[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think aleksander is speaking about Ideal Communism. Ideally communism is not bad. Just as Ideally a Democracy or a Republic would be superior to what we have today[/quote]
He is talking about a Utopia that cannot exist.
It is the atheist version of debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Capitalism = less government control = freedom.
Communism = more government control = subservience.
I for one am glad the US and our allies have stood up to the various communist regimes that have tried to spread their poison.
Zap, that is incorrect. Communism has nothing to do with political structure. It is an economic system. You give an example of selling a product; in a communist system, there is no currency. Seriously, what you are thinking of is state capitalism, not communism. I don’t blame you, text books have been making that mistake for decades.
Alexandr, you think of Communism as the nonexistant utopia. It is against all our natural urges. It does not work when people exhibit free will.
I understand communism is an ECONOMIC system. The only way people can be forced into such a horrible thing is through a totalitarian government.
Totalitarian and communism go hand in hand. It can be no other way.[/quote]
The only thing history has shown is megalomaniacs will use whatever label gives them the best chance of gaining power. Your argument that the only way to have people live in a communist fashion is totalitarianism is easily refuted, just look at primitive communist societies. It may be true that communism is incompatible with american values, but values are learned.
But whether it would work or not is not the issue here. Let’s first get the definition of what it is clear. Communism is an economic system where the goal of production is to satisfy needs, not generate wealth. Utopian, idealist, call it whatever you want. But it certainly is not the system the USSR had, as the goal of production there was to generate wealth, except for the government instead of individuals (hence the name “state-capitalism”), which presumably would be redistributed to the people in whatever way the government saw fit. Personally, I don’t think this system is very useful, because I simply don’t have that much faith in government. Other people think that that system was superior to a free market, and while I disagree, I respect their right to their own opinions.
I think communist is a ridiculous system based on pseudo-scientific principles. I am strongly against communist ideals.
Yet, the right of a nation to choose how they will be led should be absolute. The U.S. should have absolutely nothing to say about Chavez and the fact that the Venezuelan people have elected him several times now. Fundamentalist christian right wing nuts like Robertson, and a few on this thread, seem to think that the U.S. has the right to dictate the direction of every nation on the planet.
Sometimes you hate something so much that you become the very thing you despise. Great evils have been done in the name of anti-communism and anti-socialism. What Pinochet, and other South American Fascist tyrants, did with the aid of the U.S. should never be forgotten and certainly never repeated.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
So now what you are proposing alek is that the USSR never had a currency?
[/quote]
No. I am asserting that since the USSR did not meet any of the criteria to be considered communist, they obviously weren’t.
No contest. I am not saying the USSR were the good guys. I am saying they, like the US, were only out for their interests, and were willing to do whatever it took to protect them. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so, maybe I’d do it too if I were president, I don’t know. But it certainly explains why everyone else hated these countries, and why wannabe dictators knew that all they had to do to come to power was align themselves with one of the two.
How do you know? Are you sure the people that claimed dislike for him and were imprisoned for it weren’t also consipiring against him? Right now, Chavez is proclaiming dislike of the US, and Pat Robertson wants him assassinated, how is that different, really?
It varies, from case to case. Some want freedom, some want money. Many are criminals, and I’ll tell you straight up, if you are convicted of a crime in Cuba, your life is over. You will be blacklisted and you will never find work again.
I never claimed it was great, I just said if you ask the people defecting to miami what Cuba is like, you’ll get a biased answer. I don’t see where the difficulty is in understanding this.
It would cripple the country’s economy.
[quote]
Why do cuban baseball players(i.e. Orlando Hernandez) defect while stateside? [/quote]
He’ll get paid much, much more in the US.
[quote]
More questions than answers. your literacy rate may be 99% but you can’t leave the country of your own free will. When was the last time a US citizen defected?[/quote]
I don’t see the relevance. I never said Cuba was better in the first place. I left for a reason, you know.
I loathe “scientific socialism.”
However, from a historical point of view, it is STILL inaccurate to label the “Soviet” (which means worker council, mind you) system communist. Communism is a very, very old idea that, as Aleks has repeatedly pointed out, only refers to an economic system where needs, not profits, are the goal of production. Dneiperstroy (sp?), Magnitigorsk (sp?), and the other wonders of the 5-Year plans simply don’t fit the definition. Killing Ukranian peasants who have already created communism (freely, mind you, without any form of secret police or government structure at all) in the name of communism also doesn’t fit the bill. If you hate totalitarian state control, say it. That’s cool. But there is a difference between communism and the USSR.
