[quote]lixy wrote:
Police have baton-charged a rally by Pakistani lawyers protesting outside the High Court in Karachi against the state of emergency, lawyers say.
[/quote]
I think lawyers everywhere, for the most part, should be baton-charged.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
How many functioning democracies/republics are in the Middle East anyway? Oh, our beloved Iran has one — as long as a candidate passes muster from the Islamic Council. Maybe Egypt, where Mubarek’s son will soon be ‘President’? Pakistan? No. Hmmm…it seems the only ones outside of Israel are Iraq and Afghanistan.
Lebanon? Palestine?[/quote]
Are you serious? With Iran and Syria murdering opposing politicians?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you serious? With Iran and Syria murdering opposing politicians?[/quote]
Iran and Syria are murdering people or are you mistaking it for individuals who happen to be of Iranian and Syrian origin? It is impossible for a country to carry out any action.
Many Americans have murdered people in other countries does that mean America is a murderous nation?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you serious? With Iran and Syria murdering opposing politicians?
Iran and Syria are murdering people or are you mistaking it for individuals who happen to be of Iranian and Syrian origin? It is impossible for a country to carry out any action.
Many Americans have murdered people in other countries does that mean America is a murderous nation?[/quote]
iran and Syria are sponsoring terrorist organizations and likely directly ordering them to kill opposing politicians. It kind of puts a crimp on democracy.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
iran and Syria are sponsoring terrorist organizations and likely directly ordering them to kill opposing politicians. It kind of puts a crimp on democracy.[/quote]
A democracy is a place where the will of the people is represented. Lebanon and Palestine fit the description in my book.
The allegations that Syria is behind the murders in Lebanon hasn’t been substantiated by much. The fact that you and me think Damascus is behind those acts is irrelevant in the absence of evidence. Anyway, I don’t see why you dragged Iran into the mix. Surely you can’t be accusing them of killing Lebanese and Palestinians representatives without a shred of proof. A bigger threat to democracy in Lebanon and Palestine is…you guessed it: Israel. But it doesn’t make them any less democratic. In fact, the assassinations are a credit to the functioning democracies in those places. People still find courage to run for office and vote in proportions that kinda put many countries to shame.
That Aristide was overthrown does not make Haiti un-democratic. That Ortega or Chavez fear for their lives isn’t either. Just because some bullying power kills politicians of another country does not make the latter any less democratic.
Now please stop hijacking this thread. It’s about shut down TV stations, judges under arrest, jammed phone networks, and beat up protesters.
[quote]lixy wrote:
…
Now please stop hijacking this thread. It’s about shut down TV stations, judges under arrest, jammed phone networks, and beat up protesters.[/quote]
Hijacking? I will refrain from the obvious joke and point out that you introduced Palestine and Lebanon to the discussion.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Hijacking? I will refrain from the obvious joke…[/quote]
But we are all thinking it and chuckling.
Democracy? The more I look at the behavior of people in the middle east the less I think democracy is a good thing. I think they like a good dictatorship. You start giving them choices and they get all violent.
There is nothing w can do about the Pakistani situation. To think we have a say so in the matter is arrogant. What is clear is that the way the government is structured now is not the way it will be in the next few days and weeks.
I do see a silver lining to all this. It is clear we cannot count on the Pakistani military or government to extricate the al kayduh and taliban out of the tribal region.
Sounds like a good opportunity to go in ourselves and take care of bin laden and his ladies ourselves. Time to line up on the border and prepare to take care of the issue we should have taken care of 5 years ago, get bin laden.
No I do not support an invasion of pakistan, just kill off al queada and leave.
Perhaps India will sieze the opportunity to settle some scores.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Sounds like a good opportunity to go in ourselves and take care of bin laden and his ladies ourselves. [/quote]
More than six years too late. But hey, if they had as much oil as Iraq, you’d have been there in an eyeblink.
Oh yeah, because Islamists are much more concerned with liberty and human rights. They’re also much more willing to hand over the country to a non-islamist democracy.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Sounds like a good opportunity to go in ourselves and take care of bin laden and his ladies ourselves.
More than six years too late. But hey, if they had as much oil as Iraq, you’d have been there in an eyeblink.[/quote]
Doubt it…We already had Iraq’s oil and far cheaper then we have it now. We don’t go to war over oil because it drives the price up. The only countries who want higher oil prices tend to be the enemies of the US. If we wanted more oil, we’d invade Alaska.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
While the dumb asses of our nation get ready to invade the still stable, might get a nuke sometime maybe nation of Iran, a nation that already HAS nuclear capability has become so chaotic, it’s government has declared a state of national emergency.
" The Supreme Court declared the state of emergency illegal, claiming Musharraf had no power to suspend the constitution, Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry told CNN.
A senior Pakistani official told CNN that the emergency declaration will be “short-lived,” and will be followed by an interim government. Martial law is a way to restore law and order, he said.
Shortly afterward, Chaudhry was expelled as chief justice, his office told CNN. Troops came to Chaudhry’s office to tell him."
So as we get ready to go slam Iran, Pakistan is falling the hell apart. We need to do something; Pakistan is where the terrorists actually are, after all. What do you say, war hawks of T-Nation? Is it time to mobilize towards Islamabad? Or should we start doing some heavy duty negotiation handling?
