Lot’s of differing opinions on if it works or not. See the link below.
War isn’t nice and tidy. You shouldn’t prepare for war by deciding what isn’t acceptable to your enemy. That’s a modern misconception.
Mercy and sanctuary are granted for good behavior by the enemy and should not be considered a right.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If our soldiers are being tortured and killed, usually just for being Americans, why can’t we use mild forms of torture (loud music, cold water, etc) to get real intel?
Since terrorists obey no rules, we’re fools to nitpik over this. Clearly define what our interrogators may do, then do it. The vermin won’t follow ANY decent rules anyway.
If torture doesn’t work and in the end cost americans more lives…then why in the hell would you do it?
what’s nitpicking to you could very well be US civilian or military loss of life.
Of course you don’t care, I know, but still alot of us do.
[/quote]
(A) How do know that Americans lose their lives through our ‘torturing’ terrorists?
(B) Could lives have been saved of which you are unaware, because it doesn’t get publicity when our guys extract info from some scumbag that prevents a terrorist attack?
(C) Do you fight evil by going after it or by being Mr. Happy-Sappy Cuddlebear, who’d never swat a fly?
Sheeeessshhhhh!!!
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.
What if torture kills five innocent men?
Then it is not torture - it is murder. How is having a bunch of terrorists sleeping in dogshit going to kill anyone? Pig fat dripping from the ceiling is hardly fatal.
Right. And what happens when someone takes extreme offense to sleeping in dog shit and we create generations of rebels against what is going on? Be sure to tell your future grandchildren that the wars they will be fighting stemmed from something that was “hardly fatal”.
In torture, if you don’t fear the loss of life or fatal injury, it isn’t really torture. Even if it is mind play, if you believe it is no big deal, I can only imagine the stress in your life has been relatively minor up to this point.
But clearly, those who think like you have downplayed this to the point that you actually walk around believing that the most captured prisoners are dealing with is a minor inconvenience…like maybe they leave the lights on so they can’t sleep well.
Or…or maybe the get a big chalk board and drag their nails across it. Gee, or maybe they get really nasty and simply fart in their general direction until they give up the goods.
Right. There couldn’t possibly be anything worth being concerned about right and wrong or whether we have crossed the line. There is obviously nothing to see here.
And those that think like you clearly give aid and comfort to the enemy.
According to your warped kumbaya paternal need to take care of those that wish us harm - my dad tortured the shit out of me every other Saturday with his belt.
If they can walk out of the interrogation room with no physical harm done to them - it is not torture.
And I could care less if they hate us when they get out - what is the fucking difference? They hate us already.
Our guys are fully aware that if they are captured by the islamo-fascists - torure is the least of their problems.
And you guys want to pull out the fuicking Dr. Spock book for those we capture.
[/quote]
I think we also need to separate those who are supporting “alternative techniques” for purely sadistic puposes…Headhunter, Rainjack, etc…
and those of us interested in gathering good intelligence.
It’s pretty clear that Rainjacks’s, and HH’s, and Jeffr’s positions have nothing to do with the latter.
[quote]100meters wrote:
I think we also need to separate those who are supporting “alternative techniques” for purely sadistic puposes…Headhunter, Rainjack, etc…
and those of us interested in gathering good intelligence.
It’s pretty clear that Rainjacks’s, and HH’s, and Jeffr’s positions have nothing to do with the latter.
[/quote]
Then you have a severe reading comprehension problem.
It’s all about gathering intelligence on the enemy.
You want to give the prisoners a hug and call their parents. You think that if we are nice to them - they will be our friend. Newsflash, sparky - they hate us and want to drag your lifeless carcass through the streets.
I don’t want them for a friend. I want to know what they know, and am more than willing to douse them in pig fat to get it.
How in the fuck is that sadistic?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
And those that think like you clearly give aid and comfort to the enemy.[/quote]
This was childish and loosly understandable. I’m military. If anyone is NOT giving aid to our “enemies” it’s me. What does torturing people who may be innocent have to do with not giving aid? They go hand in hand? I am either for torturing everyone captured or I am for giving aid to the enemy? That is rather stupid and not even worth further discussion.
[quote]
According to your warped kumbaya paternal need to take care of those that wish us harm - my dad tortured the shit out of me every other Saturday with his belt. [/quote]
Fucking ridiculous again. if your dad took it upon himself to spank other people’s children whether they actually did anything wrong or not, how long do you think it would be before your dad was locked up?