As hinted at above, communism doesn’t require force to make it happen. In the Ukraine from 1917-1921 there were highly effective agrarian communist experiments that were betrayed by Bolsheviks, cold blooded totalitarians. Read your history of the Civil War, Lenin decided to reinstitute aspects of capitalism.
Similarly, when Franco launched his coup in Spain in the 1930s, Catalonia embarked on a industrial libertarian communist experiment that was also betrayed by Stalinists. That said, its pretty fucking unlikely that most people would think critically on these issues. Afterall, the basic definitions of terms are so screwed up that critically evaluating anything is a futile endeavor.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think aleksander is speaking about Ideal Communism. Ideally communism is not bad. Just as Ideally a Democracy or a Republic would be superior to what we have today
He is talking about a Utopia that cannot exist.
It is the atheist version of debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.[/quote]
Do you consider Labor Unions or welfare to be communistic?
I want to come back to a really, really good point that Orion brought up earlier: if the Chavez government is letting the media bad-mouth him (in fact, the TV stations happily broadcast the military’s call for a coup!) and not doing anything about it, how bad of a dictator is he? If the Joint Chiefs went on all the major networks and announced a coup, I would think the major networks would get shut down. Whatever, he must be an anti-democratic maniac like those elected Sandinistas. Maybe we can train some Contras to rescue democracy from the voters!
Also, I wish our president had a ludicrous TV show like Chavez! Look into it…its hilarious!
[quote]battlelust wrote:
I want to come back to a really, really good point that Orion brought up earlier: if the Chavez government is letting the media bad-mouth him (in fact, the TV stations happily broadcast the military’s call for a coup!) and not doing anything about it, how bad of a dictator is he? If the Joint Chiefs went on all the major networks and announced a coup, I would think the major networks would get shut down. Whatever, he must be an anti-democratic maniac like those elected Sandinistas. Maybe we can train some Contras to rescue democracy from the voters!
Also, I wish our president had a ludicrous TV show like Chavez! Look into it…its hilarious! [/quote]
I would also like to repeat that, after the coup, he let the guys who did it walk away. No executions, not even prison. He let them continue their opposition. Fucking Bastard.
NEW TITLE: ALEKSANDR… DEFENDER OF DICTATORS AND DESPOTS ALIKE!!!
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Clark Call wrote:
I know this is difficult, but there are cultures out there besides yours. And just because you weren’t born into them doesn’t make them inferior. I also dislike totalitarian governments, but I am not christian. Does that make me a heathen? Am I amoral for not having the same culture and religion as you? Maybe you should set up a training camp, and you can teach people how to use rifles, make bombs, and take out subways. But when a person thinks like you, but is from another culture, you call them a terrorist.
The “direct source” is the “primary source”. The book you mentioned is what’s called a “secondary source” and is useless in this kind of an argument, due to how easy it is to skew things. For instance, if you say “X million people died under Stalin’s rule”, this number could easily include WWII casualties, making it useless to the current arguments. Fortunately, you have included the primary source for the numbers just now (soviet archives). Look to my prevous post as to why it’s not wise to trust this number.
I have never mentioned Mao, and I’m not sure why you would. What he said/did is even further from communism than what the USSR did (if that’s even possible). It was no accident China and the USSR weren’t friendly.
Again, I don’t see the relevance. But to clear things up, the USSR controlled every major road within days. Trying to control the wilder areas is what did them in. Let’s not forget that the US was backing the terrorists in afghanistan at the time, making things much more complicated than what you are trying to present. Additionally, the Northern Alliance did much of the fighting this time, not the US, so you really can’t make the comparison. And FYI, the northern alliance’s victory has resulted in afghanistan becoming one of the top opium producers again.
Why don’t you compare the USSR in Afghanistan to, say, the US in Vietnam instead?[/quote]
This thread is getting pretty hairy, I have never really gotten into a chest bumping match online, but have to admit it is kind of addictive.
Ok, When you begin to lose an argument, you have to start putting words in peoples mouths. Every good communist follows this rule, it seems to be universal. The little terrorist camp remark, murdering women and children is the mark or communists and fascists.