Comments? Thoughts?[/quote]
You know, you make an interesting argument. You’re arguing that we must militarily step in to keep a fundamentalist, terrorist supporting, Islamic regime from gaining control of nuclear weapons? Well, that regime is already in place in Iran. So, let’s say they do build their first nuke (which they will). Your position will be the same?
Musharraf is actually a very smart man.
On one hand, he has the extremists. The followers of leaders (who in most cases, have never been to school) that play on emotions, preaching religion, while their motives are purely political. They use the guise of Religion to control the masses. I say wipe them out. If I were Musharaff, I would have BOMBED the red mosque (and I’m muslim too!)Extremists have no right forcing their view of religion on everyone else, you’ll find, most Pakistanis are moderate Sunni or (less often) Shi’te (Shia) muslims, they do not support terrorism, these are the people, that Musharraf best represents.
On other hand, he has the USA. This country is pushing a policy that many of its own people, let alone the rest of the people in the world, do not agree with. He is somewhat compliant of their demands, however (And the US of A knows it) he is in NO WAY compelled. He humors the USA, at the end of the day, he can do what he want and he has the backing to do it.
Those of you saying “Just invade Pakistan” have got to be joking. This isn’t Iraq, Afghanistan or Lebanon. Pakistan have a strong army, strong military resources and more importantly, nuclear weapons. Any potential war would be a bloodbath.
Yes the country is unstable, but who would do a better job governing it? Not Bhutto, Not the extremists and sure as hell not the US. Musharraf is the man for the job.
WIP, why not Bhutto? What would happen if Musharraf goes down and the Extremists take over? What then? Do you agree with Lixy that an Islamist form of government would be opposed to terrorism and al-qaeda. He seems to think they would. I’d like to hear an opinion from another source on this.
Thanks.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
WIP, why not Bhutto? What would happen if Musharraf goes down and the Extremists take over? What then? Do you agree with Lixy that an Islamist form of government would be opposed to terrorism and al-qaeda. He seems to think they would. I’d like to hear an opinion from another source on this.
Thanks.[/quote]
Bhutto to many Pakistanis is the representation of corruption. Her previous government was riddled with corruption (I know, all Pakistani governments have had corruption issues.) The country did not progress at all under her control. Well, one could now argue the same for Musharraf, but, if you look past the recent crisis, Pakistan has done well under him. He has managed to control extremism to an extent as well keeping the west happy.
I do not agree with Lixy, and Islamist form of government would not work well in Pakistan. Firstly, what sort of government would it be, Sunni, Shia, Wahabbi? Pakistan has the same religious sects as Iraq although there is less tension between them (recently anyway.) A Islamist government in THEORY could work, but I can see issues in practise. Another key point is the status of the Army in Pakistan, make no mistake, it has a HUGE backing. Much of the population is involved in the army and the army will support its leader. The conflict arises when civilians challange the army (i.e Lawyers protesting etc.)
I believe that Musharaff is doing the best to keep the country stable at the moment, it is clear, that the recent High Court has been Ãnfluenced’ taking an anti-Musharaff stance. A governement without the backing of the HC is a goverment in strife (Sure, the seperation of powers theory exists, but in reality, there is great overlap between the government and the high court, in most countries, the high court is selected by the party in power.)
Everything will settle down soon enough.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Do you agree with Lixy that an Islamist form of government would be opposed to terrorism and al-qaeda. [/quote]
I doubt we’re on the same page here. I support whatever form of government the Pakistanis want for themselves. You know, that thing they call democracy…
I have absolutely no doubt that if the will of the majority is represented, the government will be naturally opposed to Al-Qaeda and co.
A question to you now: what do you think of Pakistani troops storming newspapers and TV stations? There has been a total media blackout on the Hertzian spectrum for over a week now. I can remember you have been a vocal critic of the non-renewal of RCTV’s license by the Chavez government, despite its unequivocal role in the 2002 coup against the democratically elected regime. Before you answer that, let me remind you that Chavez is orders of magnitude more legitimate than Musharraf.
[quote]lixy wrote:
A question to you now: what do you think of Pakistani troops storming newspapers and TV stations? There has been a total media blackout on the Hertzian spectrum for over a week now. I can remember you have been a vocal critic of the non-renewal of RCTV’s license by the Chavez government, despite its unequivocal role in the 2002 coup against the democratically elected regime. Before you answer that, let me remind you that Chavez is orders of magnitude more legitimate than Musharraf.[/quote]
I do not support Musharraf in this current situation in Pakistan. He may have busted up the Red Mosque siege, but how is rounding up political opponents and moderates a good thing? My fear is the extremists will use this fortify their power.
I would support Musharaaf more if he used the money he got from the US to modernize his army, move into Waziristan with overwhelming military force and defeat al-qaeda.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
My fear is the extremists will use this fortify their power. [/quote]
“The extremists need a dictatorship, and dictatorship needs extremists.” – B. Bhutto
Well, if you had any brains, you would have done the sensible thing and gone there yourselves instead of getting entangled in Iraq which represented no threat to you.