[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
The corporate/state quells it’s citizens through that system of lies.
LOL~!
You included
I’m a corporate guy lying to the masses? LOL!
No Zeb, you’re just a victim of propaganda. It is you who is being deliberately lied to.
[/quote]
Could be, but then again it could be you who is being lied to!
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Yea! DOWN WITH THE USA! WE SUCK! LOL I love this thread…
No we should just apply the same set of morals to ourselves and friends as we do to others.[/quote]
That would be putting wacko muslim zealots on this same level…no thanks!
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Okay. Let’s take an example of U.S. responsibility of genocide by proxy.
In 1975 East Timor was invaded by Indonesia. Ford and Kissenger were in Jakarta on dec. 5th. They asked Indonesia not to invade until they left because it would be too embarassing. On the 7th Indonesia invaded. For weeks they just indiscriminately slaughtered people.
Jose Ramos-Horta was the East timor representative to the U.N. He pleaded to the U.N. to do something about the acts of mureder. The U.N. reponded - like it usually does - with condemnation and sanctions. Eventually there were various watered down resolutions passed but the U.S. was clearly not going to let anything work.
Here is a quote from Daniel Patrick Moynihan(the U.S. representative) “The State Department desired that the U.N. prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook. This task was given to me and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success.”
The Timorese fleed into the jungle by the thousands and the Indonesians set-up recieving camps for those who were waiving white flags. Those who were though to be part of the resistence or educated were killed. Some women were took by helicopter for use by the Indonesian army. They killed children and babies. However, their main strategy was stravation. By 78’ the church and other sources estimated 200,000 dead. And the U.S. backed it all the way. We provided about 90% of the arms. In 78’ they started to run out of weapons so the Carter Administration moved in and increased arms sales. Other countries were involved. Anyone who could make a buck was in there making sure Indonesia could kill more Timorese.
When the genocide reached it’s highest levels in 77’ 78’ the news coverage fell to zero. Before this there was hardly any coverage. And when it was covered it was from the point of view from the State Department or Indonesian generals. Never from a Timorese.
But at the same time the mass media spent an exhaustive time covering the genocide committed by Pol Pot.
You see there is no Western concern for atrocities, human rights abuses or aggresion if there is a profit to be made from them. Only from offical enemies does this country publicize the abuses.
It’s all part of the propaganda system done by government and corporations.
Relating more to the original post Venezuala sits on the most massive oil reserves outside the mid-east.
Wouldn’t the blame for this fall on Indonesian President Suharto? Or is every bad thing any of our allies have ever done the fault of the US?
[/quote]
Should this country not be held accontable for putting Suharto in office and supplying him with 90% of the weaponry to carry out genocide?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Yea! DOWN WITH THE USA! WE SUCK! LOL I love this thread…
No we should just apply the same set of morals to ourselves and friends as we do to others.
That would be putting wacko muslim zealots on this same level…no thanks![/quote]
You say wacko muslim zealots. What about everyone else? Please explain to me why we shouldn’t apply the same morals to ourselves as we do to others?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
The corporate/state quells it’s citizens through that system of lies.
LOL~!
You included
I’m a corporate guy lying to the masses? LOL!
No Zeb, you’re just a victim of propaganda. It is you who is being deliberately lied to.
Could be, but then again it could be you who is being lied to! [/quote]
I’m not going to kid myself into thinking that everything I read is gospel truth but I do know enough now about the propaganda system here in this country. And that does put you alot closer to the truth. When I think back on the things and people I once believed in I do so with a mixed emotions. On one hand I’m personally embarassed and on the other I’m angry at those who manipulated me. But I’m working to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
I’m not going to kid myself into thinking that everything I read is gospel truth but I do know enough now about the propaganda system here in this country. And that does put you alot closer to the truth. When I think back on the things and people I once believed in I do so with a mixed emotions. On one hand I’m personally embarassed and on the other I’m angry at those who manipulated me. But I’m working to make sure it doesn’t happen again.[/quote]
Are trying to say that “CNN LIES?”
(Can’t argue with that)
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Should this country not be held accontable for putting Suharto in office and supplying him with 90% of the weaponry to carry out genocide?[/quote]
If Suharto commited genocide, then Suharto is responsible. If American troops carried out genocide, then America would be responsible. We sold him arms because he was our ally, and a neighboring country was undergoing a communist uprising. He bears the responsibility for what he did with said weapons.
Reddog,
That’s a great way to look at the world. It means you never have to take any responsibility for anything.
I’m going to give everyone in your neighborhood machine guns for christmas. If anyone gets shot after that, especially kids or old folks, it’s only because the guns were misused.
It certainly wouldn’t be any fault of mine.
With your logic I’m also thinking of getting into the drug trade. I’ll sell crack to pushers. Hell, it’s only their misuse of the crack by giving it to others that’s a problem. It certainly wouldn’t be any repsonsibility of mine would it?