[quote]
If they can walk out of the interrogation room with no physical harm done to them - it is not torture. [/quote]
Again, ridiculous. There are battered women who show no bruises until weeks after the assault or never at all aside from internal damage because they were beaten in places covered by hair or by soap covered in towels. Lack of physical evidence does not mean someone was not tortured. I can’t believe ANYONE is using that one. You could drown someone to near death and have no physical proof of it. Does that mean it didn’t happen?
[quote]
And I could care less if they hate us when they get out - what is the fucking difference? They hate us already. [/quote]
Right. Now they truly have reason to. Congrats, America.
Since when are we trying to be like our most primal enemy? How can you tell the good guys from the bad ones if they all act the same?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
100meters wrote:
I think we also need to separate those who are supporting “alternative techniques” for purely sadistic puposes…Headhunter, Rainjack, etc…
and those of us interested in gathering good intelligence.
It’s pretty clear that Rainjacks’s, and HH’s, and Jeffr’s positions have nothing to do with the latter.
Then you have a severe reading comprehension problem.
It’s all about gathering intelligence on the enemy.
You want to give the prisoners a hug and call their parents. You think that if we are nice to them - they will be our friend. Newsflash, sparky - they hate us and want to drag your lifeless carcass through the streets.
I don’t want them for a friend. I want to know what they know, and am more than willing to douse them in pig fat to get it.
How in the fuck is that sadistic?
[/quote]
Pigfat doesn’t get good intelligence.
If it’s not, then what other point is there?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
And those that think like you clearly give aid and comfort to the enemy.
This was childish and loosly understandable. I’m military. If anyone is NOT giving aid to our “enemies” it’s me. What does torturing people who may be innocent have to do with not giving aid? They go hand in hand? I am either for torturing everyone captured or I am for giving aid to the enemy? That is rather stupid and not even worth further discussion.[/quote]
Spare me. You are military for only one reason, and it has nothing to do with fighting a war.
Interrogation techniques have always involved mental breakdown of the prisoner. You act as if Bush just invented this. You know better - but are playing stupid, or in fact do sympathize with those we are fighting.
[quote]According to your warped kumbaya paternal need to take care of those that wish us harm - my dad tortured the shit out of me every other Saturday with his belt.
Fucking ridiculous again. if your dad took it upon himself to spank other people’s children whether they actually did anything wrong or not, how long do you think it would be before your dad was locked up?[/quote]
That is the stupidest analogy you ahve ever spouted.
[quote]If they can walk out of the interrogation room with no physical harm done to them - it is not torture.
Again, ridiculous. There are battered women who show no bruises until weeks after the assault or never at all aside from internal damage because they were beaten in places covered by hair or by soap covered in towels. Lack of physical evidence does not mean someone was not tortured. I can’t believe ANYONE is using that one. You could drown someone to near death and have no physical proof of it. Does that mean it didn’t happen?[/quote]
I didn’t say “no visable physical damage”. You need to read better before replying. It makes you look just plain stupid.
[quote]And I could care less if they hate us when they get out - what is the fucking difference? They hate us already.
Right. Now they truly have reason to. Congrats, America.[/quote]
What the fuck goes through your mind? I thik you are just looking for a sparrinfg session - as you are just being stupid. You think if we are nice to them, and just talk to them like human beings they will like us?
They want to tie your black ass to the bumper of their landcruiser and drag it throug the streets. You be nice to them if you think that will accomplish dick.
[quote]Our guys are fully aware that if they are captured by the islamo-fascists - torure is the least of their problems.
And you guys want to pull out the fuicking Dr. Spock book for those we capture.
Since when are we trying to be like our most primal enemy? How can you tell the good guys from the bad ones if they all act the same?
[/quote]
There’s where you fall off - you think dog shit and pork fat is torture. If the worst we do is waterboard a few of them - we are still taking a much higher road than any of the islamo-fascist murderers.
I am not trying to “be like” anyone. I think we should use every tool in the tool box to get information we need about our enemy.
Ask the poor prisoners in Abu Grahib right now if they wouldn’t give their collective left nuts to have the US back in charge of the prison.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
(A) How do know that Americans lose their lives through our ‘torturing’ terrorists?
[/quote]
SEE IRAQ!
No. That’s the whole point.
Rule 1. Create less evil.
Rule 2. Use effective tactics to cut the throats of existing evil, while following Rule 1.
