Our Gulag

[quote]five-twelve wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:

Use any tool necessary to win.

If saving lives occurs by using torture. And this is your description of “evil”. Then yes we should be “evil”.

How can someone possibly complain then when they murder our own men in the military if we are willing to act just like them?

The more time passes, the more I think Bin Ladin accomplished his goal in spades.

Who said anything about killing as a form of torture.[/quote]

Oh, right. We must be doing the “don’t worry, this is all a joke” type of torture. Does your world only come in the color “rose” and can you get optional “teddy bear” and “lollipop” icons with it?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:

Use any tool necessary to win.

If saving lives occurs by using torture. And this is your description of “evil”. Then yes we should be “evil”.

How can someone possibly complain then when they murder our own men in the military if we are willing to act just like them?

The more time passes, the more I think Bin Ladin accomplished his goal in spades.[/quote]

What makes you think that?

The Taliban that rule large parts of Afghanistan again, the record yield of raw opium out of Afghanistan which will be used to sponsor terrorism?

Or is it the quagmire in Iraq, the Sunni vs Shi`ite conflict or the fact that the Iran uses all of this to acquire nukes?

Or maybe the Muslims all around the world that are so pissed off that they planned and partly executed terror acts in the UK, Spain and Germany?

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:

Use any tool necessary to win.

If saving lives occurs by using torture. And this is your description of “evil”. Then yes we should be “evil”.

How can someone possibly complain then when they murder our own men in the military if we are willing to act just like them?

The more time passes, the more I think Bin Ladin accomplished his goal in spades.

What makes you think that?

The Taliban that rule large parts of Afghanistan again, the record yield of raw opium out of Afghanistan which will be used to sponsor terrorism?

Or is it the quagmire in Iraq, the Sunni vs Shi`ite conflict or the fact that the Iran uses all of this to acquire nukes?

Or maybe the Muslims all around the world that are so pissed off that they planned and partly executed terror acts in the UK, Spain and Germany?[/quote]

It was mostly because I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

But yeah, all of those reasons too.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I think this is true – but the argument stems from where to draw the line between barbaric and necessary.

Which is why there is a semantic debate over the definition of “torture.”

nephorm wrote:
Which is why, as I said before, torture isn’t defined by whether or not it is necessary. I wouldn’t even say it is a semantic debate… it’s a legal one. You can not argue right and wrong or necessary and unnecessary with a lawyer who is busy arguing legal or illegal.[/quote]

Sort of – the problem is that everyone (or just about everyone) who is in the debate has subscribed to the underlying premise that torture is unacceptable and on the barbaric side - but hasn’t defined “torture” - so then the debate becomes what qualifies as torture.

You’re correct in that the discussion would be much more productive without that debate, but the start of these threads kind of leads with that issue and then makes it highly difficult to move forward.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It was mostly because I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
[/quote]

Damn! Talk about torture!

[quote]BostonBarrister I think this is true – but the argument stems from where to draw the line between barbaric and necessary.

Which is why there is a semantic debate over the definition of “torture.”[/quote]

Another problem with torture is the well documented effect that people will say anything to escape it, so they’ll incriminate innocents, admit to crimes they didn’t do, etc. Basically, they’ll say whatever the torturer wants to hear.

The frequent example of the lone terrorist who’s the only one that knows where the nuclear bomb is hidden in the city of millions is probably not representative of most situations that occur.

Life is not an episode of 24.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Sort of – the problem is that everyone (or just about everyone) who is in the debate has subscribed to the underlying premise that torture is unacceptable and on the barbaric side - but hasn’t defined “torture” - so then the debate becomes what qualifies as torture.

You’re correct in that the discussion would be much more productive without that debate, but the start of these threads kind of leads with that issue and then makes it highly difficult to move forward.[/quote]

The problem is that you cannot gain a moral high-ground just by changing definitions around, which is what everyone seems to want to do.

Oh well.

[quote]pookie wrote:
BostonBarrister I think this is true – but the argument stems from where to draw the line between barbaric and necessary.

Which is why there is a semantic debate over the definition of “torture.”

Another problem with torture is the well documented effect that people will say anything to escape it, so they’ll incriminate innocents, admit to crimes they didn’t do, etc. Basically, they’ll say whatever the torturer wants to hear.