Or, wait, maybe I’ll make a hundred copies of the key to your home, then mail them to everyone on your block. Hey, if you get ripped off, it’s not like I had anything to do with it. That would simply be poor decisionmaking by those that received the keys.
Maybe, just maybe, we should sometimes look at the misdeeds that others are able to commit because of our own actions? Nah, screw that, I like your thinking better…
[quote]vroom wrote:
Reddog,
That’s a great way to look at the world. It means you never have to take any responsibility for anything.[/quote]
Yes, we have to take responsibility for our own actions [quote]
I’m going to give everyone in your neighborhood machine guns for christmas. If anyone gets shot after that, especially kids or old folks, it’s only because the guns were misused.
It certainly wouldn’t be any fault of mine.[/quote]
I agree. The person who pulls the trigger is the responsible party [quote]
With your logic I’m also thinking of getting into the drug trade. I’ll sell crack to pushers. Hell, it’s only their misuse of the crack by giving it to others that’s a problem. It certainly wouldn’t be any repsonsibility of mine would it?[/quote]
Except for the fact that crack is addictive, I don’t think guns generally are. Poor analogy. [quote]
Or, wait, maybe I’ll make a hundred copies of the key to your home, then mail them to everyone on your block. Hey, if you get ripped off, it’s not like I had anything to do with it. That would simply be poor decisionmaking by those that received the keys.[/quote]
Another poor analogy, as you would have to obtain the key to my house through illegal means. [quote]
Maybe, just maybe, we should sometimes look at the misdeeds that others are able to commit because of our own actions? Nah, screw that, I like your thinking better…[/quote]
I won’t argue that our gov’t has backed some rather shitty people who have done some terrible things. Does that make us responsible for their deeds? No. IMO the whole idea of “murder by proxy” is an “I-hate-America” load of crap.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
I’m not going to kid myself into thinking that everything I read is gospel truth but I do know enough now about the propaganda system here in this country. And that does put you alot closer to the truth. When I think back on the things and people I once believed in I do so with a mixed emotions. On one hand I’m personally embarassed and on the other I’m angry at those who manipulated me. But I’m working to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Are trying to say that “CNN LIES?”
(Can’t argue with that)[/quote]
Yes. But so does Fox, Limbaugh, NY Times, and the rest of the corporate media.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Should this country not be held accontable for putting Suharto in office and supplying him with 90% of the weaponry to carry out genocide?
If Suharto commited genocide, then Suharto is responsible. If American troops carried out genocide, then America would be responsible. We sold him arms because he was our ally, and a neighboring country was undergoing a communist uprising. He bears the responsibility for what he did with said weapons. [/quote]
So genocide is okay as long as you don’t pull the trigger. You see nothing wrong with profiterring on the deaths of thousands as long as someone else fires the shots. Sad reasoning indeed! With this type of mentality is it any wonder why so many across the globe hate the U.S. ? And your reply says nothing of the massive difference in news coverage between the two accounts of genocide.
There was a civil war which broke out in 1975 and Fretelin won. He was catholic in character but on the left. Indonesia at once began to intervene. And then came the slaughter. There was absolutly no threat coming from East Timor and to suggest so shows complete ignorance on your part. Do you know anything about the country? Well, obviously not.
Reddog,
If you want to be able to sleep at night, I think you need to look a little further than that.
People, of whatever nationality, deserve a slightly higher standard of care than that. It’s only my opinion, but I don’t think it is right to go around laying the seeds for death and destruction whether by intent or by accident.
I am not saying that we should accept responsibility for the actions of others, but that we should at least attempt to foresee probable outcomes.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
So genocide is okay as long as you don’t pull the trigger. You see nothing wrong with profiterring on the deaths of thousands as long as someone else fires the shots. Sad reasoning indeed! With this type of mentality is it any wonder why so many across the globe hate the U.S. ? And your reply says nothing of the massive difference in news coverage between the two accounts of genocide.
There was a civil war which broke out in 1975 and Fretelin won. He was catholic in character but on the left. Indonesia at once began to intervene. And then came the slaughter. There was absolutly no threat coming from East Timor and to suggest so shows complete ignorance on your part. Do you know anything about the country? Well, obviously not.
[/quote]
Your claim was that this is an example of America being guilty of genocide. My point is that you are full of crap. Suharto alone was guilty of genocide.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
You know you are right about that. Everyone puts their own little slant on the truth. [/quote]
From now on I am only going to listen to you Zeppelin! By the way where do you get your information?
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
So genocide is okay as long as you don’t pull the trigger. You see nothing wrong with profiterring on the deaths of thousands as long as someone else fires the shots. Sad reasoning indeed! With this type of mentality is it any wonder why so many across the globe hate the U.S. ? And your reply says nothing of the massive difference in news coverage between the two accounts of genocide.