Your interest in torture is for sadistic puposes only, (obviously) why not just say so?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Spare me. You are military for only one reason, and it has nothing to do with fighting a war.[/quote]
Regardless of my personal reasons for joining, I am still closer to action than YOU are.
[quote]
Interrogation techniques have always involved mental breakdown of the prisoner. You act as if Bush just invented this. You know better - but are playing stupid, or in fact do sympathize with those we are fighting. [/quote]
I don’t think Bush invented anything other than being super rich and overall fairly average yet STILL being able to become President. I applaud the man for that alone.
Interrogation is a part of war. the line gets real blurry when the prisoners are largely civilians who have not been found guilty in a court of law yet are being torchered for info. That is when some method of checks and balances needs to be in place and people like you need to stop relating any effort to draw a line in the sand of morality as weak or helping the enemy.
[quote]
That is the stupidest analogy you ahve ever spouted. [/quote]
It actually made perfect sense. Would your dad be allowed to spank your neighbor’s kids without them doing anything wrong? Is it right to torture someone who may be innocent without any sort of trial or determination as far as whether they are or not?
No, you were quite clear…and I made it even more crystal for you. lack of evidence does not mean no crime was committed.
No, dummy. I think we have no clue what is actually going on with these prisoners and it is idiotic to think your out in the middle of nowhere ass has the scoop on internal actions at a prison for war captives.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Pigfat doesn’t get good intelligence.
If it’s not, then what other point is there?[/quote]
That right there is the problem with the Birkenstock crowd. You have no idea whether it works or not. You don’t like the idea of it, and you don’t see any reports on CNN, or on the Daily Kos, or at MoveOn.org saying that because of our interrogation techniques we have saved ‘X’ lives.
If it wasn’t effective - we probably would not be doing it.
But go ahead and site some proof that applying mental stress doesn’t work.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
(A) How do know that Americans lose their lives through our ‘torturing’ terrorists?
SEE IRAQ!
(B) Could lives have been saved of which you are unaware, because it doesn’t get publicity when our guys extract info from some scumbag that prevents a terrorist attack?
No. That’s the whole point.
(C) Do you fight evil by going after it or by being Mr. Happy-Sappy Cuddlebear, who’d never swat a fly?
Rule 1. Create less evil.
Rule 2. Use effective tactics to cut the throats of existing evil, while following Rule 1.
Your interest in torture is for sadistic puposes only, (obviously) why not just say so?
[/quote]
You seem fascinated by this ‘sadism’ thing. There are websites where you can find a dominatrix and indulge all you want. Why parade this stuff here?
You are wierd.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I didn’t say “no visable physical damage”. You need to read better before replying. It makes you look just plain stupid.
No, you were quite clear…and I made it even more crystal for you. lack of evidence does not mean no crime was committed.[/quote]
Adding words to bend what I really said to what you want me to have said is not making things “crystal”. It is lying.
[quote]There’s where you fall off - you think dog shit and pork fat is torture. If the worst we do is waterboard a few of them - we are still taking a much higher road than any of the islamo-fascist murderers.
No, dummy. I think we have no clue what is actually going on with these prisoners and it is idiotic to think your out in the middle of nowhere ass has the scoop on internal actions at a prison for war captives.
[/quote]
You admit that we have no clue - so you assume torture, and worse. It is just as idiotic to think you have any more of a scoop than I do.
You have heard of the internet? Perhaps satellite TV? I actually get the WSJ out here.
Granted, it doubles as toilet paper in the outhouse, but the world is much smaller now than you need it to be for your lame insult to have any punch.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
You admit that we have no clue - so you assume torture, and worse. It is just as idiotic to think you have any more of a scoop than I do.
You have heard of the internet? Perhaps satellite TV? I actually get the WSJ out here.
Granted, it doubles as toilet paper in the outhouse, but the world is much smaller now than you need it to be for your lame insult to have any punch.
[/quote]
I do assume the worse because I understand human nature. I understand that absolute power corrupts absolutely and I understand that giving free reign to an entity designed to force info from people by any means necessary with no checks and balances is simply asking for trouble. That is, assuming you actually care about the difference between right and wrong and whether we might be crossing that line.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I do assume the worse because I understand human nature. I understand that absolute power corrupts absolutely and I understand that giving free reign to an entity designed to force info from people by any means necessary with no checks and balances is simply asking for trouble. That is, assuming you actually care about the difference between right and wrong and whether we might be crossing that line.[/quote]
The problem I see is the line I am concerned with crossing is much further away than the line you are worried about.