The frequent example of the lone terrorist who’s the only one that knows where the nuclear bomb is hidden in the city of millions is probably not representative of most situations that occur.

Life is not an episode of 24.
[/quote]

OMG, are you trying to say that all those witches were innocent and only confessed and pointed to others to avoid further pain?

That could not possibly be right, couldn`t it?

I mean the fact alone that there were so many of them proves that they exist!

[quote]pookie wrote:
The frequent example of the lone terrorist who’s the only one that knows where the nuclear bomb is hidden in the city of millions is probably not representative of most situations that occur.

Life is not an episode of 24.
[/quote]

That’s a problem only when the interrogator has no actual information, and is basically using torture as a fishing expedition.

If you start with some solid information, and really stress them to the point where they will “say anything,” then if they know the information you already have (and have not revealed to them), they’re going to corroborate it, and you can continue from there.

[quote]five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.[/quote]
If torture doesn’t save one american life and in fact results in the loss of lots of lives, then I say do whatever else it takes.

Seems like a no-brainer.

[quote]five-twelve wrote:
Your not understanding me…

If torture will save one American solider I don’t care what happens. Obviously the people that are conducting the torture understand if a prisoner has information or not depending on what they do.

But to not get into a gray area I will say this again. If torture will save one American solider I don’t care what happens. [/quote]
It’s only costing the lives of our soldiers. Hence military against it.

If our soldiers are being tortured and killed, usually just for being Americans, why can’t we use mild forms of torture (loud music, cold water, etc) to get real intel?

Since terrorists obey no rules, we’re fools to nitpik over this. Clearly define what our interrogators may do, then do it. The vermin won’t follow ANY decent rules anyway.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If our soldiers are being tortured and killed, usually just for being Americans, why can’t we use mild forms of torture (loud music, cold water, etc) to get real intel?

Since terrorists obey no rules, we’re fools to nitpik over this. Clearly define what our interrogators may do, then do it. The vermin won’t follow ANY decent rules anyway.

[/quote]
If torture doesn’t work and in the end cost americans more lives…then why in the hell would you do it?

what’s nitpicking to you could very well be US civilian or military loss of life.

Of course you don’t care, I know, but still alot of us do.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.

What if torture kills five innocent men? [/quote]

Then it is not torture - it is murder. How is having a bunch of terrorists sleeping in dogshit going to kill anyone? Pig fat dripping from the ceiling is hardly fatal.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.

What if torture kills five innocent men?

Then it is not torture - it is murder. How is having a bunch of terrorists sleeping in dogshit going to kill anyone? Pig fat dripping from the ceiling is hardly fatal.

[/quote]

Right. And what happens when someone takes extreme offense to sleeping in dog shit and we create generations of rebels against what is going on? Be sure to tell your future grandchildren that the wars they will be fighting stemmed from something that was “hardly fatal”.

In torture, if you don’t fear the loss of life or fatal injury, it isn’t really torture. Even if it is mind play, if you believe it is no big deal, I can only imagine the stress in your life has been relatively minor up to this point.

But clearly, those who think like you have downplayed this to the point that you actually walk around believing that the most captured prisoners are dealing with is a minor inconvenience…like maybe they leave the lights on so they can’t sleep well.

Or…or maybe the get a big chalk board and drag their nails across it. Gee, or maybe they get really nasty and simply fart in their general direction until they give up the goods.

Right. There couldn’t possibly be anything worth being concerned about right and wrong or whether we have crossed the line. There is obviously nothing to see here.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
pookie wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.

So when other countries torture your soldiers and/or captured citizens – to save at least one life of their own, of course – you’ll have no problem with that, right?

How is what occurs to our soliders and civilians captured in Iraq any different? I don’t think cutting off the heads of captured soliders and civilians is part of the Geneva Convention do you?

We are playing by different rules. And it is obviously not working.

So, to fight evil, we must become evil?[/quote]

That’s the crux of the issue right there.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I’d feel a lot better about this if someone would just say “yes, we use mild forms of torture which are stutorily limited.” Instead, there’s a sort of doublespeak going on.

C: “There is no torture.”
L: “Yes there is, look at X”
C: “X isn’t torture”
L: “According to Y, X is torture and can leave lasting impact Z”
C: “Well, if X is what it takes, then X is what we should do.”

