technologically advanced society, but I don’t see that as true so much anymore. I have been living in Asia the last 4 years, and much of America is in the technological dark ages compared to many places over here. We might fund a lot of the R&D, have the biggest GDP, be home to the biggest brands and most of the Fortune 500s, have an artificially (and temporarily) high standard of living because we buy crap made by workers in others countries making slave wages, but our society is hardly wired like much of the rest of the world. And what was the last engineering feat accomplished in the US? They go up weekly in Asia. I worry for my homeland’s ability to compete, and it’s all the sadder so many American’s still think of themselves as the hottest shit since sliced bread.
(I am not talking about politics, freedoms, rights etc.)
And for whoever said it above, I love the analogy of “faith” as being that box were we throw all those parts of Christianity that we can’t quite seem to reason out well enough - the way we deal with our cognitive dissonance.
Looking at the history of the Nicene Creed and the Analogy of Faith it’s a wonder people still at look at the Bible as anything other than a book of philosophies (many contradictory) and a loose retelling of random historical events relevant to a certain group of people at a certain time.
The funniest thing was taking Religion 101 in college, where you learn where everything comes from, and having the class be taught by a professor who was a practicing Christian, talk about faith (cognitive dissonance). Can we please utilize those positive aspects of Christianity of which there are many and discard the rest of the BS? I don’t think people are willing… we’re still talking heaven and hell, c’mon people - scare tactics to keep the illiterate peasants inline. Carrots and sticks, focused on societal stability. Reason this stuff out…
[quote]migrantworker wrote:
And for whoever said it above, I love the analogy of “faith” as being that box were we throw all those parts of Christianity that we can’t quite seem to reason out well enough - the way we deal with our cognitive dissonance.
Looking at the history of the Nicene Creed and the Analogy of Faith it’s a wonder people still at look at the Bible as anything other than a book of philosophies (many contradictory) and a loose retelling of random historical events relevant to a certain group of people at a certain time.
The funniest thing was taking Religion 101 in college, where you learn where everything comes from, and having the class be taught by a professor who was a practicing Christian, talk about faith (cognitive dissonance). Can we please utilize those positive aspects of Christianity of which there are many and discard the rest of the BS? I don’t think people are willing… we’re still talking heaven and hell, c’mon people - scare tactics to keep the illiterate peasants inline. Carrots and sticks, focused on societal stability. Reason this stuff out…[/quote]
Wow, that was really thoughtful. Thanks. You sure reasoned good there.
A philosophy professor I admire uses an amazing method of debate in his classroom.
First, he asks who are the atheists and who are the theists.
He then divides the class in two and asks each side if they have good and well-thought out arguments. They both say, emphatically, “yes.”
He then says, “if you don’t understand the opposing argument, you can’t really understand your own, right?” Everyone nods their heads yes.
Then, he he says: “okay, all of the theists now have to argue the atheist position; and all the atheists have to argue the theist position.”
Invariably, the atheists have no idea how to argue for theism. They sort of fall flat on their faces, repeating inane arguments that no theist would ever make. They understand nothing of theism.
But here’s the interesting part: the atheists are really surprised about another thing: the theists actually argue more strongly and deeply for atheism than the atheists can. The theists understand atheism better than the atheists. Not only does this mean that theists understand their own theistic arguments better; it also means that they have grappled with atheism at a deeper level than atheists. Obviously they found it wanting. LOL
We should start a thread doing the exact same thing. Judging by the posts so far, I think we’d have a similar result.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Wait, so have my gains stalled because I’m not eating enough dead meat or because I’m not lighting candles around squat rack?[/quote]
If you sit with your hands folded like your about to shit in the woods, and coalesce the existence of squats and and how they bring you inner peiece, you should be able to squat another hundred pounds easily.
Or you can do the new age thing and rub a crystal on your head and fuck the shit out of a chick with hairy arm pits. That to, should add a shit load of weight to your squat.[/quote]
I’ve given the wife instructions not to shave again. Ever.
Tonight before squats, I mind melded with a butterfly then I sacrificed a cabbage in the name of Gaia, Mother Earth, and the Easterly Wind. I got another 3 reps out of my squats.
Next week, I sacrifice a cabbage AND a pineapple.[/quote]
The Matrix was the gayest movie on Earth…I was embarrassed for them on their “philosophical” diatribes…“Ooooo, what if ‘dog’ really meant ‘cat’”. “Whoa dude, that’s deep.”[/quote]
[quote]Raided wrote:
I like the term adult religion there is something very childish about saying “if you don’t believe what we believe then you’re not going to heaven”.
[/quote]
Why? The cosmos owes you nothing, my good man. What’s truly childish is saying “I can do and believe whatever I like and, by golly, I’ll still go to heaven!”
New Ageism is a narcissistic, self-absorbed, pseudo philosophy/“religion.” It is only about attempting to deify the self, to turn yourself into a little god. It’s just the sort of philosophy that would appeal to a guy who talks ecstatically about his own fecal matter.
[/quote]
Well then it is probably much more reaslistic than most religions because we probably are as godlike as any creature we are likely to encounter so exploring our own potential is all there is.
I would not necessarily equate the childlike wish for an all knowing and perhaps all loving creator with maturity and the phantasy to live forever in an afterlife and to be united with an all powerful figure is as narcissistic as it gets.
[/quote]
“Heaven offers nothing that a mercenary soul can desire.” ~ C.S. Lewis
[/quote]
It also holds nothing that any other soul could desire in much the same way as Santa Clause wont come down your chimney either.
[/quote]
That’s fine but quite beside the point. Even if you are not a believer, there is nothing comforting (or wishful thinking or whatnot) about Christianity. It’s simply a matter of understanding the faith.
Regarding the “Christianity = santa claus/flying spaghetti monster” red herring thingie that’s always thrown out on these boards - I am always mystified by this bit of bizarreness.
Christianity transformed the entire western world into a magnificent reality - complete with an enduring and nearly eternal art (paintings, the music, the literature et cetera), a massive and revolutionary scientific enterprise, and the most humane, successful and just political and legal systems in the world. Not only did Christianity provide many of the intellectual underpinnings for these and other impossibly beautiful and unprecedented realities, each and all of these things were informed, inspired, and mobilized by a people brimming with a deep and abiding faith.
Now, Orion, please point me to the civilization similarly indebted to Santa claus or the flying spaghetti monster.
Finally, it seems to me that the people I know who are devout Christians are the most realistic, the most grounded, the least self-deceptive, the most caring people I know. Far from being self-involved, they are intensely absorbed in the people and things and events around them. I cannot say the same of so-called “atheists” (who really aren’t atheists at all because such a thing isn’t really possible.) And I sure as hell can’t say that about new agers.
[/quote]
OK, obviously I hit a nerve with you. No one is going to argue that Christianity wasn’t a shaping force in western civilization. Christianity inspired the Cistine Chapel, that’s pretty, and laid down a not so bad moral code, even better. So why can’t we accept its morals and throw out the rest? You don’t have to, I really don’t care, but there’s no reason why the rest of us need to keep participating in the other ceremonies and traditions. We might be honest enough with ourselves to take what is useful and discard the rest. Some of us are, and do just that. I don’t need to be a “believer” to abide by the moral system.
Also unlike you, I see no correlation between being Christian and being nice, as you stated. Seems you’re a Christian, probably associate with other Christians, and also happen to like the people you associate with, funny how that works.