There was a civil war which broke out in 1975 and Fretelin won. He was catholic in character but on the left. Indonesia at once began to intervene. And then came the slaughter. There was absolutly no threat coming from East Timor and to suggest so shows complete ignorance on your part. Do you know anything about the country? Well, obviously not.
Your claim was that this is an example of America being guilty of genocide. My point is that you are full of crap. Suharto alone was guilty of genocide. [/quote]
Ahhh we aided and abetted the genocide which we could have stopped. But the U.S.; hungry for power and money made sure nothing happened during the U.N. convention.
Your position that we had nothing to do with the genocide because we didn’t pull the trigger would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. But you have no recourse in this arguement so you have to dodge the facts in order to make yourself feel you are right. You know inside that it was wrong but this would make you re-examine your political beliefs and that proves too much for you. It’s easier to pretend this country isn’t culpable and then just go on with your life.
And you fail to answer my question on the difference in news coverage.
And by the way this has nothing to do with the political left or right. It has to do with right and wrong.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Ahhh we aided and abetted the genocide which we could have stopped. But the U.S.; hungry for power and money made sure nothing happened during the U.N. convention.
Your position that we had nothing to do with the genocide because we didn’t pull the trigger would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. But you have no recourse in this arguement so you have to dodge the facts in order to make yourself feel you are right. You know inside that it was wrong but this would make you re-examine your political beliefs and that proves too much for you. It’s easier to pretend this country isn’t culpable and then just go on with your life.
And you fail to answer my question on the difference in news coverage.
And by the way this has nothing to do with the political left or right. It has to do with right and wrong.[/quote]
So now your claim is that we aren’t guilty of genocide, but only aiding & abettiing? Or is it that we could have stopped it, but didn’t? When you get your accusations where you want them, let me know.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
You know you are right about that. Everyone puts their own little slant on the truth.
From now on I am only going to listen to you Zeppelin! By the way where do you get your information?
[/quote]
It’s not about listening to me but checking it out for yourself. And it’s more than just a personal spin that Fox, CNN, limbaugh, etc. carry out. It is a purposeful manipulation of the facts to keep the public from knowing the truth.
Check out non-corporate news sources. Even foreign news, as it isn’t as beholden to American corporate power.
Then compare them to what you find in the corporate mass media.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Ahhh we aided and abetted the genocide which we could have stopped. But the U.S.; hungry for power and money made sure nothing happened during the U.N. convention.
Your position that we had nothing to do with the genocide because we didn’t pull the trigger would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. But you have no recourse in this arguement so you have to dodge the facts in order to make yourself feel you are right. You know inside that it was wrong but this would make you re-examine your political beliefs and that proves too much for you. It’s easier to pretend this country isn’t culpable and then just go on with your life.
And you fail to answer my question on the difference in news coverage.
And by the way this has nothing to do with the political left or right. It has to do with right and wrong.
So now your claim is that we aren’t guilty of genocide, but only aiding & abettiing? Or is it that we could have stopped it, but didn’t? When you get your accusations where you want them, let me know.[/quote]
I have never changed my claims during this exchange. I simply gave an example of U.S. culpability in genocide. I said in the begining this country had been involved in mass murdering directly and indirectly.
Yes we could have stopped the slaughter simply by letting the U.N. do it’s job. We could have stopped selling them arms that were used to commit the horrendous acts of violence against the people of East Timor. But we didn’t, knowing full well what was going on. We could have withdrawled our support for him. And we are the ones who supported that genocidist and help put him in power. There are plenty of things that could’ve been done but then again all that money and power couldn’t have been made by U.S. gov. and corporations.
But these are inconvenient facts for your political persuasion so you discard them instead.
And again where was the press in this devastating issue?
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Okay. Let’s take an example of U.S. responsibility of genocide by proxy.
In 1975 East Timor was invaded by Indonesia. Ford and Kissenger were in Jakarta on dec. 5th. They asked Indonesia not to invade until they left because it would be too embarassing. On the 7th Indonesia invaded. For weeks they just indiscriminately slaughtered people.
[/quote]
Proxy n., 1)The authority to act for another 2)a person empowered to act on behalf for another.
Did Suharto act with the authority of the US government? No. Was he acting on our behalf? No. Therefore your “genocide by proxy” claim is bullshit.
Has our gov’t supported some unsavory foreign leaders? Yes. In case you didn’t know, Geopolotics is dirty business. I’m sorry the world isn’t Utopia. Sometimes you are forced to choose the lesser of two evils, that is still indeed evil. Should our gov’t be held accountable for what it has done? Yes, as long as it is reviewed through the same lens as when it occured. But folks like you screaming “America committed genocide!” because of what Suharto did, or because the Contras took an eye for an eye, or Iraqi civilians have died, doesn’t really help the debate.
Truly sad.