In this scenario (and most scenarios) everyone is conveniently talking around each other. By denying that there is a such thing as torture (we have “interrogation techniques,” instead) one side gives the impression of wishing to avoid any sort of oversight on the methods employed. The other side is getting too worked up over the definition to bother to wonder if maybe such methods are required by the situation.

So here you go: Yes, there is torture. Yes, there are times when torture is called for and necessary. No, this is not extreme torture, and it is limited.[/quote]

That’s a very honest answer, even if I don’t agree with it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.

What if torture kills five innocent men?

Then it is not torture - it is murder. How is having a bunch of terrorists sleeping in dogshit going to kill anyone? Pig fat dripping from the ceiling is hardly fatal.

Right. And what happens when someone takes extreme offense to sleeping in dog shit and we create generations of rebels against what is going on? Be sure to tell your future grandchildren that the wars they will be fighting stemmed from something that was “hardly fatal”.

In torture, if you don’t fear the loss of life or fatal injury, it isn’t really torture. Even if it is mind play, if you believe it is no big deal, I can only imagine the stress in your life has been relatively minor up to this point.

But clearly, those who think like you have downplayed this to the point that you actually walk around believing that the most captured prisoners are dealing with is a minor inconvenience…like maybe they leave the lights on so they can’t sleep well.

Or…or maybe the get a big chalk board and drag their nails across it. Gee, or maybe they get really nasty and simply fart in their general direction until they give up the goods.
[/quote]

Exactly. We’re not talking about Motley Crue at high decibels. Forced sleep deprivation, dousing a naked man in ice cold water and forcing him to stand in fifty degree weather, using rectal thermometers to make sure he doesn’t die, and waterboarding - if these aren’t torture, what is? I am completely baffled that anyone (BB) would argue this isn’t torture.

Forgive me for sounding like hspder, but I was at a seminar with probably the most prominent intelligence historian in the world a couple of months ago, and he said simply, “If waterboarding isn’t torture, it begs the question ‘What is torture?’”

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
BTW, here’s the definition of “Prisoners of War” from Article 4:

[i] ARTICLE 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

(1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

(2) The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention. [/i][/quote]

I’ll certainly concede that terrorists aren’t offered POW protections under the Geneva Conventions, and neither are insurgents (there is a difference between the two, even if they both kill our soldiers and their countrymen). My argument here is far more moral than it is legal, but you clearly fall into the John Yoo camp. Remember him, the Justice Department lawyer who said Bush has the legal right to torture the children of our enemies if he deems it necessary?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
five-twelve wrote:
If torture will save one american from being killed, I say do whatever it takes.

What if torture kills five innocent men?

Then it is not torture - it is murder. How is having a bunch of terrorists sleeping in dogshit going to kill anyone? Pig fat dripping from the ceiling is hardly fatal.

Right. And what happens when someone takes extreme offense to sleeping in dog shit and we create generations of rebels against what is going on? Be sure to tell your future grandchildren that the wars they will be fighting stemmed from something that was “hardly fatal”.

In torture, if you don’t fear the loss of life or fatal injury, it isn’t really torture. Even if it is mind play, if you believe it is no big deal, I can only imagine the stress in your life has been relatively minor up to this point.

But clearly, those who think like you have downplayed this to the point that you actually walk around believing that the most captured prisoners are dealing with is a minor inconvenience…like maybe they leave the lights on so they can’t sleep well.

Or…or maybe the get a big chalk board and drag their nails across it. Gee, or maybe they get really nasty and simply fart in their general direction until they give up the goods.

Right. There couldn’t possibly be anything worth being concerned about right and wrong or whether we have crossed the line. There is obviously nothing to see here. [/quote]

And those that think like you clearly give aid and comfort to the enemy.

According to your warped kumbaya paternal need to take care of those that wish us harm - my dad tortured the shit out of me every other Saturday with his belt.

If they can walk out of the interrogation room with no physical harm done to them - it is not torture.

And I could care less if they hate us when they get out - what is the fucking difference? They hate us already.

Our guys are fully aware that if they are captured by the islamo-fascists - torure is the least of their problems.

And you guys want to pull out the fuicking Dr. Spock book for those we capture.