I noticed you didn’t answer the question I posed at the end of my last post. Why do you claim to be here in America, when you are from Cuba, with parents that are from the ex-USSR. Care to explain. I have to restate, you would never open your mouth with this bullshit in any normal public discussion. Only when you get online, behind the cover of computer do you have the nerve to defend the Soviet Union while you are living in the United States. Once again, don’t like it, get the hell out. Cuba is only 90 miles away, you can buy a little pontoon boat and be there in two hours. Back into the loving arms of Papa Castro.
As far as the Primary source, secondary source. You are a master at mincing words and using word trickery. A book is a primary source, don’t be so dense. If you can’t read, you should just admit it, not try to change the rules of the game. The Black Book is very specific in attempting to distinguish between those killed in WWII and those killed during the many purges both before and after the war. I am sure there is some give or take, but this is the most widely accepted account of the horrors of communism available today.
US in Vietnam, completely different conflict, than the USSR “invading” Afghanistan. We were attempting to stem the tide of communism and were in effect fighting 2 different countries, North Vietnam and China. We were not there to subjugate the people and make them our vassals, which was the case in Afghanistan. Besides, Vietnam is a backwater hell hole for the most part. 1.5 million south vietnamese executed following the American pullout.
You are like the guy that argues in favor of North Korea. Ever been to South Korea, that country exists because we stepped up and killed the commie rats that were going to destroy the economy and subjugate the people. The north koreans starve to death, even with Chinese and international aid. Now thats a political system! At least there is equality right, everybody starves to death.
The USSR and China weren’t friendly because they were lead by megalomaniacs that yearned for power and death. This is not due to some difference in ideology, the were one in the same.
For an “authority figure” with a wide audience to call for an ASSASSINATION is not exercising freedom of speech.
If a 6th grade teacher told his class that it was OK for the little boys to fondle his genitals at recess as long as their parents didn’t find out, he would not be exercising his “freedom of speech”.
If a preist tells an alter boy to get naked and touch himself for his entertainment, he is not exercising his “freedom of speech”.
If I phone somebody from work and tell them I am going to murder them, I am not exercising my “freedom of speech”.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
buffballswell wrote:
What the hell is this jerk-off thinking, publicly calling for the assassination of Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez. For those not in the know, Venezuela happens to be one of the nations top importers of crude oil, and with gas prices approaching
wallet exploding prices, this has to be one of the most deep-fried and stupified public statements made in recent history.
So, I hereby call for the assassination of
Pat Robertson. Two in the chest one the head, Retard. Your thoughts please.
Wow, so much for freedom of speech huh?
[/quote]
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
If that someone is a fascist, a communist or a fanatic muslim really doesn?t matter to me.
…
It matters to me. All of these ideologies are evil. All should be resisted.
[/quote]
Absolutely agreed. However, there’s a very, very large difference between resisting and persecuting. And that’s orion’s point – and mine, for that matter.
“Freedom” is a little bit of an overstatement. Billion dollar marketing campaigns and lobbiests working to tune laws and regulations in their clients favors manipulates the purity of supply and demand. Think about the recent steroid scandals and how effectively that is putting ideas in people’s heads. You can effectively control what people desire or despise, i.e. create demand through your advertising budget and strategies. Instead of a questionable set of government practises controlling who produces what, you have a set of practises designed to manipulate the consumer through commecial TV, print ads, product placement, and the faux-journalism that we like to complain about in some other muscle publications.
You can try to argue that the consumer is “free” to ignore it and be consciously unfashionable, but realistically this is not what happens. You end up “subservient” to the person with the highest budget or cleverest think tank.
The inevitable product of “freedom” appears to be such charming side effects as big box stores that have a deterimental effect on local culture and economy, employ overseas slave labor to hack together their wares, and so on. A little regulation here and there can keep the world a happier prettier place.
Please note, a lot of successful “free market” capitalism was secretly the result of protectionism and tight government control. The reality does not fully live up to the hype.
I’m still a capitalist, but I do not believe you can trust the market to make the right decisions without some intelligent oversight.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Capitalism = less government control = freedom.
Communism = more government control = subservience.
[/quote]
[quote]Clark Call wrote:
This thread is getting pretty hairy, I have never really gotten into a chest bumping match online, but have to admit it is kind of addictive.
Ok, When you begin to lose an argument, you have to start putting words in peoples mouths. Every good communist follows this rule, it seems to be universal. The little terrorist camp remark, murdering women and children is the mark or communists and fascists.