No one has absolute power. Not in the United States military. Not in the Oval Office.
To assume that I don’t care about right or wrong because I am in favor of interrogation techniques that you consider torture is not correct.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Forgive me for sounding like hspder, but I was at a seminar with probably the most prominent intelligence historian in the world a couple of months ago, and he said simply, “If waterboarding isn’t torture, it begs the question ‘What is torture?’”[/quote]
I guess that’s rather the point of the whole argument, isn’t it?
We need a specific definition that allows interrogations with enough coercive force to be effective against someone withholding information, but that will not do lasting damage (and will not allow for gratuitous use of coercive force). I do not find most forms of sleep deprivation, standing, kneeling, what-have-you to be torture – temporary mental or physical discomfort should not qualify. And the argument that I wouldn’t want it done to me does not hold water – I wouldn’t want to be locked in prison either, but that’s not torture.
And we should have some guidelines concerning the level of certainty we need to possess concerning whether a person actually possesses information in order to use coercive techniques - I sympathize with the arguments against using coercive techniques on people as a “fishing expedition,” and would limit that as much as possible. I think this is a much bigger concern overall than if we use coercive interrogation techniques on the likes of known terrorists or in Nephorm’s hypothetical.
Anyone ever watch the Marathon man with Dustin Hoffman?
There is a point where he keeps getting tortured by drilling into his tooth and stimulating the tooth nerve to find out information about the diamonds.
I wish we did this to our prisoners if we thought they had useful information that would save lives…
[quote]rainjack wrote:
They want to tie your black ass to the bumper of their landcruiser and drag it throug the streets.[/quote]
So it’s OK for us to tie their brown asses to our humvees and drag them through the dunes 'til they talk?
See, my concern is not in giving aid or comfort to the enemy; it’s with not being evil barbaric fucks who have no regard for human life as long as their interests are served.
You seem to think that the best way to fight terrorists is to become just like them. I don’t. Having principles and respect for human dignity is more work, yes, but I think our children and grand kids will have more admiration for us if we’re distinguishable in some way from the nazi, Idi Amin, Saddam and Pol Pot. They kill, maim, murder and torture; we don’t. Or shouldn’t. Abu Graib is a disgrace, not a good start.
this is NOT torture. this is nothing compared to what they do to our captives. we could stoop to their level of torture and SLOWLY cut their heads off with hand saws. which actually, might get them thinking twice about being caught by us.
What dreadful arguments come up; even to consider torture in the pursuit of a “higher” purpose is already a failure regarding values of humanity. IMO it’s a moral, not a legal argument.
I think the discussion of what constitutes torture is and has always been a disgrace: Any purposefully induced physical or psychological suffering in a prisoner or detainee (who is at your mercy) is at least abuse.
And any state or organisation which sanctions or fosters this abuse is responsible for its worst consequences, regardless of who (proven terrorist, framed Afghan shepherder, or kidnapped innocent EU citizen) is subjected to it.
And for the case of Gitmo, it also always has to be said that the lack of due process makes the above distinction, if someone is actually innocent or guilty, mute.
Ceterum censeo: Secret prisons, unbalanced trials with secret evidence, and a sleazy attempt to justify abuse of detainees cannot be morally justified and is unamerican.
Makkun
[quote]rainjack wrote:
100meters wrote:
Pigfat doesn’t get good intelligence.
If it’s not, then what other point is there?
That right there is the problem with the Birkenstock crowd. You have no idea whether it works or not. You don’t like the idea of it, and you don’t see any reports on CNN, or on the Daily Kos, or at MoveOn.org saying that because of our interrogation techniques we have saved ‘X’ lives.
If it wasn’t effective - we probably would not be doing it.
But go ahead and site some proof that applying mental stress doesn’t work. [/quote]
Actually I haven’t heard any military, intelligence, law enforcement say it’s saved lives. I think that’s part of the reason they are against it. It’s kind of like you, Jeffr, HH, and the president against everybody who happens to know better.
“mental stress”–uhh if water-boarding worked we’d still be doing it right? We wouldn’t compromise on it right? If the tactics at abu ghraib (sp?) worked we’d still be doing it. Isn’t your own logic working against you here? I mean you do follow the news right? It seems unlikely the military would’ve updated their field manual in such away that lives weren’t saved, but they did.
Torture is lose/lose. Bad intel at the cost of retaliation. That’s bad, see?
And only every f–king expert agrees.