[/quote]
The terrorist remark is in response to your murderous brand of “freedom”, where everyone has the right to think just like you. You said it, murdering people who disagree is what makes america great. I’m simply suggesting you get organized about it.
I couldn’t find your question, but I last time you alluded to me being in the US, I called you arrogant for assuming everyone is in the US. I am not, and have no interest in visiting. I live in Canada. The most proximate cause is a war that broke out in my mother’s country during the break up of the USSR. Like I said before, however, my family left because we didn’t like the Cuban government. I am no fan of Castro, Cuba’s economic or political system, or that of the USSR. I think I’ve made this pretty clear throughout this thread.
Actually, I have no problem talking about this openly. It’s funny, I get this a lot on the internet, and whenever someone that knows me sees it, they laugh. And I am not defending the USSR, that would be as stupid as defending the US. You really seem to have trouble thinking of the world as more complicated than good vs bad, huh?
Well, I’ve already dealt with this, but I’ll add that your constitution allows people to have whatever beliefs they choose. Your attitude is unconstitutional. If you aren’t going to uphold the constitution, maybe YOU should get out.
Yep. Trickery. I’m also a witch.
I’m at a loss here. I’ll do you a favour, and explainthe difference between a primary and secondary source. First, you said a book is a primary source: the medium does not determine the content, a book can be either. In this case, the book (according to you) is based on info obtained from soviet archives. Those archives are likely the primary source, unless they were based on other research. The book, based on the primary source, is then a secondary source. Calling me dense when you are so obviously wrong make you foolish.
Like I said before, there is good reason to believe the soviet archives were biased. It is widely accepted, but that doesn’t mean it’s true, and it really doesn’t help that there is no one around to do the contesting.
China? How does china come into the picture? North Vietnam was backed by the USSR; the vietnamese hated the Chinese more than they hated the americans. Further, although the US thought it was to stop “communism”, the only reason Vietnam turned to the USSR was to protect itself from being recolonized. It viewed the US as an invading force trying to subjugate, and saw the USSR as the lesser evil.
I like how you put quotation marks around invasion; I’ll assume you are aware that the USSR entered at the request of the Afghani government. Sure it was a puppet regime, and the soviets were trying to secure their interests in the area, but then so was the US.
The Vietnamese saw it very differently, it seems. Why do you think they fought so hard? Once again, you are able to understand your point of view, but can’t see the other side at all.
Relevance? Are you saying Vietnam is a shithole so it doesn’t matter? Pretty offfensive, if you ask me. They deserved their freedom as much as anyone else, and they were willing to fight to the last man for it.
Relevance. You seem to be taking us on a safari here. I am not like the guy that defends North Korea, because I know nothing about it.
Jesus. You are right, they had the exact same ideology. The fact that the USSR had a model based on the working class and the Chinese model was based on the peasant class made no difference whatsoever.
I seriously can’t believe anyone can have such a profound lack of knowledge about the world around them, and history.
[quote]John K wrote:
For an “authority figure” with a wide audience to call for an ASSASSINATION is not exercising freedom of speech.
If a 6th grade teacher told his class that it was OK for the little boys to fondle his genitals at recess as long as their parents didn’t find out, he would not be exercising his “freedom of speech”.
If a preist tells an alter boy to get naked and touch himself for his entertainment, he is not exercising his “freedom of speech”.
If I phone somebody from work and tell them I am going to murder them, I am not exercising my “freedom of speech”.
[/quote]
First, who ever called Pat Robertson an authority figure?
Second, his audence isn’t children.
Third, he didn’t say he was going to murder anybody, he was expressing his opinion that the gov’t should do it. Which is certainly free speech.
You’re really stretching for that one.
One thing that I find interesting about this thread is that it started with discussing two specific leaders and quickly digressed into discussing ideologies.
I believe it’s time to remind everyone that those are two different things.
People label themselves with certain ideologies so they can “fit in”. Many times they distort them to the point of them being unrecognizable. Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian, but I’m pretty sure that there are many people out there who would agree he’s not doing a very good job at following the ideology.
My point is that Stalin and Castro are the Osama Bin Laden and the Pat Robertson of Communism. That doesn’t mean Communism is Good – I never said that, nor I think that. It does mean that the fact that Stalin was possibly the worst dictator of all times – worse than Hitler, mainly because he was much smarter and had much more time to do even greater damage, the extent of which we will NEVER really know – doesn’t mean Communism is as bad as he was. Castro is, you have to admit, substantially less evil – at least these days – but not exactly a sane person. Does that mean all Communists are evil and/or insane? Not necessarily. They might be, but it is not the fact that Castro is that proves they all are – much like the fact that Pat Robertson is a raving, hypocritical idiot doesn’t mean all Christians are.
Which is quite fortunate, since my wife (as virtually all Brazilians) is a Christian, and I’d hate to have a raving hypocritical wife.
I’ve also met several communists in Europe and consider some of them as friends – which also says a lot about them, since they do know not only I’m a Capitalist, I actually contribute actively to help maintain and improve a Capitalist economy! If they were so evil and/or retarded, would they even talk to me?
And, before anyone says it, I’ll say it: yes, I am comparing Communism to Christianity. Why? Because they have a lot in common, if you really look at them. If you can’t see it, there are some obvious things you can’t miss: a) They both had horrendous atrocities done in their name (Stalin’s USSR looked a lot like Europe’s Dark Ages to me…) b) They both require faith that is strong enough to survive mounds of evidence against it c) They both have a certain poetic, albeit unrealistic, side to them and d) I don’t really buy either of them.
[quote]hspder wrote:
My point is that Stalin and Castro are the Osama Bin Laden and the Pat Robertson of Communism. That doesn’t mean Communism is Good – I never said that, nor I think that.
[/quote]
To be fair, I don’t think Castro ever claimed Cuba was communist (unless he’s done it in the last few years, which I doubt. It was always understood we were working towards communism.
ALEK what is this we crap? are you russian or cuban? Do you live in canada as you claim? Or are you like most other American liberals, in that you hate yourself so much for being American and a successful country and form of government for over 200 years that you can’t claim to be a US citizen.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
ALEK what is this we crap? are you russian or cuban? Do you live in canada as you claim? Or are you like most other American liberals, in that you hate yourself so much for being American and a successful country and form of government for over 200 years that you can’t claim to be a US citizen.[/quote]
I have already explained several times, including a few in this thread. I was a Soviet citizen. I still am a Cuban citizen, as well as a Canadian citizen. But way to take the high road and not take the cheap shot at american liberals.
Ok, I am done with this one, I know I said I was bowing out before. This arguing about the evil of communism and the murders of the Soviet Union and other regimes is pointless when you are doing so with a Soviet-Cuban that loves totalitarianism yet lives in Canada because he couldn’t stand living in Cuba.
Bro, you make absolutely no sense. Simply put, you obviously like to have your cake and eat it too, just like every other commie in the US, Canada and Europe. You love the fruits of the free-market, but can’t wait to bash it when you are in a debate. Simply put, you love capitalism like OJ loved Nicole. I know your type, you sit around in cafes, smoking and not working, talking about the wonders of the workers state. When presented with the facts regarding the atrocities commited by those who attempted to implement this type of government, you downplay them. Or you claim that it was because they were imperfect leaders, if only the working man had a leader as smart and benevolent such as yourself. It must be the drugs because you are living in a fantasy world.
Thought I would share a heartwarming story of commie bashing to close my appearance. I attend a rather liberalfascist university (aren’t they all?). Last spring I was walking on campus with a friend that had just returned from Iraq, he was in uniform because he is attending school following his four year enlistment. As we are walking somebody yells out,“Baby killer”. Some bitch and a couple of guys are sitting on this wall, got the balls to yell some insane epithet.
I know my friend isn’t going to say anything, but that was direct challenge in my book. I turn around and ask, “what did you say?”, the chick says, “he’s a baby killer and you are co-conspirator in a terrorist organization”. I got a little flustered and said,“Youre a piece of excrement, get the hell out of my country commie whore.” One of the guys gets up and acts like he has a problem with that, “Don’t tell me you are banging this heifer” I say. He gets up in my face, but I can tell he is scared, I am 6’3", 235, I can tear him up it comes down to it. I pushed him back, he swings, I duck, I stick him with a left jab and a right hook right to the nose. Broke his nose, he looks like he is going to cry, blood streaming down his face. I turn to his girlfriend and say, “Shut your mouth next time, people need to stand up to your bullshit, just because you are female doesn’t mean you can say whatever you want.”
Kind of warms your heart, I thought commies were all about peace. I have some great hippie asskicking stories I will have to share sometime.